Nobles' Club 291: Boudica of the Celts

Deity is a crazy difficulty level, tho. Some maps simply aren't winnable.
I think you're being overly despondant about your own position in this game. @CarpoolKaraoke has beaten me to demonstrating a 3 city rush but I would have said you were in a better position at turn 57 than I was and by turn 110 I feel like this map is going fairly well (could be I'm really naive of course!)

Spoiler Write up to T110 :
I settled on the ivory for the production bonus, the rivers and keeping the cow. I had a strong suspicion/hope that the tile 1W of corn would be copper or horses.

Same tech path as CarpoolKaraoke. Agriculture was obvious, then I figured that AH would be good to improve cows in the capital and that I'd need to improve cows in second city for the second city to have any value. I think in my game AH was a mistake as it obligated me to go TW-> pottery afterwards or go broke therefore delaying BW significantly. Aside from losing the good spots, lack of BW meant I didn't have anywhere to put cottages slowing my tech pace.

Spoiler Asoka, no! :
Civ4ScreenShot0049.JPG


Anyway, Jewish holy city winning the cultural battle and taking my capital's tiles made early war with Asoka imperative. I was hoping to get the pigs spot but my whipped settler was too late. Realising I'd be at war with Asoka before too long I used my settler to gift Ragnar a city to get him to pleased and reduce risk of war before I could afford it or a backstab later.

Spoiler Is this how you treat all your gifts? :
Civ4ScreenShot0050.JPG


I'd read this map from early on as a construction rush - didn't really realise axerush on deity could be so successful. After writing I turned off my slider, whipped a library in the capital and went for the maths bulb whilst slowly teching masonry and horseback riding - turned the slider back on when I had enough gold for construction and finished horseback riding a few turns after construction.

Ragnar, Hatshepsut and Joao all offered me fishing which I guess is a bit of an insult!

Spoiler No thank you, for the third time :
Civ4ScreenShot0052.JPG


Horseback riding was good for trading - I got alphabet, iron working and polytheism out of it as well as some gold.

Spoiler Happy to face horsearchers with war elephants... :
Civ4ScreenShot0053.JPG


In the run up to war I was offered to join wars against Mansa and Hammurabi which I took for relations - slightly irritated that Hatshepsut later got bribed on Ragnar - long-term discord is good but in the short term I've lost credit with Hatshepsut for trading with Ragnar. I begged fishing from Hatshepsut before DOW on Asoka and 10 gold from Joao.

I don't think I chopped more than one forest before construction was in and then cleared the whole lot (all pre-chopped) in the next few turns. Declared war turn 102 which is probably really late - I have very little success with deity construction rushes. I've now captured Asoka's second and third cities and with 2 shrines, The Pyramids and a bunch of other wonders am feeling pretty happy about life. Hopefuly I can take Delhi and either take peace or get a bit more conquest gold for smashing up some more of his junk cities after that.

Spoiler All the money :
Civ4ScreenShot0054.JPG
Civ4ScreenShot0055.JPG


Questions:
1. Should I risk my woodsman 2 warrior (who could later be woodsman 3) to kill Asoka's great merchant? I'm leaning heavily towards yes, as it would deny Asoka any immediate benefit hedged against the chance there's an amazing quadruple fish city in the ice that I could take later and enjoy the rewards of a settled great merchant... If the warrior moves, there's no other unit with movement points to guard him.
2. Should I pay 25 gold for peace with Mansa and Hammurabi? Would lose my shared war bonuses but it's on offer now, is fairly cheap and might not be available later - I think I should take it whilst I can.
Spoiler Kill the merchant? :
Civ4ScreenShot0056.JPG

 

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Spoiler Army and wonders :
Civ4ScreenShot0058.JPG
Civ4ScreenShot0057.JPG


Spoiler Future plans :
I should be able to get some trade value out of code of laws. My economy should be not too bad with those shrines, a lot of riverside grassland cottages (not very developed sadly) and The Pyramids. Music looks impossible which is a shame as I could have used a golden age. Will need iron +/- horses for the future...
Spoiler Trades :
Civ4ScreenShot0059.JPG
 
7 happy cap makes me want to get a granary up asap. Skip AH, go BW --> Pottery.
Not sure whether the map is friendly with that idea or not.
Good plan, I like the way you think.
To expand on that : SIP gets the earliest Granary in Bibracte. This is because SIP gets the most tiles to improve.
A forest spam doesn't suit Boudica too well. Keeping the ivory as a workable tile results in excess commerce (+2) from as early as T25
As it happens, SIP, farm, camp, mine gives just the time to research Bronze Working to keep the worker(s) busy.

2760 BC :
Spoiler :


This Granary can be completed before 2000 BC.
 
I think you're being overly despondant about your own position in this game. @CarpoolKaraoke has beaten me to demonstrating a 3 city rush but I would have said you were in a better position at turn 57 than I was and by turn 110 I feel like this map is going fairly well (could be I'm really naive of course!)
In hindsight this is arguably a good point, after seeing @CarpoolKaraoke's rush. Had I tried that from three cities instead of trying to expand peacefully, maybe it would have been possible to pull off something in my game too. Now it feels too late, and especially after seeing some screens in world builder, knowing where the AIs are etc. I could have tried again, but I always dislike replaying maps, because then I play with map knowledge and it's just different :sad: Although I had a very nice Deity experience in BOTM recently, Deity is still pretty new to me, and I'm not at all comfortable on the level. Everything you do has to be "all in", so turning around now, 40 turns later (too late) or something, wouldn't go very well. Blink, and there are longbows and 60% culture.
 
Hmm, darnit. I picked up the mantle again. T100.
Spoiler :
Not long into the session, Hammurabi GIFTS us Alpha. That helps a lot! :banana:
Spoiler :
Lemon Merchant NC 291-T80 alpha gift.jpg

Ragnar stole my spot in the south, but turns out he settled in a weird way. Much later I learnt that he settled on top of iron, so made at least a little sense then. It actually allowed us to settle to the south. Needs border expansion to grab the fish, but with the lake it's perhaps defensible.
Spoiler :
Lemon Merchant NC 291-T82 iceball city.jpg

I assumed trying for an axe 'rush' at this point, on Deity, would be beyond silly, so I hoped to get up to elephants instead. However, in T86 the tech situation does.. not.. look.. good.
Spoiler :
Lemon Merchant NC 291-T86 techs.jpg

Ragnar then asks for alpha, which I give to him. At least we are safe from his plotting for 10 turns, which is something. In T92 I get Currency from Mansa for Aesthetics+Math+45g. Three-ish AIs lacked it, so I assumed it would be possible to get Monarchy at least, maybe more. But no, between turns EVERYBODY gets Currency, so I get zero for it. Just a waste of time and beakers. Well, it's nice to have, but trade-wise it was a failure.

Since I wasn't going to have anything to get Monarchy++ with, I went for Compass. This allowed some trades, though I did perhaps go a little overboard while stuff was on the table.
Spoiler :
Lemon Merchant NC 291-T100 techs log.jpg

That leads to this tech situation.
Spoiler :
Lemon Merchant NC 291-T100 tech tree.jpg


Lemon Merchant NC 291-T100 techs.jpg

I go HR+OR and line up elephants and catapults. Asoka doesn't have Feudalism yet, but I can't imagine it's far away. With no war, nor plotting, everybody are trading and teching like madhatters. Well... except Ragnar. He seems a little out of the loop. Asoka has built a bunch of wonders, but only one shrine, which isn't all that great (Christianity). I'm naturally worried about several AIs having Civil Service already, plus Feudalism, but I need to try. Chop out a bigger army (have some axes and gallics), and try to take on Asoka. With luck, we manage to power over him without others butting in.

Apart from the size 1 iceball (monument is up), this is our puny empire.
Spoiler :
Lemon Merchant NC 291-T100 map.jpg
 
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Hmm, darnit. I picked up the mantle again. T100.

Spoiler :

View attachment 615910
I go HR+OR and line up elephants and catapults. Asoka doesn't have Feudalism yet, but I can't imagine it's far away. With no war, nor plotting, everybody are trading and teching like madhatters. Well... except Ragnar. He seems a little out of the loop. Asoka has built a bunch of wonders, but only one shrine, which isn't all that great (Christianity). I'm naturally worried about several AIs having Civil Service already, plus Feudalism, but I need to try. Chop out a bigger army (have some axes and gallics), and try to take on Asoka. With luck, we manage to power over him without others butting in.

View attachment 615911


Spoiler :


The fact that several AI have Civil Service at 375 BC is crazy. Good luck in your campaign!

 
Spoiler Write up to T110 :


Questions:
1. Should I risk my woodsman 2 warrior (who could later be woodsman 3) to kill Asoka's great merchant? I'm leaning heavily towards yes, as it would deny Asoka any immediate benefit hedged against the chance there's an amazing quadruple fish city in the ice that I could take later and enjoy the rewards of a settled great merchant... If the warrior moves, there's no other unit with movement points to guard him.
2. Should I pay 25 gold for peace with Mansa and Hammurabi? Would lose my shared war bonuses but it's on offer now, is fairly cheap and might not be available later - I think I should take it whilst I can.



Spoiler :


1. I'm pretty sure it just kills instead of capturing.
2. Since they're the wrong religion, probably not.

 
The fact that several AI have Civil Service at 375 BC is crazy. Good luck in your campaign!
I tried, but this is just stupid. When HAs beat war elephants as well, yeah, screw this. Too dumb.
Spoiler :
Asoka gets maces in 350BC, so that war is out before it began.
Lemon Merchant NC 291-T101 Asoka maces.jpg


Instead I turn to the only person that isn't teching at neckbreak speed: Ragnar. Think this is when I declared. Superlate ofc, but what are you gonna do... :sad:
Lemon Merchant NC 291-T109 DOW Ragnar.jpg


We manage to take Bjørgvin, and then raze the size 1 iceball-iron city. He invades and besieges Vienne. I get up a Dun and get some units in there.
Lemon Merchant NC 291-T119 Vienne siege.jpg


Lose more units than we should, but at least the stack dies.
Lemon Merchant NC 291-T120 Vienne siege.jpg


Okay, game, I see you are showing both middle fingers by now. A stupid map has gone full ret***, and I give up (again).
Lemon Merchant NC 291-T122 ******ed combat.jpg


As you can see, Ragnar has longbows now, and as usual there is at least one more every turn in the city we are camped outside.

Asoka is also plotting. Probably on me, because why not.

Deity is great at sapping the lifeforce out of me. This was not fun. At all.

:thumbsdown::sad: :(
 

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Oh the Celts :cool: I didn't play the previous Brennus game, because around that time I just moved up to Monarch and was not very comfortable with the new level, so I decided to skip that one and play some off-line games with FIN leaders instead. But now I feel more at ease at Monarch. So let's start the game :rockon:

Boudica's traits are decent. CHA is certainly good. AGG is useful for a potential early rush; stronger warriors work well against early barbs. Plus, Boudica's melee units only need 28 exp to reach Woods III Medic III promotion. But Celtic starting techs are terrible :sad:.

Wet corn is nice. If playing as Willem or Ragnar, I would SIP, because for FIN leaders who start with Fishing, the lake tile can immediately provide 2:food: 3:commerce:, a slight research boost before BW and Pot. But the Celts have no Fishing, thus the lake becomes less appealing. Settling on Ivory looks better than SIP for the Celts.

Monarch from T0 to T115.
Spoiler :

My game until T115 was blessed by some lucky events :jesus:.

Settings as below, no tribal villages:


Admittedly, the start was really slow, especially for Hunt + Myst combo. Settled on Ivory. My early tech path was a little chaotic and I don't think I made the best choice, Agri-Mining-AH-TW-BW-Pot. The Celtic starting techs made me feel "I lack everything but cannot research everything at the same time" :(.

T66, lucky discovery of gold :jesus: :

(yes, many forests need to be chopped; I should have built more workers :blush:)

Another lucky thing was Asoka oracled Theology instead of Feudalism. If Asoka had grabbed Feudalism with oracle, my attack would have been much slower.

Construction attack Asoka. During the war with Asoka, the third lucky thing happened: Annoyed Hatty demanded Currency from me and I gave it to her. I surely needed this precious peace treaty to avoid a two-front war :satan:

CHA leader with captured SH :cooool:. But this city might give me some unwanted GProphets :nono:. I was already traumatised by GProphets in NC 260 :wallbash:


Asoka was sent to heaven in 1AD:


As Asoka had no longbows, I just attacked with catapults and didn't wait for WE:


The barbs near tundra were troublesome:


Ragnar's price is a little high, but he's the only one who can be bribed in this game. Maybe I should accept this deal :undecide:.


 
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Spoiler Diety T115 (1AD) :


Mostly just an intuition check on conquest rewards and economic rebound from axe rush.

Big haul from peace treaty (Metal Casting/Masonry/Fishing/Polytheism/Meditation) + some follow up trades on Aesthetics.

Screenshot (470).png


75 BC Civil Service. 9 Cities, +276 BPT max at 1 AD. A surprising 3rd in rankings.

Screenshot (471).png


Really big contrast in terms of global tech pace (2 wars total: mine + Egyptians vs Vikings):

Screenshot (473).png


With no horse and the dun, optimal target for liberalism is probably Steel.


 
Spoiler :

but even Monty wouldn't be that suicidal.
Initially I thought you were talking about Sitting Bull, but after I met every AIs, I realised you were talking about Hammy :lol:.

Sending Gallic Warriors against SB has an effect similar to throwing them into Bowmen. :lol:


@Pangaea
Spoiler :

Lemon Merchant will be remembered by many people :(.

Admittedly I don't think this map is for trying a new difficulty level. But the AIs in your game are just too crazy. OMG T31 settling near your capital? 350BC maces? HA killed WE? all those just seem unrealistic :crazyeye: :faint: Some surprisingly bad luck have come to your game :(.


@5tephen
Spoiler :

Your war went well and captured some nice things :goodjob:
Everyone except Joao is at war - your game is bloody indeed :lol:
 
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HA killed WE?
It "only" was a Combat2-Formation War Elephant, so the horse archer probably fancied its chances...

Anyway, incredibly demotivating when a game goes so hard to hell like that. It's why I have avoided Deity for years, because it too often leads to depressive stuff like that, which just makes me hate the game. So few real options and so easy for things to spiral out of control. Immortal tends to be too easy, but at least it's fun most of the time, even if a win is almost guaranteed. It's why I appreciated and tried out the demigod difficulty. However, in reality it's basically Deity, it's just a little less hard in the first 30-50 turns because the AIs expand less rapid, which also means barbs can be a little slower to invade. But everything else is full-on Deity, including all the bonuses, which is what really matters. The game should have had a difficulty, a true one, between Immortal and Deity. Certainly would be room for it given the big gap in bonuses and such between Immortal and Deity.

Sometimes I've thought about making a mini-mod where the human has the same bonuses as the Deity AI, just to see how absurd it would be.
 
Isn't that basically Settler difficulty?
Kind of I suppose, but in reverse. Except units don't come at half price and such there, they still cost the regular amount from what I recall. Tech costs may be roughly the same, though, because those are much cheaper on Settler than human-Deity.
 
Spoiler Diety T144 (680 AD) :


The food heavy city of Delhi builds the National Epic + Globe Theatre, and spits out post-Academy GP for 1) Education, 2) Golden Age 3) Printing Press, and 4) Chemistry. We become the points leader, and use liberalism to acquire Steel in 680 AD. On the last turn of the golden age, I swap to Nationalism, Slavery, and Theology.


Screenshot (474).png


The plan is to start the attack with Ragnar, who has been sapped of strength by being the worst enemy of well, everyone. He still doesn't have Feudalism. 11 Dun-promoted Muskets and 4 trebs can go while I continue to build Cannons and draft Muskets. Delhi will take a late stab at the Taj Mahal with marble.

Screenshot (476).png


Tech situation suggest I have a plenty long window to campaign before the AI acquires any critical defense.

Screenshot (475).png



 
Deity NH/NE - Conquest 1550 AD

Spoiler :

Finally found time to play some Civ 4 again. Thanks for hosting the Nobles Club Series, I really enjoyed playing this map! :thumbsup:

Settled on the ivory and teched Agriculture->AH->Wheel->Pottery->Mining->BW. Postponing BW this long was probably not the optimal choice, but I was afraid I would never get anywhere with my techs consindering the low commerce of the start and the bad starting techs of the celts. Started with a worker and went for 2 settlers at size 3. I placed my second city in the southeast to claim the nice river (for commerce reasons) and to block off Ragnar.
2600BC.jpg


My plan to settle my third city 3 west of the capital was thwarted by India, who settled right at my border. In hindsight, this was not too bad beacuse it made me go for the horse/pigs spot instead.
2440 BC.jpg


Having secured the horses, I decided to go for a HA-attack on india. This was mainly because Asoka kept tempting me with workers right at my border and didnt really defend his city. Given his weak defenses, I figured waiting for construction was a waste especiallly considering my weak research. Things took a bit longer than hoped for, but I managed to take Vijayanagara by 550 BC.
550BC.jpg


By 225 BC, I had captured 2 more cities and made peace for techs (if I remember correctly, he gave me metal casting for it).
225 BC.jpg


At some point I switched into budhism, mainly to try to keep ragnar from attacking me. He was busy fighting other people however, mainly Mansa. Having Ragnar as a neighbor proved helpful here, he was a real crap magnet and got dowed by egypt 2 times, who kept bribing in Mansa. Egypt was the most dangerous AI during the most part of the game, things would have taken a turn for the worse had she gone for me and not beaten on Ragnar.

With the idea of going for a cuirassier rush, I teched to Nationalism but soon realized that there was no way I could win lib, tech pace of the game was just too rapid. Egypt won liberalism by 560 AD, but at least I got the Taj Mahal. I got out 2 great merchants and teched to steel. My rational behind going steel over Military Tradition was that I was afraid of people getting a very early rifling, cannons are viable longer than cuirassiers in my opinion. Getting to steel and assembling an army took me until 1080 AD, I upgraded ~25 trebuchets to cannons and attacked egypt with two stacks while her main army was in Ragnars territory. At that point of the game I was rather scared of egypt, she had three vassals and kept teching like a maniac. Too bad she went for the wrong techs to defend from my attack :mischief:

1090 AD.jpg


Taking her land proved a lot easier than anticipated, her stack was destroyed by Ragnar and I could just capture her cities. The only downside was that she wouldn't capitulte due to her vassals, so I took her out completely. She even built the Kremlin in her capital 2 turns before I could take it, thank you Hatshepsut :goodjob: Hammurabi on the other hand capitultated without having to capture a city,so I continued straight for Ragnar who was the greatest threat to my victory. I took his first city at 1350 AD and rolled over him with cannons and rifling, like egypt he was a lot less problematic than I had thought.

1350AD.jpg


From that point on the game was basically won, Joao gave me the most trouble out of all AIs in the game and kept dragging out the inevitable until 1550 AD, when he finally gave in.

My statistics after winning the game:
victory statistics.jpg


I also want to show you my capital, which became really awesome and had to do most of the heavy lifting research-wise:
victory capital.jpg



 
Monarch from 1AD to the end:

Spoiler :

Settings as below, no huts:


Accepted Ragnar's offer and bribed him to attack Joao. They were busy killing each other for several centuries then made peace. Got Ragnar to Friendly through HR + shared religion.
5 or 6 turns after Ragnar was Friendly, he started plotting:hmm:.

According to "Know you enemies", Ragnar's game code includes:
Builds units: 10/10
Can plot war at Friendly: Nope :cool:
So his target could not be me. :whew:

Actually, his target turned out to be Mansa:


By contrast, the human player (me)'s code includes:
Builds units: 100/10:ar15:
Can plot war at Friendly: Yes :ar15:
Soon my numberless Cuirs shall destroy you all :ar15:

It seemed Ragnar sent all his army to Mali and only had some swords or axes in his western borders :satan::


During the war with Ragnar, Mansa peaceful vassal:


And Ragnar quickly capitulated :devil::


Hatty capitulated on T186:


Boudica's melee units only needs 28 exp to reach Wood III and Medic III :love:, compared to 50 exp for the leaders who are neither CHA nor AGG.


Joao capitulated on T191


Formation Cuir lost to a Knight, how could it be possible :gripe:


Hammy disappeared on T197:


Next turn, conquest:


Pre-built some WE and upgraded them to Cuirs:


Some AIs were competent techers, but they all went after things like DR or Drama. Joao got Gunpowder only after his capitulation:


TBH, I don't think my gameplay has much value, because the early gold pop-up in the capital largely improved my tech rate. Without that gold, the win date would have been much later.


Thanks for the map :)
 
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