Place to Compare Notes Among Players About Gameplay, Bugs, or Suggestion & Request Before Asking Leoreth

[mccp77]

Hi all,

I apologize for this, but I have had multiple occassions where I've had very specific questions about gameplay, potential bugs, and strange historical tendencies that re-occur that I've been unsure if they were important enough to rise to the level of asking Leoreth about in one of the "big threads." As such, I was hoping some of us players could form a "study group" and help answer "stupid questions" for each other.

 

[mccp77]

At the current time I have 2 (if any other players / students in the class can help!):

1) In anybody else's games in 1.17 have states become much harder to collapse? Does anybody know what mechanic has caused this? I'd like to suggest a fix to Leoreth in the requests & suggestions tab, but I don't understand what's changed or if it's just me having idiosyncratic games.

The poster child for this is Spain refusing to collapse now, but I've also had information era Germany conquer half of Eurasia and remain stable. That's two examples to give people a sense of what I'm asking about.

2) Do AI English and AI Mongol conquers now no longer conquer India and China in other peoples' games?

I know Leoreth has been trying to cut down on the effects of conquerors, but England's and Mongolia's failures have begun effecting historicity in major ways in my games by leading to a ton of non-European New Worlds and Mughal superpowers / India-China Mughal Empires.

I want to make a suggestion & request that tries to marry Leoreth's desires to historicity, but first I need to make sure it's not just me experiencing this.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

1) In anybody else's games in 1.17 have states become much harder to collapse? Does anybody know what mechanic has caused this? I'd like to suggest a fix to Leoreth in the requests & suggestions tab, but I don't understand what's changed or if it's just me having idiosyncratic games.

I can report a similar experience, in fact the general trend has always seemed to be toward greater general stability at least compare to Rhye's original opus. I know since 1.16 Leoreth fixed several stability coding errors and tweaked some factors like Foreign, battles with barbs, and so on. You can scan the Git Update Log to get all the details.

2) Do AI English and AI Mongol conquers now no longer conquer India and China in other peoples' games?

Yes this is definitely something I've noticed. I'd credit the greater resistance to collapse discussed above for Mongols' failures to conquer China. In the past conquering Beijing was usually enough to cause a collapse, now the Chinese are able to absorb this and either outlast Mongols or quickly reconquer. I also strongly suspect the new Expansion system explains what were seeing just not sure how. I can't easily account for England's difficulty with India but can think of several and some even seemingly unrelated changes. Something as simple as Leoreth's changes to AI willingness to trade techs or the newly rewritten rebirth system that effects whether or not Tamils resurrect.

I'm waiting for the big man to announce he's actually begun development on 1.18 to start reporting anything that isn't a definite bug.

Funny, I just observed an autorun from 600 AD and the Chinese collapsed before Mongol spawn

EDIT: Ya know I think Mongols don't always actually DoW China in the first place. The would explain alot. I'm autorunning some more games to check.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

I started a China game in 600AD and killed time until Mongol spawn thinking the player would get it much worse than the AI. In the first game I most certainly did not, and saw pretty convincing evidence that its the Expansion system. *IIRC* war used to be declared pretty much on contact, with a huge army spawning near Beijing. In my game, and I suspect this is the norm, the conqueror armies we're used to seeing are only generated for wars against the civs to the west. The "army" you see is similar if not identical to what Spain gets in its expansion war against player Portugal in contrast to what it gets against the AI Moors (and these can be spawned more than once). Something else goofy happened because their big started army remained in the capital. Reloading 1190, they declared in 1290 but this time their starting army attacked from Dukhan where it had been waiting. I rerolled again and to summarize a multitude of outcomes ensued. In one case, Genghis offered me a resource trade and we opened borders, then their starting army wandered around inside my territory and the area where Mukden/Shenyang used to be (barbs raised it - its possible this was a factor since the city is supposed to flip to Mongols). Peaced reigned until they collapsed in 1440. I made sure to check tile tooltips to see if their expansion zones were still active and they were in both mine and in Korea. In no game was Korea attacked. Here are some assorted screens.

 

[mccp77]

I can report a similar experience, in fact the general trend has always seemed to be toward greater general stability at least compare to Rhye's original opus. I know since 1.16 Leoreth fixed several stability coding errors and tweaked some factors like Foreign, battles with barbs, and so on. You can scan the Git Update Log to get all the details.


Yes this is definitely something I've noticed. I'd credit the greater resistance to collapse discussed above for Mongols' failures to conquer China. In the past conquering Beijing was usually enough to cause a collapse, now the Chinese are able to absorb this and either outlast Mongols or quickly reconquer. I also strongly suspect the new Expansion system explains what were seeing just not sure how. I can't easily account for England's difficulty with India but can think of several and some even seemingly unrelated changes. Something as simple as Leoreth's changes to AI willingness to trade techs or the newly rewritten rebirth system that effects whether or not Tamils resurrect.

I'm waiting for the big man to announce he's actually begun development on 1.18 to start reporting anything that isn't a definite bug.

Funny, I just observed an autorun from 600 AD and the Chinese collapsed before Mongol spawn

EDIT: Ya know I think Mongols don't always actually DoW China in the first place. The would explain alot. I'm autorunning some more games to check.

Thank you a ton! I just had to make sure it wasn't only me experiencing these things.

 

[Pawlak]

I put this here, cos I am not sure where to put it yet. I will be frank with y'all if I was a modder I would remove congress mechanics in total. I kinda get it's appeal, and I agree it does in some ways get this 19th century feel, but it is not historic and it just makes playing small nations much harder for no apperent reason (IMO). Anyway I get that some may like it a lot, it is RFC specific and Leoreth chosen to keep it in DoC so I guess he is found of it as well, so I am not going to fight windmills trying to convince people here to get rid of it, if I ever come across modmod that removes it I will be happy, or maybe there is easy way to turn it off?

OK, but assuming that congress is here to stay, I would recommend removing vassal civilizations ability to take part in it. Otherwise you get such absurd results as in attaced picture. I mean, at least for me it is abolutely absurd, if anyone here believes it's actually feature not a bug, please tell me how this makes sense history or gameplay wise.

TBC I love RFC, I love DoC, I just fudging hate congress I guess. I used to like it early on but more and more I feel like it's just ruining my gameplay without adding much historicity to the game.

 

[Lzz]

You can use Worldbuilder (ctrl+W) to do it. Click Game Options once in Worldbuilder (fist icon top right) and disable congresses there.

 

[mccp77]

I put this here, cos I am not sure where to put it yet. I will be frank with y'all if I was a modder I would remove congress mechanics in total. I kinda get it's appeal, and I agree it does in some ways get this 19th century feel, but it is not historic and it just makes playing small nations much harder for no apperent reason (IMO). Anyway I get that some may like it a lot, it is RFC specific and Leoreth chosen to keep it in DoC so I guess he is found of it as well, so I am not going to fight windmills trying to convince people here to get rid of it, if I ever come across modmod that removes it I will be happy, or maybe there is easy way to turn it off?

OK, but assuming that congress is here to stay, I would recommend removing vassal civilizations ability to take part in it. Otherwise you get such absurd results as in attaced picture. I mean, at least for me it is abolutely absurd, if anyone here believes it's actually feature not a bug, please tell me how this makes sense history or gameplay wise.

TBC I love RFC, I love DoC, I just fudging hate congress I guess. I used to like it early on but more and more I feel like it's just ruining my gameplay without adding much historicity to the game.

I love the Congresses and think that they're valuable. But I've long thought that vassals shouldn't allowed to vote in them. I'd recommend that in the suggestions thread b/c it seems like a small change that would make a BIG improvement.

 

[Pawlak]

Cool, if I can diable it, then it is great, it is interesting feature but also can be super irritating. I still think that vassal participating when senior is deemed not important enough is kinda ridiculous, I guess baning vassals is easiest way out. Thx for help!

 

[MrFeline]

Whenever I play a New World civ in the 1700 scenario, I always lose the ability to trade with the civilization who I sprung from. Meaning:

- When I was America, I couldn't trade with England
- When I was Brazil, I couldn't trade with Portugal

This lasted the entire rest of the game - 100+ turns. Has anyone else experienced this?

 

[Lzz]

Yeah, it sucks

 

[Leoreth]

This bug has been reported before but to my recollection no one has mentioned that it specifically affects the civilization you switched away from. This gives me an idea what the reason could be, I will look into it.

 

[mccp77]

This bug has been reported before but to my recollection no one has mentioned that it specifically affects the civilization you switched away from. This gives me an idea what the reason could be, I will look into it.

I previously reported this bug as America, but when I did it was before I found one peculiar work around: If I declare war on the civ whose cities I am about to flip in 1775, the turn BEFORE the flip, then I have to fight them (true), but once we make peace I am able to speak to them again in diplomacy. I don't know if this might help with diagnosing the bug, but I thought it might be relevant as well.

 

[banzay13]

Playing Arabia, vassalazed Turic fast, have frendly relationship with them... and no conquer events from them. As i remeber, no matter they die or vassal - conquer event happen... Or am I mistaken?
UPD. I think I figured out the reason for that. Iron. If the Turic don't have iron, they can't build an army to conquer

 

[banzay13]

I love the Congresses and think that they're valuable. But I've long thought that vassals shouldn't allowed to vote in them. I'd recommend that in the suggestions thread b/c it seems like a small change that would make a BIG improvement.

Congrasses sometimes funny, yeah..
In a recent game for Ethiopia, Congress requested 4(!) of my cities (I miss UP Ethiopia from vanilla, and Hey! Who let the tiny US of three cities on the voting buttons) and 3 were approved. Of course I denied it. Which led to a global world war. And I thought I was going to lose a city or two. But, since I had already finished industrialization, and was still with Trubunaries (no time to switch) - I was able to quickly build up the army. As a result - the Aztecs, my vassals - collapsed, I knocked out France from North America, destroyed the U.S., India almost completely knocked out England, and Russia was battered in Europe. And I was so excited that I was ready to knock Spain out of North America and destroy the Turks along the way, but the uprising in Egypt put an end to those plans...

 

[Derdan]

Has anyone experienced being unable to raze cities during your spawn protection? For instance I can't raze Ur as Persia or Yax Mutal as Aztecs.

 

[Leoreth]

If you have a save with that issue please let me know.

 

[Lzz]

Has anyone experienced being unable to raze cities during your spawn protection? For instance I can't raze Ur as Persia or Yax Mutal as Aztecs.

I had that recently during a play as Tamils. I couldn't raze India's Visakhapatnam when I captured it. I don't have a save though.

 

[urbestfriend]

So is it just impossible for the Russians to vassalize? I've had a few games where I have succesful wars against Russia, sometimes drawn out long wars taking centuries taking like 20 cities alll the way into Siberia, once stomping them with tanks and taking all their core cities in 3 turns. Never have the offered to vassal to me. They would rather collapse or lose all their cities.

Also does anyone else just get every other civ refusing to trade with you around the late renaissance? I've had times where every other civ won't trade any techs to me at all, every tech trade is "we don't want to start trading this away yet"

Also AI is very stingy with trading to end a war. I could have 6x their power and stomping them and they won't even offer a tech for peace, usually just like 3 gold per turn, maybe some crappy size 1 tundra city they want to offload on me.

Not sure if there are bugs or intentional and if anyone else is experiencing this.

 

[1SDANi]

So is it just impossible for the Russians to vassalize? I've had a few games where I have succesful wars against Russia, sometimes drawn out long wars taking centuries taking like 20 cities alll the way into Siberia, once stomping them with tanks and taking all their core cities in 3 turns. Never have the offered to vassal to me. They would rather collapse or lose all their cities.

Also does anyone else just get every other civ refusing to trade with you around the late renaissance? I've had times where every other civ won't trade any techs to me at all, every tech trade is "we don't want to start trading this away yet"

Also AI is very stingy with trading to end a war. I could have 6x their power and stomping them and they won't even offer a tech for peace, usually just like 3 gold per turn, maybe some crappy size 1 tundra city they want to offload on me.

Not sure if there are bugs or intentional and if anyone else is experiencing this.

From my experience, vassalizing Russia kind of requires that you get to them before they start expanding east. Once they get big enough, they become convinced they're too big to fail.