Overall Civ Elimination Thread

[Maucat]

I don't vote in this stupid game...
Seeing as finalist Inca, Korea and Poland is an insult to human intelligence...

 

[arand86]

I don't vote in this stupid game...
Seeing as finalist Inca, Korea and Poland is an insult to human intelligence...

Poland should be in the top 3.

Inca and Korea imo don't match up to babylon, but I think having Korea in the mix isn't a bad thing.


Maybe you should stop reading and trashing threads that you don't like.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I don't vote in this stupid game...
Seeing as finalist Inca, Korea and Poland is an insult to human intelligence...

Korea and Poland are fine here, as Korea has the best Science-giving UA's coupled with two meh UU's, while Poland has a good UU, one of the best UAs and a UB that is either useless, so-so or beyond godlike.

I agree on the Inca though. I completely don't see why people like them so much. Bad UU, food from the TF is cool but not as cool as some claim it is, UA is great but overrated (nowhere close to Babylon and Korea).

I think Aztecs are superior to the Inca, as the Floating Gardens are easily going to give you much more Food than Terrace Farm, they have one of the best (and unfortunately most underrated) UU's ever, and a UA that ensures you have a better early/mid cultural game, but - yeah - is worse. The FG and Jags should win it over, though.

But the list being weird is all fault of them Babylon haters, I tell you. Babylon easily deserved a place in first 3 or 5, especially since it's UB is heavily underrated. My early conquest of Babylon was stopped because of this blue annoyance once, and I repelled many attackers with them.

The UU is the most useless thing ever though. I'd expect at least one decent promotion if it's on an ancient era unit that is upgraded to composite in several turns, but nope. Nothing.

 

[whyidie]

Inca - 5
Korea - 6
Poland - 14

Up for Korea and down for Poland. Koreas UA gets the proper respect so I'll focus on the UU's. They go well with what you want to do with the Civ.

Turtle ship ? The only unit that gives it trouble in its era is the vaunted Ship of the Line. The Turtle Ship is the only unit that gives you a fighting chance in a defensive war against the Ship of the Line. Its an incredibly strong unit which guarantees defense of the capitol from naval attacks and can be used offensively against anyone except England. So its the 2nd strongest naval unit in the game until the Industrial era. And who will get to the industrial era first ? Yep, Korea.

How about the equally maligned Hwach'a ? Can't take cities! We all know siege units are weak on city attack because they won't last long enough to do damage. So you won't build siege units. You'll take cities with archer lines. So no real disadvantage. The advantage comes against units. Hwach'a your siege engines be useful and destroy enemy units. Destroy is too strong a word ? No, its not. Ranged combat strength is 26. That means it deals the most damage of ANY unit in the Medieval era. The unit it upgrades to (Cannon) has a combat strength of 20! The much loved Frigates come in an era later at at 28!!! Folks, the Hwacha'a is like having a damn Frigate in the Medieval era. Its crazy powerful and I suspect doesn't get the love it deserves because no one actually uses siege engines.

So make it to the Medival era with Korea and its pretty much game over. And because science is King, you can use the advantage to win any way you want. Use the tech advantage to build the key culture wonders. Populate your specialist slots with artists, musicians, and writers while not hampering your science lead. Use it to go on a military roll using units a full era more advanced than anyone else. Koreas units guarantee you'll get through to industrial. After that the UA is in full force and will ensure a victory of your choosing.

Knocking Poland because Social Policies have diminishing returns as the game goes on and to equalize a bit.

 

[Soffacet]

I don't vote in this stupid game...
Seeing as finalist Inca, Korea and Poland is an insult to human intelligence...

The elimination order has been questionable at times (Egypt, Babylon, Ethiopia), but there’s nothing insulting about these finalists. A fair argument for top-3 could be made for just about any civ in the top-10.

I agree on the Inca though. I completely don't see why people like them so much. Bad UU, food from the TF is cool but not as cool as some claim it is, UA is great but overrated (nowhere close to Babylon and Korea).

I think Aztecs are superior to the Inca, as the Floating Gardens are easily going to give you much more Food than Terrace Farm.

That’s not true at all. All you need is a few +4/5 apple TFs, and FGs would need well over 100 base food to break even. And that doesn't take into account the fact that the TF food is base food, meaning that it is multiplied by the benefits from Tradition, ToA, WLTKD, etc, whereas the 15% FG food is not.

Certainly there are some cases in which the %-boost of the FGs can overtake the flat rate from the TFs late in the game, but by then the accumulated advantage from the TFs churning out citizens since the early game will have snowballed into a different advantage.

 

[bbbt]

Inca - 6
Korea - 2
Poland - 18

The Inca are more flexible - they can be played wide or tall, warlike or peaceful. And their UI (and UA) allows them to grow giant cities AND have massive production.

Korea is really optimized to play for a tall, turtling peaceful victory. If you want to charge to a science victory, or bang out GWAM while keeping up in science, it's absolutely the best at doing that. However, they're difficult to play wide (as you need the population to support your specialists), or really any domination until the second half of the game. I know that's what BNW skews to anyways, but it makes them a little less flexible than the Inca or Poland.


Oh, and do we really need people to keep whining every page about how their favorite civ didn't make it? Give it a rest.

 

[redwings1340]

Inca - 3
Korea - 3
Poland - 18

Incans are good, but super science Korea is better.

Poland is still the best though.

 

[redwings1340]

I don't vote in this stupid game...
Seeing as finalist Inca, Korea and Poland is an insult to human intelligence...

Maybe if you had voted and given good reasons the final 3 wouldn't have been these civs. Votes in this thread are definitely influenced by opinions of the more vocal members who give good arguments to justify their votes.

 

[jlim201]

Inca - 4- Terrace Farms are amazing, especially with a hill start and Andean Road is great for exploring.
Korea - 0- Korea is too reliant on their UA.
Poland - 18

 

[ixias]

Poor Korea. Voted out as I was up-voting them... darn my timing.

Inca - 4-3=1
Poland - 18+1=19

Inca is great - definitely top 5 - but Poland gets a free Social Policy tree. Surprised they made it further than Korea, but hey, that's how the cooki crumbles!

 

[VicRatlhead5199]

The elimination order has been questionable at times (Egypt, Babylon, Ethiopia), but there’s nothing insulting about these finalists. A fair argument for top-3 could be made for just about any civ in the top-10.



That’s not true at all. All you need is a few +4/5 apple TFs, and FGs would need well over 100 base food to break even. And that doesn't take into account the fact that the TF food is base food, meaning that it is multiplied by the benefits from Tradition, ToA, WLTKD, etc, whereas the 15% FG food is not.

Certainly there are some cases in which the %-boost of the FGs can overtake the flat rate from the TFs late in the game, but by then the accumulated advantage from the TFs churning out citizens since the early game will have snowballed into a different advantage.

FG is base food. That's why it's so good. It's one of the few food modifiers that affects base food rather than excess food. 4/5 apple terrace farms really aren't all that common whereas FGs can be built anywhere there's fresh water.

I don't vote in this stupid game...
Seeing as finalist Inca, Korea and Poland is an insult to human intelligence...

Just out of curiosity what are your final 3? Some might agree with you...

 

[Sagax]

Inca
Poland - 20

Slingshots are too much of a downside for me....
Well, let me perform Coup de Grace and make Poland the best overall civilization according to this thread.

 

[bbbt]

So interestingly, 2 of the top 5 are stand-alone DLC.

And the very worst civ is stand-alone DLC.

 

[GoStu]

The UU is the most useless thing ever though. I'd expect at least one decent promotion if it's on an ancient era unit that is upgraded to composite in several turns, but nope. Nothing.

The UU predates composite bows, actually. This made them very good at that time because the unit lasted all the way from Archery to Machinery and was stronger than the Archer the whole time.

It could really use a second look now that getting Construction obsoletes it.

 

[Soffacet]

FG is base food. That's why it's so good. It's one of the few food modifiers that affects base food rather than excess food. 4/5 apple terrace farms really aren't all that common whereas FGs can be built anywhere there's fresh water.

You didn't understand my post. I know that FG multiplies base food. But as you say yourself, the +15% is a modifier that isn't part of the base food that gets multiplied by other factors. TF food is.

4 food TFs are plenty common, but lets just look at 3FTFs for the sake of argument. You would need 20 base food for every one 3FTF for FG to break even. But as I mentioned in my previous post, that doesn't include the effects of other food multipliers. Lets say you finish Tradition and keep WLTKD in your capitol. Then each 3FTF provides 3*(1.0+0.1+0.15+0.25) = 4.5F. So FG would need 30 base food for every one 3FTF to break even.

 

[Kraydak]

You didn't understand my post. I know that FG multiplies base food. But as you say yourself, the +15% is a modifier that isn't part of the base food that gets multiplied by other factors. TF food is.

4 food TFs are plenty common, but lets just look at 3FTFs for the sake of argument. You would need 20 base food for every one 3FTF for FG to break even. But as I mentioned in my previous post, that doesn't include the effects of other food multipliers. Lets say you finish Tradition and keep WLTKD in your capitol. Then each 3FTF provides 3*(1.0+0.1+0.15+0.25) = 4.5F. So FG would need 30 base food for every one 3FTF to break even.

I could have sworn the order of operations was:
a) total food on tiles
b) modify for FG/ToA
c) subtract food eaten, note surplus
d) modify surplus by growth modifiers such as WLTKD
which means that the FG food does get growth modifiers, but not ToA.

Also, always remember that terraces replace other improvements. A 4FTF is only 2 food above a Civil Service farm (but many hills can't be farmed), and 4F but -2 production over a Chemistry mine.

 

[VicRatlhead5199]

I could have sworn the order of operations was:
a) total food on tiles
b) modify for FG/ToA
c) subtract food eaten, note surplus
d) modify surplus by growth modifiers such as WLTKD
which means that the FG food does get growth modifiers, but not ToA.

Also, always remember that terraces replace other improvements. A 4FTF is only 2 food above a Civil Service farm (but many hills can't be farmed), and 4F but -2 production over a Chemistry mine.

Shoot Kraydak you beat me to it. I hit next page and saw you said everything I was going to say.

 

[jlim201]

FINAL RANKINGS

1. Poland
2. Inca
3. Korea
4. Maya
5. Aztec
6. Arabia
7. England
8. China
9. Germany
10. Zulu
11. Ethiopia
12. Portugal
13. Siam
14. Babylon
15. Sweden
16. Shoshone
17. Persia
18. Austria
19. Mongols
20. Spain
21. Rome
22. Songhai
23. Greece
24. Netherlands
25. Indonesia
26. Carthage
27. Huns
28. Assyria
29. Celts
30 The Ottomans
31 ~ Japan
32 ~ Egypt
33 ~ Polynesia
34 ~ Morocco
35 ~ The Iroquois
36 ~ Byzantium
37 ~ Brazil
38 ~ America
39 ~ Russia
40 ~ Venice
41 ~ India
42 ~ France
43 ~ Denmark

 

[jlim201]

When the elimination threads were going on, I averaged all the results, (multiplying buildings (X3) , improvements (X8) and abilities (x1.3) so they all match up with units). So basically according to all the other elimination threads this is the overall civ ranking. Civs with unique Great People were given the average of all the units.

Some civs, like Babylon were pulled down because of their UB and UU, which finished poorly. Others, like Zulu, China and England did well overall. Japan, Indonesia and India did badly in all categories and they ended up on the bottom.

Largest Drops and Falls from the other rankings

Japan- -12
Indonesia- -17
Zulu- +10

Zulu 11
China 12
England 12
Arabia 13
Siam 14
Poland 15
Aztec 19
Portugal 19
Inca 19
Korea 20
Maya 21
Persia 21
Shoshone 22
Assyria 23
Sweden 23
Dutch 24
Spain 25
Greece 27
Ottoman 27
Huns 28
Mongolia 28
America 29
Russia 29
Austria 30
Germany 32
Carthage 34
Ethiopia 34
Songhai 34
Venice 35
Danes 36
Morocco 36
Rome 36
Babylon 36
Byzantium 37
France 37
Brazil 38
Iroquois 39
Celts 40
Polynesia 40
Egypt 42
India 43
Indonesia 44
Japan 49

Note: These results are assuming that Korea wins the UA Elimination Thread which they have a significant lead over Babylon in.

 

[greygamer]

You could have probably have called the winner very early on, most up votes for Poland were about the UA. To me they are still very boring but to each their own.

So NERF POLAND!!! thread anyone?