Paris burns again.

[Little Raven]

Well, a tiny part of it, anyway.

Police detained some 300 people around France after nationwide student marches against a new labor law turned violent, as street cleaners cleared away torched cars Friday and the government braced for more protests.

A quarter of a million people took to the streets in some 200 demonstrations around the country Thursday, in a test of strength between youth and the conservative government of 73-year-old President Jacques Chirac.

...

The students' anger focuses on a new form of job contract championed by Villepin that will allow employers to fire young workers within their first two years in a job without giving a reason.

The government says the flexibility will encourage companies to hire thousands of young people, bringing down unemployment rates that run at 23 percent among young adults and around double that in some of the depressed suburbs that were shaken by weeks of riots last year.

The job contract was one of the government's responses to that violence. But students fear it will erode France's coveted labor protections and leave the young by the wayside.

This is a tough one for me. I understand why the students are upset...this system practically begs for abuse. But at the same time, the French economy is desperately in need of greater flexibility.

Honestly, I suspect a complete overhaul of French labor laws is going to be required in order to solve this. Americans may complain about our sue-happy culture, but at least we avoid this particular mess. It may be that France can learn a thing or two from our example in this particular case.

 

[joycem10]

Car insurance in France for riot related damage must be insanely pricey.

 

[luiz]

So you start a business with your money, hire some people using your money, and yet you're not allowed to fire them for your reasons?

Of course, the same is true in Brazil. Only things are much worse here. In addition to the stagnation we see in France, we're also poor. The worst of all worlds.

 

[anarres]

...Americans may complain about our sue-happy culture, but at least we avoid this particular mess. It may be that France can learn a thing or two from our example in this particular case.

The point in labour laws is to avoid the system you have in the US, whereby no-one has job security and everyone can be destitute and homeless tomorrow.

Honestly, I don't know if I could have ever got a morgage with the uncertainty of a US-style system.

 

[Kayak]

The point in labour laws is to avoid the system you have in the US, whereby no-one has job security and everyone can be destitute and homeless tomorrow.

Honestly, I don't know if I could have ever got a morgage with the uncertainty of a US-style system.

The point is, you might sudenly lose you job, but you are much more likely to find one in the first place (and again after being let go). We do have unemployment too you know.

 

[Little Raven]

The point in labour laws is to avoid the system you have in the US, whereby no-one has job security and everyone can be destitute and homeless tomorrow.

No, I don't think so.

There has to be a balance between the rights of the worker and the needs of the employer. Give employers too much power, and bad things happen. Strangle employers too much, and the economy suffers.

The difference is in how the US and France have approached this problem. The US lacks the harsh labor laws of Europe, but on the flip-side, our legal system makes it extremely easy for little guys to sue big guys. So if your employer really screws you over, you can take him to court.

In France, it's almost impossible for a little guy to sue a big guy, so you guys write these labor laws instead. But that's not working out very well, because it doesn't give the workforce (and by that, I mean both employers and employees) the flexibility that they need. Now the government is trying to counter that via 'probationary periods,' but that's likely to do more harm than good, because that actually encourages employers to screw over employees.

France is attempting to chop down a tree with a sledgehammer. The tree has to come down, but that method isn't going to work well.

 

[anarres]

I would contend that the US system of sueing everyone for anything is (1) costing the US economy a hell of a lot, and (2) not protecting those most at risk.

Besides my opinion (admittedly, I have no facts!), am I right in saying that in the US anyone can be fired for almost any reason (barring race and sex possibly?)

If so, then how would the ability to sue help? What are you sueing for? "Rightful dismissal"?

 

[EolTheDarkElf]

I live in a country that theoretically has high hiring costs and strict labour law...

Do I feel secure? Not a chance in hell....

I know that if I loose my job that pays my puny mortgage that the bank reluctantly agreed to grant me, I will have a hard time finding a new job. Any job, even a menial job that would as such be sufficient to pay my loan and get me by. But it would be hard for me to get that job because of high unemployment.

And BTW, the big buisnesses find it really easy to abuse the system and treat people like **** either way because the law is not perfect. The only difference from the US is that those people don't have anywhere else to go.

Guess what, I'm not a big fan of labor laws....

 

[Winner]

Well, I think that the biggest problem with this law is, that it is inherently discriminatory. Why it is aimed just at young people? Why not at all working people? I can understand why are they pissed off.

On the other hand, so high unemployment among the young people is very dangerous, because it means an immense waste of their potential.

Concerning the violence - I guess the radical lefties and anarchists hijacked a peaceful protests once again. Police should deal with them accordingly.

 

[Elrohir]

Like Winner, (Man that sounds scary) I can see why these students are mad. Tihey are being unfairly discriminated against compared to the rest of the population, and I would be angry too. But that doesn't give them the right to riot and throw rocks at the police and whatnot. But, I can see Villepin's point in trying to reform France's labor and economic laws, because France's economy really is a mess.

Honestly, I don't think this will work, in any case. Far reaching reforms are necessary in order to give France's economy a jump start, and I don't think the people are willing to give up their welfare state for that. Too bad, but until they see that their country is screwed until it reforms, nothing will change.

 

[SeleucusNicator]

Europe's bloated welfare states and highly restraining labor laws are a blessing for the United States -- as of right now, they ensure that Europe will not reach its full economic potential and will be less of a credible peer competitor to the United States.

I hope these students are able to stop the government from enacting this law. Look at Europe; it has a larger population than the United States and is at roughly the same technological level. If it liberalizes its economic policies, look out.

 

[joycem10]

Besides my opinion (admittedly, I have no facts!), am I right in saying that in the US anyone can be fired for almost any reason (barring race and sex possibly?)

Protected classes of individual employees are defined by race, gender, religion, age (older workers, not younger workers are protected), and disability.

In addition there is a "public policy" exception to the employment at will doctrine which holds that a termination which violates public policy as defined in statutory law can be challenged in the courts.

In addition, whistleblowers and those who exercise their rights to benefits or family leave are protected from retaliatory terminations.

 

[Steph]

Well, I think that the biggest problem with this law is, that it is inherently discriminatory. Why it is aimed just at young people? Why not at all working people? I can understand why are they pissed off.

1) Because it's done to help young people find a job. The young say "we have a higher rate of unemployement, we want to get a specific law to help use!". So we give them a law... And suddenly they say "Finally, we don't want a specific law!"
2) Because they have little experience, so it's done to help the employers employ. It limits the risk he takes to hire a young who may not fit at all.

 

[Steph]

Concerning the violence - I guess the radical lefties and anarchists hijacked a peaceful protests once again. Police should deal with them accordingly.

The police has been ordered to remain laxist... So students break things, and the people are angry with them, and do not support their cause.
Aren't you studying politics? You still have much to learn.

 

[Winner]

Europe's bloated welfare states and highly restraining labor laws are a blessing for the United States -- as of right now, they ensure that Europe will not reach its full economic potential and will be less of a credible peer competitor to the United States.

I hope these students are able to stop the government from enacting this law. Look at Europe; it has a larger population than the United States and is at roughly the same technological level. If it liberalizes its economic policies, look out.

How is that a bad thing? You should seriously reconsider your views, because it is increasingly clear that any deeper divisions in the West would be a real blessing for everybody else on this planet.

You're worried about the Europe's potentional power, but I don't see why. Europeans don't have either the will or the means or the reason to challenge the US. In other words, Europe's interests aren't contradictory to the US interests.

Sadly, Western Europeans are unwilling to reform. They're unwilling to reverse trends they started decades ago. Too much power for the unions, too rigid labour markets, too large governments. I guess they need to go through some really serious crisis to finally realize, that the current way of stagnation isn't the right way to go. In my opinion, Germany still has a hope, as well as the Netherlands. France, Belgium and Italy, on the other hand, will have a really problematic future. Sadly, it is almost certain that France will once again abuse her strenght in the EU decision making process to block any liberalization the EC may propose.

 

[Steph]

Sadly, Western Europeans are unwilling to reform.

That's untrue, at least for France.
French people are ready to accept reform, if the reform gives them more benefits (more help from the government, more vacation, more income, earlier retirement). They are also ready to accept hughe sacrifice... if they are made by the other guy, there.

 

[Winner]

1) Because it's done to help young people find a job. The young say "we have a higher rate of unemployement, we want to get a specific law to help use!". So we give them a law... And suddenly they say "Finally, we don't want a specific law!"
2) Because they have little experience, so it's done to help the employers employ. It limits the risk he takes to hire a young who may not fit at all.

And I think that making special laws for different groups of people is bad. France needs profound reforms of whole labour market.

The police has been ordered to remain laxist... So students break things, and the people are angry with them, and do not support their cause.
Aren't you studying politics? You still have much to learn.

Well, I study the political science, to be accurate. And despite of what I have learned, police is there to prevent any violent attacks on people's property, health, lives etc.

As far as I know, those causing real trouble aren't "true" students, but some pseudo-anarchist punks. I am not a French, but when I look at France from the outside, I am getting an impression, that the police there essentially let the violent actions committed by larger groups of people slide.
If the aim is, as you suggest, to turn the public against the students, it doesn't work very good, because 2/3 of the French public allegedly support their protests.

 

[Steph]

I agree that our labour laws are not flexible, and to complicated. We need to simplify it, and to allow employers to hire more easily, and to fire more easily.
Forcing a company to keep people when it can't afford it is very dangerous.

 

[Winner]

I agree that our labour laws are not flexible, and to complicated. We need to simplify it, and to allow employers to hire more easily, and to fire more easily.
Forcing a company to keep people when it can't afford it is very dangerous.

That is exactly what I think. Reform there is desperately needed, the sooner the better.

 

[E-Raser]

The sad truth is that thanks to neo-lib crappy ideas the working class get's more and more exploited. The proletarians must make clear that they will not agree to this procedure any more. Paris is a very good start for this. To protest against the ideas of hire and fire is much more than just justyfied.
In Germany it is similar. That's why huge parts of people are on strike.
Fight neo-lib BS!
The world isd RICH! Devide fairly. If 90% of wealth is kept by less than 20% of the people it is more than one reason to revolt. it is in fact 90 Reasons to revolt.
Fight for the victory of real Socialsm. Forget neo-lib propaganda and strange comparisons with Stalinsm. Go and fight for a better life for the working class.
Since French revolution we changes only Absolutism against the Rule of the Capital. Now it is time to eastablish the rule of the people.
Rise the red flags and march! Upright bith braveness in our hearts we might fight against the unhuman neolib betrayors!

Long live Socialsm!