yes, I think this is a good idea. You can only steal land if you are either at war or able to declare war. If war is blocked, stealing land is also blocked.
Opinion on citadels
- Thread starter nionios
- Start date
Bryan317
Prince
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- Feb 7, 2017
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Well idk I was kind of convinced the other way after a few comments here. You can exploit the AI to prevent him from building his Citadel. When you know he's going to do it you can make peace and he will no longer do it. Wait your required number of turns for a peace treaty. You probably need the break to get your unhappiness back in line anyways. Then declare war again with a mass Rush.
Bryan317
Prince
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Oh they can ONLY build them during peace time? I may have misunderstood this point. I see nothing wrong with them building during war.
But I know there were some issues where the AI would leave GG undefended. It seems much better now and maybe it shouldn't be messed with.
Citadel tile stealing during peace is very overpowered with Lebensraum and easy to exploit. Every warmongering game I do goes like this:
- Conquer all the weak civs until there is only me and an equal competitor
- Accumulate great generals
- Take Lebensraum
- Go to war with equal competitor. Draw and declare peace
- Use forced peace to bring in my army of great generals and steal the entirety of my competitor's territory until they control no tiles except the cities themselves
- Surround all of their cities with units
- Trivially take all of their cities in one turn once peace ends and win
Wouldn't mind this being patched because the peace treaty prevents the AI from defending against this in any way.
- Conquer all the weak civs until there is only me and an equal competitor
- Accumulate great generals
- Take Lebensraum
- Go to war with equal competitor. Draw and declare peace
- Use forced peace to bring in my army of great generals and steal the entirety of my competitor's territory until they control no tiles except the cities themselves
- Surround all of their cities with units
- Trivially take all of their cities in one turn once peace ends and win
Wouldn't mind this being patched because the peace treaty prevents the AI from defending against this in any way.
Bryan317
Prince
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Well now I'm being swayed the other way again. I guess my ignorance on their mechanics is because I rarely use them. During the early game on Diety I can usually find a better use for them. And I always find it wasteful as I'm glancing at them well within my territory hundreds of turns later.
But honestly by end game any chosen victory path can become OP. I used to make comments that certain civs/mechanics were overpowered. But then I realized it didn't matter what civilization I chose. I was going to win. Some of us have just gotten really good at this
But honestly by end game any chosen victory path can become OP. I used to make comments that certain civs/mechanics were overpowered. But then I realized it didn't matter what civilization I chose. I was going to win. Some of us have just gotten really good at this
Zanteogo
King
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- Nov 13, 2015
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Yup, the double steal ability of Lebensraum needs to be changed to something else.
Again, if the AI was smart enough to do it, it would have been patched out by now. Currently you can take 80% of an empire without the empire being able to do anything about it.
Edit: mind you, because only humans are smart enough to do it, we can also just not take advantage of it to the degree that we are exploiting it. Make a person rule where you can only use it once every 5 turns or something.
pineappledan
Deity
Lebensraum’s ability is fun. If you feel like it’s too strong then don’t pick it. The AI can’t use it like a human can.
I’m not interested in balance at the cost of fun.
If you want to remove citadels and tile stealing then do it on your local install and play however you want. Don’t force the rest of us to mod your joyless pablum back out, thank you.
I’m not interested in balance at the cost of fun.
If you want to remove citadels and tile stealing then do it on your local install and play however you want. Don’t force the rest of us to mod your joyless pablum back out, thank you.
I like Lebensraum's ability too but I feel like stealing territory shouldn't be possible during a peace treaty or should end the peace treaty/redeclare war. It doesn't make sense for two civs to agree to peace and then have one immediately steal the other civ's land while the other civ has to just sit back and take it.
Zanteogo
King
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I agree, but if the goal is to make the AI play as well as a human can.. what if the AI was made smart enough to do it?
I do agree though. If it's optional and a choice, it shouldn't be worried about too much.
Im not really sure what this would accomplish though. It just means we wait 10 turns until doing the land steal before declaring war again...I mean what does that solve?
It solves one civ being able to steal the other civ's territory while the other civ can't retaliate. The unfair thing is the "can't reliate" part. While the AI doesn't do the full on Lebensraum tunneling, it loves to pop its great generals and steal your territory as soon as you declare peace.
and I do the same thing to it. again though, with this change it would still do it just 10 turns later.
haha. with everyone being so aggravated by the AI behavior it seems to be a good play?
anyway if somebody wants to allow the AI to plant citadels during wartime they would need to come up with a new type of CvAIOperation to move the general and an escort to the target plot. i'm not going to do it ... ten turns earlier or later, what's the difference?
Zanteogo
King
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If you can get your war score above 80 that is.
Also, unless it was changed in the last few months, vassals will still steal your land.
That's fine though, because that 10 turns later you can declare war and bring your units in to fight for that stolen territory. The current situation is the civ that stole territory has 10 turns to bring their army into the stolen territory, and you can't even position units defensively around your city because you don't have open borders with that civ.
I don't think this is that big of a deal, but it's something that a human player can massively exploit and the AI can partially exploit. Blocking land stealing during a peace treaty seems like an easy fix that isn't fun killing and makes sense in terms of realism.
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