Other trait combos for civ leaders

[noto2]

I don't really think spi is as good as people claim it to be. All I really see it doing is allowing me to always have access to certain abilities - the whip, the draft, etc, and to quickly switch in and out of war mode - but then I can do that with a golden age as well. I guess it's still better than protective but most of Civ4's economy is so path dependent that I don't see it being that amazing. You have to choose a path - cottages/ workshops/ specialists/ etc... Spiritual should at least make more religious buildings cheaper and ESPECIALLY MISSIONARIES. Why aren't missionaries discounted for spi leaders???? That one change alone would make the trait much better imo

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Lol, I'll say this for you bro, your consistent. I really should invite Lemon and Unforced Error to this thread, it would get interesting really quick

Sorry, I'm busy making cookies and cleaning my house, and other insignificant "womanly" things. The misogynist gets no cookies, either.

And Elizabeth was anything but weak. It takes some intestinal fortitude to hold your own in an undoubtedly all male court.

 

[The Diocletian]

Pericles should be PHI/IND just for sts and .

And because he isn't good enough already.

 

[Drakarska]

Pericles should be PHI/IND just for sts and .

And because he isn't good enough already.

That would be awesome, can you imagine the absolute fun you could have with that?

 

[Drakarska]

Sorry, I'm busy making cookies and cleaning my house, and other insignificant "womanly" things. The misogynist gets no cookies, either.

And Elizabeth was anything but weak. It takes some intestinal fortitude to hold your own in an undoubtedly all male court.

May I have a cookie please? The significant other is on a baking hiatus and the four boys and I are having withdrawls. It just ain't the same playing civ without fresh baked cookies and an ice cold glass of moo juice.... I'll even clean out your rain gutters for you

Agree about Liz as well, and I just can't really see her as protective either.

 

[The Diocletian]

That would be awesome, can you imagine the absolute fun you could have with that?

Ultimate combo for Culture victory?

moo juice

Ugh, such a vile drink, I don't understand how anyone can like it.

I mean, who needs to be healthy? I have a good ol' can of Pepsi right here.

 

[Drakarska]

Ultimate combo for Culture victory?



Ugh, such a vile drink, I don't understand how anyone can like it.

I mean, who needs to be healthy? I have a good ol' can of Pepsi right here.

Yup, you go ahead and enjoy that.... And the kidney stones that follow. Trust me, I have a whole new appreciation for woman giving birth. An experience I for one would never care to repeat... EVER!

 

[The Diocletian]

Yup, you go ahead and enjoy that.... And the kidney stones that follow. Trust me, I have a whole new appreciation for woman giving birth. An experience I for one would never care to repeat... EVER!

It's soooo worth it though!

except not really

 

[Midnight-Blue766]

Frederick would be Agg/Phi or Agg/Cre, since Fritz was one of the greatest military commanders in European history.

 

[Gregonar]

I agree on the fun factor in playing as toku, but having no economic boosts whatsoever makes him the worst, given identical starting positions. Saladin and SB are both tough to play as well. SPI is pretty useless until you have more civic options later. Saving a turn here and there in the early BCs do absolutely nothing. PHI doesn't kick in until you can build a library.

I think that PRO is so difficult because it's a war trait that only becomes powerful later in the game, after you get either machinery or feudalism, by which time much of the game is decided. It's a bit counter-intuitive. Also archers are just so weak in their era. However, if you play as protective Mali (with eg gilgamesh or mao), whose UU is roughly the relative strength of LB/crossbows in the medieval era, PRO is a lot of fun. Playing Charlemagne/Mali is ridiculous for all the GG you'd get with your drill IV skirmishers.

 

[Jastrow]

@Gregonar

How often have you been beaten to the Oracle or the Mids by one turn? Had an AI settler beat you to a really nice spot by 1 turn?

Saving a turn in the BC's can sometimes be a massive difference!

 

[Gregonar]

SPI saves 1 turn for slavery and 1 turn for HR in the early game. Okay.

How many turns do EXP/CRE/IMP save you in the early game? FIN or CHA boosts your early game in other ways. Be IND if you're building wonders... Relatively, SPI kinda doesn't measure up.

You can even measure this if you look at the lost commerce/hammers from those two turns. It might be something 20 hammers and 30 research altogether, tops. Wow. Even AGG gets you more hammers with cheap racks.

 

[VSarius]

SPIs strength is in manipulating the most broken aspect of Civ4, diplomacy. Being able to play the AIs is marvelous, it's just a trait that requires more knowledge and experience with the game to truly exploit. EXP is a top-tier trait, partially because of the 2-ish faster t worker but moreso because of the 30h Granaries, IMP is bad most of the time, CRE is very meh. It saves you a forest chop or whip on a monument, the faster libraries are very nice, but still not that critical, PHI accomplishes what fast Libs do better, of course, in combination CRE/PHI work very well.

SPI is certainly a stronger trait than IMP or CRE, about on par with PHI/EXP, and FIN being better than them.

 

[noto2]

wow you think CRE is meh??? CRE is ridiculously powerful if you share borders with a few civs. I admit it's a lot less useful if you find yourself isolated or squeezed into a peninsula or something, otherwise it's amazing. I think SPI and PRO are tied for the worst trait, and NO WHERE near PHI/EXP. Then again, I don't play Civ spreadsheet style. I guess if you're still playing the retail version of BTS on deity, SPI might be useful, as you said, for diplomacy. I play Kmod, random personalities, so I don't know what any AI is going to do.

 

[Fippy]

It's simple, many of you forget imo or "in my opinion" in your posts :b
How can you rank traits, and present that as if it's final facts?

If Spi or Cre i.e. would be weak, you would have noticed that more by now on these forums..
but hardly anyone complains about these.

 

[Xunin]

Apparently even strong players rank traits differently (aside from the obvious pro/agg=bottom), which if anything is a testament to the fact that, as far as traits go, this game is pretty "balanced"(in lack of a better word).

 

[noto2]

well to be honest I think it's not very useful to rate traits in a vacuum. One has to look at the whole picture. Take the protective trait, for example. Look at Churchill. Imagine you could swap PRO for something else on him, would you? You probably would, I would. But then look at Mao, on him PRO makes sense, due to the Chinese UU. I would take PRO on Mao over IMP or AGG and I would consider taking it instead of CHA. Another example - Wang. PRO works very well when you have a tech lead, and Wang is a leader that makes a good turtle anyway, so I think PRO is fine on him, just as good as AGG would be.

Other examples - Elizabeth is PHI/FIN, those are two powerful traits but you can't exploit both of them to their full potential at the same time. In a vacuum, I'd say PHI beats IMP, but then I'd say that Victoria is just as good as Elizabeth, because there is at least some synergy with IMP/FIN whereas there isn't really any synergy with FIN/PHI. Or look at Pacal, his traits are amazing when you combine them with his UB and I'd say he's just as strong as Elizabeth, even though, again in a vacuum, PHI should beat EXP. Again, it's because Pacal's attributes have synergy with each other.

Another example - Ghengis vs Kublai. If I had a leader with no UU or UB and could only have one trait, I'd say CRE is just as good if not better than IMP, but again we have to look at the whole picture. I'd much rather play Ghengis than Kublai, because the Mongols are geared for war, with an early UU and a military UB. Ghengis' traits have good synergy - you have strong infantry and cavalry, giving you a strong military overall and making you less dependent on a particular strategic resource. The creative trait just doesn't make much sense with an early warfare strategy.

So, as I said, the traits are only part of the picture, you have to consider how they interact with each other and the UU/UB and starting techs to really evaluate them properly.

 

[Drakarska]

Interesting N2. I'm a little curious as to how you don't consider being able to use Liz's traits at the same time. Granted, I'm only a MON lvl player, but other than a few crappy starts, I've never really had any issues about synergizing her traits together early. Would you mind explain in a bit more detail your reasoning's please?

 

[noto2]

I view industrious, financial, and philosophical as the three active economic traits. Expansive and Organized could be considered economic, but they are fairly passive in nature. Exploiting IND is fairly obvious. Exploiting FIN is somewhat obvious as well - you want to work a lot of cottages early or perhaps coastal cities. Exploiting PHI often involves getting more than one GP farm up and running ASAP but the trait is fairly flexible. You might run a lot of cottages and do a lot of bulbing and/or golden ages, or you might be building a lot of academies, or you might even be mass settling in a super science city.

I just don't see exploiting FIN and PHI to 100% potential at the same time. You really need more than one GP farm to make use of PHI and how can you be doing that AND working cottages early in the game? Don't get me wrong, Elizabeth is a total powerhouse leader... I'm just saying that Pacal can rival her even though, on its own, PHI is probably a stronger trait than EXP. It's that Pacal's UB has synergy with his traits. EXP supports FIN very well. Or Victoria is another example I gave - she can REX hard and work tons of cottages early. Thus, Victoria is just as strong a leader as Elizabeth even though, on its own, IMP probably isn't as strong of a trait as PHI.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not picking on the PHI trait, nor am I saying Elizabeth is weak, she's not at all.

 

[Drakarska]

Fair enough, appreciate you explaining your reasoning.