Opinion on citadels

[nionios]

I think there's something strange with citadels claiming land.
Here's an example:
During war I've crushed the enemy civ, the warscore is much positive for me, we sign a humiliating (for the enemy) peace treaty and on the next turn the enemy AI claims my land after building a citadel.
It's very frustrating.
In my opinion, the territory claiming with citadels should be off during peace.

 

[Bryan317]

If it could be off with peace treaties that would be nice. Only because now you can't do anything.

 

[hokath]

It is a huge part of the game.
When an AI comes an puts a dent in your border with a Citadel it is a huge headache. If they can buy GGs with faith it can get quite crazy.
I don't know if anything should be changed, but one idea that comes to mind is to give the citadel-denying ability citadels themselves currently have to forts as well. This way if you really want to build the Maginot line to pre-empt this sort of thing, you have an option.

 

[Bryan317]

I generally like them. The bonus to add 2nd space for them is probably very annoying. But yes they are definitely a big part of the game. You also have the ability to lay down a citadel yourself and acquire some of the spaces back.

But just as it's commonly an automatic declaration of war from the AI, it should also be from you. And the AI shouldn't be using these against you unless you are enemies. So it generally fits the situation. I think it would be nice if they were blocked from doing it during peace treaties. But I don't know if that's possible.

 

[Tekamthi]

give the citadel-denying ability citadels themselves currently have to forts as well.

This sounds interesting to me -- kinda adds some subtle-but-important value to forts, which are slightly underwhelming as things stand. I wonder though if it would become too easy to counter citadels?

Alternatively maybe only a garrisoned fort blocks citadel ie fort with unit in it -- however AI is not so great at keeping units in important spots at all times, possible human advantage...

Blocking citadels in plot-claiming tiles during the post-war peace treaty also sounds good, less balance concerns with that one than the forts idea.

Most are probably aware already but the hex conquer mods take the edge of this effect to a great deal -- still happens but there are better choices available to respond to it afterwards, without conquering the nearby city itself. Perhaps VP should consider making citadels "conquerable" in this same way ie starting turn in enemy citadel flips it and adjacent tiles to your side

 

[Revolutionist_8]

Personally it is one of my favorite feature in VP. Yes, it can be absolutely obnoxious (especially because the AI uses them really well), but it also gives you opportunities. And just makes the game more dynamic and interesting in my opinion.

 

[youngsteve]

Never had any problems with them since installing mod 'Citadels don't steal land' years ago. Bliss.

 

[rusbeh]

Citadels make defending against the AI really easy.

 

[nionios]

Never had any problems with them since installing mod 'Citadels don't steal land' years ago. Bliss.

Is there such a mod ?
Are there any other mods relevant to territory claiming ?
The Influence Driven War (IDW) mod in Civ4 is a good one.
In any case, I believe that the gameplay shouldn't support land occupation during peace or without military force at least.

 

[azum4roll]

AI only builds citadels after accepting peace because they can't do it during war. Once that's fixed we'll be more incentivized to make peace with an AI without needing to beat them to submission.

 

[youngsteve]

Is there such a mod ?
Are there any other mods relevant to territory claiming ?
The Influence Driven War (IDW) mod in Civ4 is a good one.
In any case, I believe that the gameplay shouldn't support land occupation during peace or without military force at least.

The mod is exactly the same as normal citadels, including taking land around it, The only difference it doesn't steal land from other civs or you. It should be a defensive building, not one where you can advance on an enemy city, & ludicrously have even people defending a city receiving negative hits on their morale becasue a player has moved one next to it. People can play how they want, but this is far to gamey for me.

 

[harlonreinlu]

They are one of only a few ways to gain an advantage against a stronger army. The stolen land is absolutely necessary to give a defenders advantage due to quicker health regeneration in friendly land, even in peace time.

 

[nionios]

They are one of only a few ways to gain an advantage against a stronger army. The stolen land is absolutely necessary to give a defenders advantage due to quicker health regeneration in friendly land, even in peace time.

And why is it so necessary to recover unit health during peacetime?Not a strong argument IMO.

Anyway, IMO the biggest issue is the unbalance in land gaining: you gain no land after a successful war (positive warscore) unless you take a city(hence the land around it) but you can gain land after a humiliating defeat by building a citadel.
That's why I insist on the "spirit" of IDW mod: victorious battles count for land expansion.

 

[Bryan317]

This is one of those cases where you are not wrong... for your playthroughs. The Modmod for this issue sounds like it is exactly what you need.

I get it. There are a few cases where VP isn't exactly realistically or historically accurate. This is a good example of this. No... you wouldn't gain new territory after a peace treaty. Wasn't that the point of the peace treaty? But I digress for the sake of gameplay mechanics.

This is off subject but I make many of these mental sacrifices for the sake of mechanics over realism. Tercios are an example. Has anybody even heard of these before? Even the description for them explains how they were a rare and unique invention during their time lol. But they become a major bread and butter unit for every civ in this game. Historically it was really the Musketman. But there's some slight wonkiness how the crossbow man transitions to the musket man. I don't exactly like how the musket man is portrayed in vp.

 

[nionios]

This is one of those cases where you are not wrong... for your playthroughs. The Modmod for this issue sounds like it is exactly what you need.

I get it. There are a few cases where VP isn't exactly realistically or historically accurate. This is a good example of this. No... you wouldn't gain new territory after a peace treaty. Wasn't that the point of the peace treaty? But I digress for the sake of gameplay mechanics.

This is off subject but I make many of these mental sacrifices for the sake of mechanics over realism. Tercios are an example. Has anybody even heard of these before? Even the description for them explains how they were a rare and unique invention during their time lol. But they become a major bread and butter unit for every civ in this game. Historically it was really the Musketman. But there's some slight wonkiness how the crossbow man transitions to the musket man. I don't exactly like how the musket man is portrayed in vp.

Okay, I realize that games aren't "copy-paste" of reality. But the issue I refer to, it's not a matter of unit naming (we could call it "Tercio" or "Musketman" or"Arquebusier" or whatever else..). It's just a matter of gameplay and logic, I think.

 

[Bryan317]

Okay, I realize that games aren't "copy-paste" of reality. But the issue I refer to, it's not a matter of unit naming (we could call it "Tercio" or "Musketman" or"Arquebusier" or whatever else..). It's just a matter of gameplay and logic, I think.

Right. And I should have kept us on topic. My point is I don't mind the mechanic and accept it's necessity. Even if it defies logic. You do not, and that doesn't make you wrong.

But as mentioned, the AI is only building them because they didn't have a chance to do it during the war. Knowing this you would peace out to avoid them from doing it.

Now it depends on play style, but they should only be a nuisance until the peace treaty expires, in which time you should be declaring war again lol. They should only be a problem for one or two turns because with a Calvary unit you should rush in and pillage it.

And most likely the only reason you made peace is because your unhappiness was out of control, not because you're losing... I generally don't recommend long wars of attrition. You should be looking at the other players as someone your attempting to be allies with or someone that you're trying to exterminate or make a vassal. There is no in between.

 

[harlonreinlu]

And why is it so necessary to recover unit health during peacetime?Not a strong argument IMO.

Anyway, IMO the biggest issue is the unbalance in land gaining: you gain no land after a successful war (positive warscore) unless you take a city(hence the land around it) but you can gain land after a humiliating defeat by building a citadel.
That's why I insist on the "spirit" of IDW mod: victorious battles count for land expansion.

The AI still isn't capable of human level unit management, great generals specifically. I'm sure you've noticed in wars that they are easily killed before constructing a Citadel, hence the need for allowing the construction of citadels in peacetime.

 

[andersw]

This is very common, AIs hold a grudge and often try to claim land until you erase/puppet them.
I dont mind it unless we have close capitals then citadels feel too strong and prone to cheese.

 

[nionios]

The AI still isn't capable of human level unit management, great generals specifically. I'm sure you've noticed in wars that they are easily killed before constructing a Citadel, hence the need for allowing the construction of citadels in peacetime.

... so although the AI isn't still capable of proper unit management , it is still capable of stealing land during peacetime.

 

[Zanteogo]

I personally like it, but it can get crazy particularly if you have the double sized land policy unlocked. (I assume it's still in game, I am using an older version right now)

You can literally drill though an empire till your right next to the capital, all without declaring war.

Not sure what a solution to this would be. It's one of the things that if the AI could use them as effectively as a human can, they would have been nerfed by now.

Edit: Checking out the newer versions and I don't see the double land claim from GG anymore, unless I am just missing it.
Edit2: Never mind, it's still in the game. Meaning it's still possible to drill though an enemy empire.