Paris burns again.

[Steph]

The sad truth is that thanks to neo-lib crappy ideas the working class get's more and more exploited. The proletarians must make clear that they will not agree to this procedure any more. Paris is a very good start for this. To protest against the ideas of hire and fire is much more than just justyfied.

You missed a little point. In France currently it's not 'hire and fire", it's "won't hire, can't fire"

 

[Winner]

The sad truth is that thanks to neo-lib crappy ideas the working class get's more and more exploited. The proletarians must make clear that they will not agree to this procedure any more. Paris is a very good start for this. To protest against the ideas of hire and fire is much more than just justyfied.
In Germany it is similar. That's why huge parts of people are on strike.
Fight neo-lib BS!
The world isd RICH! Devide fairly. If 90% of wealth is kept by less than 20% of the people it is more than one reason to revolt. it is in fact 90 Reasons to revolt.
Fight for the victory of real Socialsm. Forget neo-lib propaganda and strange comparisons with Stalinsm. Go and fight for a better life for the working class.
Since French revolution we changes only Absolutism against the Rule of the Capital. Now it is time to eastablish the rule of the people.
Rise the red flags and march! Upright bith braveness in our hearts we might fight against the unhuman neolib betrayors!

Long live Socialsm!

Socialism has failed. So the socialists wanted even more socialism. And it has failed again. So what they want now? More socialism! They even managed to convince themselves, that it was in fact the liberalism, what failed

Well, some people are simply inherently... slower

 

[E-Raser]

You missed a little point. In France currently it's not 'hire and fire", it's "won't hire, can't fire"

Oh, you're already an vicitim of the neolib conspiracy. Sorry to see that, but there's still a way out!
Join proletarian forces!
No, serious.
Whom the market shall serve? The people! or vice versa?
Fact is that companies rule already the politics. And it shoulb be vice versa. But due to our politicians - trapped in corrution and incompetance - they have fair game.
Who to raise kids in a world without a humble security for a job, supply and support? Germans already do not!
Fight this attempt to lower your right at any means.
Won't hire, can't fire!
LOL
They anyway would't if you get Ukranians for half price.
Man, open your eyes and stop swallowing down all this neo-lib crap they serve you.
Make the market serve the people and not vece versa. Give working people the perspective and opportunity to raise kids and life a stable live.
Shall we return to the middle ages there people were travelling aroungd the cities searching for a one-das-job after another.
Yeah, I know there are plenty of dudes who would like that.
FIGHT THEM!

Völker hört die Signale,
auf zum letzten Gefecht.
Die Internationale
erkämpft das Menschenrecht!

 

[ainwood]

You missed a little point. In France currently it's not 'hire and fire", it's "won't hire, can't fire"

Yep. We're seeing a watered-down version of that here. Our union-backed ruling party has been strengthening the rights of workers to the point where it becomes very, very difficult to get rid of non-performing (or even dishonest) staff. And if you don't follow the procedures to the letter-of-the-law in disciplining staff, you can find yourself up in the employment court paying out compensation for wrongful dismissal to (ex-)staff - we've even had that in cases where staff have been found to have stolen from the employers!

We now have a new bill that proposes a 6-month probation period for new staff, where employers can terminate the relationship without a long protracted process. Interestingly, it passed teh first reading, despite the government being opposed to it.

 

[Steph]

Oh, you're already an vicitim of the neolib conspiracy. Sorry to see that, but there's still a way out!
Join proletarian forces!
No, serious.
Won't hire, can't fire!
LOL

I work for a small company, that at a time had not enough work to do, and we had to many people to pay. So what happened? The boss stopped to payed us, because there was no money in the bank account. He tried to fire some employees, but he was denied it. So instead of allowing to terminate a few jobs to save the others, the company was almost entirely terminated because the labour laws where to rigid and protective.
That's your perfect system?

 

[E-Raser]

Socialism has failed. So the socialists wanted even more socialism. And it has failed again. So what they want now? More socialism! They even managed to convince themselves, that it was in fact the liberalism, what failed

Well, some people are simply inherently... slower

Oh Winner, even your Nick implies- you are so incredibly fast- I even do not WANT to catch up.
Besides? What does your neo-lib crap offer?
For the ordinary people I mean? More jobs in one year. How cool!
I can't wait for this.
I mean what and who are you that you think you must even blow wind yourself in the sails of the companies?
Since DECADES Germany does nothing BUT follow neo-lib ideas! Lowering taxes for companies.
Making it already easier to set people free. And much more.
Did it bring a single working place in addtition. Vice versa. If it helpes the shareholder value 20.000 [<- TWENTYTHOUSAND!!!] workers [including their families] MEAN NOTHING!
I tell you somthing chap. If it goes on like this I wouldn't mind anylonger to fight for my rights even armed.
This total exploiting of workers must stop - worl wide.
And please stop this repeating of crude ideas like "if the comany is well you're also well"
This is definately proven wrong.

 

[Winner]

Oh Winner, even your Nick implies- you are so incredibly fast- I even do not WANT to catch up.
Besides? What does your neo-lib crap offer?
For the ordinary people I mean? More jobs in one year. How cool!
I can't wait for this.
I mean what and who are you that you think you must even blow wind yourself in the sails of the companies?
Since DECADES Germany does nothing BUT follow neo-lib ideas! Lowering taxes for companies.
Making it already easier to set people free. And much more.
Did it bring a single working place in addtition. Vice versa. If it helpes the shareholder value 20.000 [<- TWENTYTHOUSAND!!!] workers [including their families] MEAN NOTHING!
I tell you somthing chap. If it goes on like this I wouldn't mind anylonger to fight for my rights even armed.
This total exploiting of workers must stop - worl wide.
And please stop this repeating of crude ideas like "if the comany is well you're also well"
This is definately proven wrong.

In my opinion, it is better to have 3 different jobs in 3 years, than no job for 3 years. If you deem otherwise, it's you who is being anti-social

 

[E-Raser]

I work for a small company, that at a time had not enough work to do, and we had to many people to pay. So what happened? The boss stopped to payed us, because there was no money in the bank account. He tried to fire some employees, but he was denied it. So instead of allowing to terminate a few jobs to save the others, the company was almost entirely terminated because the labour laws where to rigid and protective.
That's your perfect system?

Ask why this company has troubles. Why are small and middle class factories buiseness and stuff not able to compete anymore?
Don't you see the problem is not the regid and protective labour laws but the reign of the multilateral BIG companies?
They must be smashed to make people live again.

 

[E-Raser]

In my opinion, it is better to have 3 different jobs in 3 years, than no job for 3 years. If you deem otherwise, it's you who is being anti-social

This is definately easier to hammer a nail in an oak with bare hands than anything but a neo-lib idea into your brains.
A pitty but you're lost.
If you're not able to see the evidance about the misleading of your ideas I can - and do not even wnat to help you.

 

[ainwood]

Ask why this company has troubles. Why are small and middle class factories buiseness and stuff not able to compete anymore?
Don't you see the problem is not the regid and protective labour laws but the reign of the multilateral BIG companies?
They must be smashed to make people live again.

Can you not see that a company going bankrupt means that all employees end up on the street? If the company going downhill is able to restructure, then they may be able to save at least some jobs. Which would you prefer?

 

[Winner]

Ask why this company has troubles. Why are small and middle class factories buiseness and stuff not able to compete anymore?
Don't you see the problem is not the regid and protective labour laws but the reign of the multilateral BIG companies?
They must be smashed to make people live again.

The only one who has to be smashed, are the socialists They constantly interfere with the economy, make things worse, they are killing the economic growth, taking jobs away from people, creating huge budget deficits and the list of their everyday crimes goes on. Their silly visions can work just in the totalitarian regimes, and even there they tend to fail*

Note: tested in practise

 

[Steph]

We now have a new bill that proposes a 6-month probation period for new staff, where employers can terminate the relationship without a long protracted process. Interestingly, it passed teh first reading, despite the government being opposed to it.

In France, we have one month probation period for non management jobs, and 3 months for management jobs. Then, you have a CDI (which is an unlimited contract). But in 1 month, or even 3 months, it's often hard to see if the employee is really fit for the job, as it is often the time you need to train him. New employees, especially young people, are very seldom efficient immediately. But after the probabation period, it's very hard to fire someone.
To avoid that, employers used CDD (limited contract), with a duraction of 6 months for instance, and no guarantee at the end.
The new law propose a two years probation period. But you are still considered to have a CDI, it means you know that if you work well, you could continue "for life".

The problem is many still see a employer as the eveil guys who only wants to have slaves and whip them so they work faster. Young think the employer will make them work hard for 23 months, and then automatically terminate the contract, to avoid hiring them.
They are complety beside the point. The don't realize the cost for the employer of training someone! You spend a LOT of time training new employees, having know your trade and your method. If you find someone who is good, you DON'T want to fire him.

Another point which never appear in the media, or in the youngsters strikes...

An employee who want to resign is not entitled to unemployement benefits.
So if are not well in a company and want to go elsewhere, you have to find a new job first. Or you will not get much...

 

[luiz]

The sad truth is that thanks to neo-lib crappy ideas the working class get's more and more exploited. The proletarians must make clear that they will not agree to this procedure any more. Paris is a very good start for this. To protest against the ideas of hire and fire is much more than just justyfied.
In Germany it is similar. That's why huge parts of people are on strike.
Fight neo-lib BS!
The world isd RICH! Devide fairly. If 90% of wealth is kept by less than 20% of the people it is more than one reason to revolt. it is in fact 90 Reasons to revolt.
Fight for the victory of real Socialsm. Forget neo-lib propaganda and strange comparisons with Stalinsm. Go and fight for a better life for the working class.
Since French revolution we changes only Absolutism against the Rule of the Capital. Now it is time to eastablish the rule of the people.
Rise the red flags and march! Upright bith braveness in our hearts we might fight against the unhuman neolib betrayors!

Long live Socialsm!

How can we forget Stalinism when this little "speech" is almost a carbon copy of stalinist speeches?

As for actuall facts:

-The world is not rich. Devide all the wealth equally and everybody would have around 8,000 dollars a year. Of course that's alot for some people, but that's no good at all.

-What creates wealth is capitalist enterprise. Destroy it and we will be all much poorer.

 

[Steph]

Ask why this company has troubles. Why are small and middle class factories buiseness and stuff not able to compete anymore?
Don't you see the problem is not the regid and protective labour laws but the reign of the multilateral BIG companies?
They must be smashed to make people live again.

Because our customers are administrations, which are so full of socialist and incompent civil servants that they need 3 years to sign a damn contract, that a private company would have signed in 3 months?

 

[Winner]

This is definately easier to hammer a nail in an oak with bare hands than anything but a neo-lib idea into your brains.

A pitty but you're lost.
If you're not able to see the evidance about the misleading of your ideas I can - and do not even wnat to help you.

Strange that your evidence is... oh, what evidence? You mean the unemployment, which is always higher in the countries with rigid labour markets? You mean the economic stagnation of the socialist countries? That is certainly an evidence - evidence that you're wrong, but you will of course never admit it, so this debate is rather pointless.

 

[ainwood]

The problem is many still see a employer as the eveil guys who only wants to have slaves and whip them so they work faster. Young think the employer will make them work hard for 23 months, and then automatically terminate the contract, to avoid hiring them.

These are exactly the arguments being put-forward by the left against the proposed bill. And as an aside, the biggest mouthpieces objecting to the bill come from the greens party - with personal who have long associatations with communist parties world-wide. Objective?

They are complety beside the point. The don't realize the cost for the employer of training someone! You spend a LOT of time training new employees, having know your trade and your method. If you find someone who is good, you DON'T want to fire him.

Another point which never appear in the media, or in the youngsters strikes...

I agree - we spend fortunes training graudates in our company - and the problem in New Zealand is that the "OE" has become almost a birthright - we train grauduates for 3-4 years, and then have them leave. Not a problem in itself - I don't believe in harnessing people to a job-for-life, but it is a disincentive to hire people.

 

[Masquerouge]

Let me say here that I do not fully agree with Steph

 

[E-Raser]

Can you not see that a company going bankrupt means that all employees end up on the street? If the company going downhill is able to restructure, then they may be able to save at least some jobs. Which would you prefer?

I am not as stupid. The real situation is just that exspecially tiny and middle class companies are going downhill where as those mutilateral companies are earning like crazy and even get TAX GRATIFICATION from the state.
Man: how perverted ist this???
The fact is that those managers setting free several thousands of employers earn immoral sums of money.
MAN: HOW PERVERTED IS THIS!!!
Another fact is that for example in Germany the birth rate is at an all time low! Because families are insecure. Job's are insecure and we're even paying the fee for the companies.
MAN! HOW PERVERTED IS THIS???

Everyone (almost) here claimes for a free market. But what does it mean?
Hire and fire?
Getting exploited?
Serving the market?

I tell you something. I am not made to serve the market! The market shall be made TO SERVE ME!
I am not willing to agree to 90% wealth kept by 10% of the people.
This is not why the Bastille was fought.
This is not why the Romanows were slaughtered.

Did we kill the king to replace him just by even more of the same dudes?

Völker hört die Signale
auf zum letzten Gefecht
Die Internationale
erkämpft das Menschenrecht

 

[AVN]

Let me say here that I do not fully agree with Steph

And I like to hear, with what you disagree.
I value your opinion very high

 

[FriendlyFire]

Europe's bloated welfare states and highly restraining labor laws are a blessing for the United States -- as of right now, they ensure that Europe will not reach its full economic potential and will be less of a credible peer competitor to the United States.

I hope these students are able to stop the government from enacting this law. Look at Europe; it has a larger population than the United States and is at roughly the same technological level. If it liberalizes its economic policies, look out.

the US also has massive farm subsitaries, steel traffies and car manufacture problems.

As for welfare, yes i can agree it needs to be cut back, welfare dependancy is a horrible effect of government welfare.