Playable Natives - Ideas

[Deliverator]

From this thread:

1.11: Native victory & ability to play them

I thought now was a good time to start a discussion about what a playable Native game might look like, and dump out some ideas and thoughts.

First, I think it is important to address Wheldrake's comment that a native victory is anachronistic. I think a lot of the fun of Civ is the 'What If?'. No one seems to complain that Romans wielding rifles or Babylonians building space rockets is anachronistic. However, I do think it's worth thinking about 'What would it have taken for the Native Americans to repel the Europeans and establish their own nation?' Yes, it might be far fetched, but this is a game not a history lesson. I would expect playing as the Natives to be a big challenge whichever way you cut it. But can it be made a fun challenge?

Thoughts and ideas in no particular order (I know many of these things would be tricky to implement but it is worth having the discussion):

1) The massive technological gulf between natives and europeans is clearly the biggest obstacle. Knowledge is the biggest commodity they lack. The only conceivable way that the natives would be able to repel the europeans would be if they had the technology to compete economically and militarily. Gameplay wise it would be great if natives could have technological advances, perhaps triggered by totals in the Education yield. The more educated your population the more you are able to have specialists and build an economy/military. Technological advances could also be obtained from Europeans somehow.

2) Some kind of enslaving mechanic would be interesting so that Europeans can enslave the natives and put them to work (as the Spanish did with the Taino) or the natives can capture and enslave Europeans. Captured units on both sides can somehow achieve freedom/becoming assimilated. Assimilated European units (real life example) could have a special role amoungst the natives, in terms of teaching a particular trade to other natives or triggering technological advances. The natives could also kidnap units for ransom.

3) Actual victory could be achieving Nationhood, or, having achieved Nationhood, having to withstand a final European onslaught akin to the War of Independence.

4) Unique units for each Native race to add replayability and flavour. These unique units don't all have to have a military role. Some could economic benefits or have other benefits e.g. priests, medicine men, etc. For example, an Aztec Priest could perform human sacrifice on a unit for some benefit - there was a mechanic like this in the packaged Mesoamerica mod for Civ4.

5) Perhaps when playing the Native you could have a number of turns to prepare, before the Europeans arrive. A countdown to 1492. This would add some excitement and give the player a chance to get set up/expand before having to cope with the settlers.

Questions
1) What becomes of bells and rebel sentiment? Could they work towards nationhood instead?
2) How does land purchase would work if you are playing the natives?

I'm sure there are lots of other ideas/thoughts out there. Please refrain from the 'I think the whole idea is stupid' and try to be positive.

 

[kaibayashi]

I think that sending a colonist to learn a trade off the natives should work both ways... as a native you can send a brave to learn skills in a euro colony. send enough and you learn not only how to be eg a carpenter, but how to construct his buildings. or perhaps this could be achieved thru a single, but longer time spent in a euro colony. perhaps even technology trading could be brought in from civ4? perhaps for gold/goods or training a number of one euros colonists, and in exchange they teach you a profession, inc buildings and the ability to train braves your self??

 

[craigdh]

It's a difficult concept to work as from day 1 the natives start so much stronger... you land your little soldier and pioneer usually next to a village with 4 braves in it, and there're 4 more braves 2 squares over in the next village. If they were so inclined, they'd wipe the floor with you right then and there. Thus playing natives would equate to killing whoever you saw right away, and with very little challenge.

I think the only way to eliminate this effect is that when you play natives, you have to start at a point where the euro colonies are already somewhat established so you can't just go all out charge right away.

The other issue is that native players should have the ability to learn to get guns and horses on their own. Sending "missionaries" or just maybe through enough "production/education" points. Armed and mounted braves are decent opponents.

Of course, what do you do against fortified cities? Without being able to bombard them, you'd have no chance at all.

 

[craigdh]

And, if you eliminate the natives disadvantages, they just become another european colony rally. They have to be unique and playable.

 

[Deliverator]

Here is a good discussion on the same subject:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=292648

 

[Dale]

I've been thinking on this, and worrying about the time to successfully implement such a model. I mean, look at Pirates which have had several revisions, and they still suck (I'm on the verge of just setting them to 0's so they can't be played). I worry that adding in a native model will throw the rest of the game out of whack.

And I am fast losing personal time to be able to keep working on AoD2. I'm sure people are noticing that updates are further and further apart.

 

[Deliverator]

That's a shame, but I understand the problem. There seems to be a general issue trying to adapt the standard Colonization gameplay experience into new directions. I guess that accounts the small number of mods and modders around for the game.

What would be great if someone would create a merge of Civ4Col and BTS as a modding platform. The Technology Tree and broader victory conditions of BTS with the numerous commodities, resources, yields and graphics engine of Civ4Col. A massive undertaking. It seems this attempt fell by the wayside...

 

[Wheldrake]

From this thread:



I thought now was a good time to start a discussion about what a playable Native game might look like, and dump out some ideas and thoughts.

First, I think it is important to address Wheldrake's comment that a native victory is anachronistic.

In that message, I didn't suggest that a native *victory* is anachronistic, but that allowing them to build the whole panoply of european buildings, or to have european specialist occupations, seems anachronistic, or at least not corresponding to what we think we know about native cultures.

And now we see Dale hinting that there won't be that many more changes coming down the pipe for AoD. I fully understand your position, Dale, and I think making natives playable would be a far tougher challenge than implementing pirates. I agree that it would probably be best simply to set pirates as a non-player adversary, as there would be profound conceptual challenges to overcome to implement them in an interesting fashion.

Cheers, --- Wheldrake

 

[craigdh]

And I am fast losing personal time to be able to keep working on AoD2. I'm sure people are noticing that updates are further and further apart.

Totally understandable Dale... that said, I don't think you're very far from having a finished end product at this point. Maybe just some rebalancing, and beefing up the customs house (sorry, couldn't resist )

My straight up opinion is that pirates and natives are great to play against but wouldn't make it as playable civs. Natives especially. The simple fact is that in real life, at this stage of world history, how could the natives possibly have prevented european colonization of the Americas? Only by wiping them out en masse as they land a shore... once the euro's got any sort of fortified base camp established, their superior technology takes over (from a purely militaristic standpoint). Considering the game reflects these realities largely, it's pretty much impossible to work around. Natives win fast and early (which makes for a short and boringly predictable game) or they lose.

 

[Manu_b]

not sure really..
imo i would just disable Pirates as playable Civ and forget the Natives Idea.

Rather use the little time left to get the AI balanced and work out a few other things which are left. i.e. Trading specific ammount, aggressive AI (even if turned on aggressive AI i never encounter a war declaration only faster building of new colonies), Custom House or something to help the Large Empires eventually, the Starting Town more balanced as in gaining Capital like Structures (not sure why the first Town shouldnt have a Capital Building which Produces Bells or Cross or Hammers. This way you get a 1 Time building freely in the Capital which can produce either 6 Bells or 6 Crosses or 6 Hammers with a normal Colonist doubled with Specialist. wouldnt really outbalance things but help the startup a little bit. Prolly easier implented than the other ideas like Startup selection etc)

Thanks for the Mod in general Dale tho i would call it a day by now. Maybe some smaller fixes and maybe some more little easy implented things and be done.

regards

 

[Akrux]

When you think of natives you think of small bands of nomads and say to yourself how can they be a power in the game. Instead you should think of the Aztecs and Incas with big powerful cities spread out over a region. Historically the two things that directly caused the downfall of the New World natives were:
1) Disease killed 60 to 90% of the population which is not modeled in the game
2) With a few exceptions the natives did not embrace the Old World technology. They did buy guns but they never manufactured them. They did breed and use horses.

In order to make a viable natives game you might need to create a "what if" scenario. Forget history and think of what you as a leader with vision would have done in 1500. In this scenario the natives have the following advantages:

1) They have been there a thousand years so they have established cities with partially developed hinterland. Maybe native players start with two units 100 turns before the Europeans.
2) They can mine, fish and grow food at a faster rate than Europeans
3) Once they have horses they can breed them faster
4) Once they have guns they can manufacture them slowly (part of "what if")
5) Bells could be used to buy their own founding fathers with unique advantages.
6) No taxes but can trade with other natives as well as Europeans
7) Once they see a cart they can build carts
8) Once they see a road they can build roads

I think an playable game could be developed around the lines of letting the Europeans land and grow in size as you learn skills and trade with them. After that you raid and conquer the Europeans as needed to keep their size in check.

 

[Androrc the Orc]

Having a tech tree could help solve the problem, so that natives that made an effort to westernize could become New World powers of their own.

 

[Stacmon]

Native "victory" could be a very realistic possibility, depending on how it is defined. For example, the Iroquois Confederacy was a very powerful political and military force but lost this position when its members turned on one another during the American Revolution.

The comment made earlier about the tremendous starting advantage of the natives has a parallel in reality. Most of the Europeans, particularly the French and English, started with tiny settlements and few colonists.

Samuel de Champlain father of Québec and New France founded Québec City only after obtaining permission from the local native peoples. Had they wanted to, the locals could have swarmed the few dozen colonists that were present in the early years but that didn't happen.

Is it realistic for the natives to win a "victory" if we look back at the state of affairs in 1900? Of course not. Is it realistic that the natives could win a "victory," had things been different from 1500 on? From 1600 on? From 1700 on? I think so.

 

[Deliverator]

A lot of the ideas here are good, but it seems like if Dale gets any time to work on AOD2 it is better for him to fix the outstanding bugs and make a final stable release.

It will be up to another modder to implement a Native victory I think - I would be a pretty substantial modding project I think.

 

[Wheldrake]

It will be up to another modder to implement a Native victory I think - I would be a pretty substantial modding project I think.

Indeed, it would require a complete rethink of the goals and actions available to a native player.
- Goals: for a European player, the goals are (1) finding good city sites, (2) increasing production (most often by developing buildings), (3) increasing population, (4) increasing specialists, (5) building military units, (6) gaining founding fathers (for their cool bonuses) and ultimately (7) winning the battle for independence from the king. Almost all of these goals would require substantial changes for a native player to be a viable alternative.
- Actions: for a European player, most of the "fun" of the game comes from exploring the map, developing cities (increasing buildings), shuttling around goods, trading goods and fighting wars with (1) natives, (2) other European colonies, and ultimately (3) the REF forces. Again, nearly all of these "fun" actions will need profound changes to make the native player's game both interesting and significantly different from playing a European colony.

The biggest changes involve the ultimate goal, fighting for independence from the king. The native player has no "king" to rebel against. He has no "homeland" to trade finished goods with, and indeed the production of finished goods seems an inappropriate intermediate goal for a native player. The commodity-based culture of the Europeans just isn't something I tend to associate with native cultures, whether they be hunter-gatherers or militaristic empires like the Aztecs. Even the elaborate point-based system of acquiring founding fathers would need to be re-examined; at the very least they would need a whole new collection of FFs specific to their culture, something like "great chiefs" whose bonuses would reflect the cultural goals of a native nation.

As long as these fundamental questions remain unaddressed, I think there will be no real place for a native player in the Civ4Col game. Please understand that I don't want to rain on anybody's parade, it's just that any piecemeal approach to making the natives "playable" is doomed to failure unless these fundamental questions can be worked out.

Cheers, --- Wheldrake

 

[Aerion]

I agree 100% with Wheldrake. Even Pirates have turned out to be problematic as a playable nation.

I'd much rather see the time a resources put into making the existing nations and AI more playable and challenging.

 

[Dale]

Playable Natives as an idea is fantastic, but I won't have time to complete it. Also, Pirates will be getting turned off, but left in for those who do like to play games with them in (just a simple xml change to turn them on again).

 

[I-am-a-panda]

Natives should have to buy techs from Europeans (E.g. Shipbuilding, rifling, forging, horseback riding, monotheism etc.) and then but specialists to upgrade their villages into cities. This could then make them civilised, and be a precondition, or a way, to achieve a nationhood victory.

Another could be a sovereign victory, where they drive of all Europeans. This would then have to limit the amount of ships the Europeans can re-spawn.

 

[lumpthing]

If the natives can be made playable, which would be great in itself, it would open the door to making a version of Colonization that has the same kind of breadth as standard Civilization. i.e. if you can make a playable game that doesn't depend on an "off-stage" Europe to trade with, then you can make all kinds of historical scenarios. But yeah, it would take a lot of time and innovation, so probably won't happen...

 

[Wheldrake]

Natives should have to buy techs from Europeans (E.g. Shipbuilding, rifling, forging, horseback riding, monotheism etc.).

There are no "techs" in Civ4Col. There has been some talk at various points about bringing a tech tree into Civ4Col, but AFAIK that never went anywhere.

IMO, Civ4 is a far better vehicle for making playable natives with their own cultural specificity than Civ4Col. In Civ4Col the whole game revolves around the idea of exporting goods back to Europe. Any game concept that doesn't involve exporting goods back over the ocean to a distant homeland is going to require profound and extensive modifications to the Civ4Col concept.

This topic has been discussed many times before, and I invariably find that the folks arguing for "playable natives" haven't really thought through the fundamental changes this would require. I agree that it would be a very cool project, and encourage anyone with the ambition and programming skills to undertake it, but I remain skeptical.

Take a look at what Dale did with playable pirates. Pirates require far fewer profound conceptual changes than making playable natives, but in the end Dale found that the systems he'd put in place to make them unique and interesting just weren't working enough to make playable pirates a viable option. IMHO, making playable natives will be ten times more difficult than making viable pirates.

YMMV, --- Wheldrake