On the Wehrmacht of WW2...

[Case]

I must say that the number of people nominating the German Army of WW2 as their favourite military of all time is rather disturbing. Let's not forget that that Army played a critical role in the Nazis rise to power and was responsible for launching numerous wars of agression which lead the the deaths of tens of millions of people and an all-out attempt to impose medieval government on much of Europe.

The German Army was complicit in all the Nazis crimes, and was primarily responsible for more then a few of them (the repeated invasions of neutral countries in 1939-41 and the mass-murder of Soviet POWs in 1941-42 for example).

In short, it was the morally bankrupt instrument and partner of a warmongering and genocidal regime.

This kind-of outweighs the coolness of the MG-42 or the brilliance of the May 1940 campaign in France (which, let's not forget, resulted in no less then four democracies falling under the jack-boot of what was probably the most hideous government of the twentieth century).

 

[yaroslav]

Case :b::b::b: I couldn't agree more. German WWII army was a instrument of evil and is overrated imho. France could have done a lot more against Germany back in 1939, for instance.

 

[nonconformist]

I must say that the number of people nominating the German Army of WW2 as their favourite military of all time is rather disturbing. Let's not forget that that Army played a critical role in the Nazis rise to power and was responsible for launching numerous wars of agression which lead the the deaths of tens of millions of people and an all-out attempt to impose medieval government on much of Europe.

The German Army was complicit in all the Nazis crimes, and was primarily responsible for more then a few of them (the mass-murder of Soviet POWs in 1941-42 for example).

In short, it was a morally bankrupt instrument of a genocidal regime.

This kind-of outweighs the coolness of the MG-42 or the brilliance of the May 1940 campaign in France (which, let's not forget, resulted in no less then four democracies falling under the jack-boot of what was probably the most hideous government of the twentieth century).

True; but remember that the Wehrmacht did nothing the Red Army didn't, and little the Allies didn't. Quite a few (if not a majority) of the Wehrmacht were innocent-remember war of aggression is only a modern crime.
Also, in the massice anti-Nazi denunciations of 1945/6, no one ever condemned the Wehrmacht.

 

[Case]

True; but remember that the Wehrmacht did nothing the Red Army didn't, and little the Allies didn't.

...so, through use of moral relatism we don't need to acknowledge that the German Army was morally bankrupt and played a critical role in causing the greatest disaster in human history? We can just forget those things, and celebrate it's cool hardware and smart tacticans while ignoring the purposes that hardware and those people were enthusiastically working towards?

Surely you don't think that the US and British Armies helped a genocidal government gain power and maintained this government in power, that these armies took part in the conquest and brutal subjectation of neutral countries, that they murdered hundreds of thousands of POWs or that they assisted with the greatest crime in human history?

remember war of aggression is only a modern crime.

It was a crime at the time. Which is why all the responsible generals were hung or jailed after the war. And even when it wasn't a crime that didn't make launching wars of agression acceptable.

 

[nonconformist]

Surely you don't think that the US and British Armies helped a genocidal government gain power and maintained this government in power, that these armies took part in the conquest and brutal subjectation of neutral countries, that they murdered hundreds of thousands of POWs or that they assisted with the greatest crime in human history?

Genocide wasn't part of the agenda until 1942, well after the nazi ascention to power.

 

[Mescalhead]

I must say that the number of people nominating the German Army of WW2 as their favourite military of all time is rather disturbing. Let's not forget that that...........Nazis were bad...............................This kind-of outweighs the coolness of the MG-42 or the brilliance of the May 1940 campaign in France (which, let's not forget, resulted in no less then four democracies falling under the jack-boot of what was probably the most hideous government of the twentieth century).

We are happy that you don't like Nazis. Most people don't. Nothing of what you are saying is a big surprise or of a rare perspective. Please realize why they are nominating the Wermacht as the most impressive military. Hint: It has nothing to do with philanthropy.

I learn a great deal in these forums, please don't cause people to be silenced for simply sharing information. It has happened enough.

And I guess the Mongols weren't recent enough to suffer your admonitions?

 

[Mescalhead]

Actually, the topic is asking about your "favorite military". I make no excuses for being concerned about people then nomitating the Wermacht, presumably for its tactical abilities, when the full story of the German Army in this period is, quite simply, shameful.

You've said that, and I'm real proud of you for taking the moral high-ground and denigrating the Nazis, but to clear things up, the thread was started in relation to many other threads which talk about people's favorite military in regards to prowess and efficiency. Many of these can be found easily by searching past threads.

Incidently, I'm less then impressed by you editing my post in the section you quoted in order to misinterpret my argument.

As if they cannot go back and read the actual post. I don't know, I would think it obvious to anyone that I edited your post, so you can rest easy.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

@Mescalhead - pls leave the moderating to me, thanks.

And I believe that Case has a very valid concern, which we can continue discussing in this new thread.

 

[Reno]

Surely you don't think that the US and British Armies helped a genocidal government gain power and maintained this government in power, that these armies took part in the conquest and brutal subjectation of neutral countries, that they murdered hundreds of thousands of POWs or that they assisted with the greatest crime in human history?

Actualy, they did or atleast the US and British goverments did help the rise of Hitler to power in Germany, by doing nothing when Germany annexed Austria and Tsechslovakia. And all the while they knew exactly what was Hitler's intensions with the jews and other ethnic groups.

 

[privatehudson]

They had their reasons, just as many other europeans had their reasons to side with Nazi Germany as allies or within her armies.

 

[Gelion]

Yeah and nowadays SS and other pro-German troops in the Baltic states are praised as heros and the Red Army soldiers of 80 years old tried for crimes. Army does terrible things in almost any war, so I'm sure there were warcrimes on both sides.
But praising Nazi and SS soldiers is a first step to return toward fascism. So I cetainly agree with you Case.

 

[privatehudson]

As groups I have no problem with remembering, and if necessary (based on what they did) praising the fight of the non-SS ethnic minorities in the German Wermacht myself. As individuals, based on their record some who fought in the Ethnic formations of the SS might be worthy of praise, but purely on a case-by-case basis. Don't see it as much different from the way I'd look at communist troops to be honest, it's not like the political areas of the USSR's military weren't perfectly aware of Stalin's own warcrimes afterall.

 

[Adler17]

First of all the Wehrmacht was the armed force of Germany. They had ever a distance to the party. Also the Wehrmacht didn´t trust Hitler completely. And vice versa...
First the Wehrmacht, I mean Reichswehr, did not fight Hitler when he came to power. They were lead conservative and until 1938 not able or willing to see the danger in him. The Reichswehr was loyal to the government. And Hitler was appointed within the German laws. If Hitler made a Coup d´état again, the Reichswehr would have shot.
The Reichswehr was suspicious because of Hitler´s private army, the SA. That he tranferred power after the so called Röhm Putsch to the Wehrmacht was only a small point since some generals were murdered within this action. Nevertheless the Reichswehr stayed loyal to the government.
It is not a coincidence that the first attempts to assassinate Hitler came from the Wehrmacht, when several generals recognized the danger in him. Throughout the war they tried to assassinate Hitler and most of these attempts.
Indeed the Wehrmacht is responsible for starting a war. But to that time it was not against any German law nor against the international law (this was wrong at Nuremberg: IMO the people there could not be punished because of that, since only perhaps the Anloamericans knew this, not so the Russians, French, Germans or Japanese laws.). But wait. Was the Wehrmacht responsible? No, the government. They followed the orders. The German soldiers was said Germany was attacked and the generals wanted revenge for Versailles. So in their eyes to that time the war was in a way justified. They were not eager like before ww1 but more afraid. Nevertheless in the first weeks and month until the BoB nothing happened which let them think this was not justified. Later it began and quickly spread after attacking the SU.
The Wehrmach commited war crimes indeed. But most crimes were made by the SS. Lidice for instance. There were execusions of civilians made by the Wehrmacht but mostly these were made by the SS. Other war crimes in the heat of the fighting like shooting captured MG gunner, well the Allies did the very same. Killing captured Partisans is also not a real war crime. The inhumane killing of civilians or PoW for partisan activity was, until a certain extent (10-1) within international law in these times and perhaps still is. Although we all agree that this is wrong and has to be changed it can´t be a crime when it was allowed! The allies, also the US, threatened to do so when they captured German towns. If they did so I don´t know.
All in all there are some crimes commited by the Wehrmacht.
Nevertheless the Wehrmacht was never considered as criminal orgaisation. They were the armed forces of Germany. They did not fight for Hitler (mostly) but for Germany. Indeed many soldiers said they would first have to win the war and then cleaning Berling from this brown scum.
The Wehrmacht was in no way part of the organized Holocaust. This was commited by the SS. The only crime, Case, you want to say is, that they fought for Germany, while the (Austrian) government was committing the crimes, which were not public. They were fighting because of patriotism and not of any other things. They did not stop Hitler. (Although some soldiers tried it). But THAT also the other nations did. That they supported Hitler by fighting, well then also the German people are guilty or some foreigners who had businesses here. But as this can´t be a crime, then all Russians were guilty for Stalin or all US citizens for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Adler

 

[nonconformist]

I have to say I agree 100% with Adler here. I think that, undere the same circumstances, the British, French, maybe even the Americans might have been in the same bboat.

 

[Reno]

They had their reasons, just as many other europeans had their reasons to side with Nazi Germany as allies or within her armies.

Yeah, i know they wanted to stop another world war from happening, but they still could have done something.

 

[Reno]

Yeah and nowadays SS and other pro-German troops in the Baltic states are praised as heros and the Red Army soldiers of 80 years old tried for crimes.

Maybe because the USSR annexed them first and they thought that they would gain atleast a partial independence after Germany would have won the war.

 

[privatehudson]

Yeah, i know they wanted to stop another world war from happening, but they still could have done something.

Such as? Hindsight is an outstanding thing but of little value.

Maybe because the USSR annexed them first and they thought that they would gain atleast a partial independence after Germany would have won the war.

Good reason for joining the Wermacht, not so good reason to join the Waffen SS.

 

[Reno]

Such as? Hindsight is an outstanding thing but of little value.



Good reason for joining the Wermacht, not so good reason to join the Waffen SS.

Well, they managed to bully the Weimar republic around they could have done the same to Germany in 1933 or a little later before Germany would have gotten stronger.

Just read half way a book about the Waffen SS there it says that many balts joined to the SS and wermacht not because of their political stance but just because they wanted to avoid forced laybor camps and such. Most of the volunteers to SS were just common thiefs and then there's the ones who wanted their country to have atleast a partial independence after the war if Germany won.

 

[privatehudson]

Well, they managed to bully the Weimar republic around they could have done the same to Germany in 1933 or a little later before Germany would have gotten stronger.

I really doubt this would have had the desired affect on Germany. One could make an argument for most european nations based on this though, any of them could have financially or militarily affected Germany during the period, but it probably wouldn't have worked very well. Throw in the thought that Germany was needed as part of an opposition to Communism and...

Just read half way a book about the Waffen SS there it says that many balts joined to the SS and wermacht not because of their political stance but just because they wanted to avoid forced laybor camps and such. Most of the volunteers to SS were just common thiefs and then there's the ones who wanted their country to have atleast a partial independence after the war if Germany won.

Interesting but hardly justifiable reasons for joining the very people who are terrorising you in the Waffen SS ranks.

 

[Adler17]

It was rare that non Germans became member of the Wehrmacht. Instead they were allowed to join the SS and not the Wehrmacht. The Wehrmacht had nearly only Germans in it because of common behaviour that only a German can be in the Wehrmacht. This is still made in the Bundeswehr. As conscripts only Germans are taken and no foreigners. So I don´t have a problem with that. However you have to remember that the SS was a criminal organisation. If the unit was involved in something then... Nevertheless there were also units in the SS which only fought like soldiers. To make them equal with the death head´s SS is also unfair.

Adler