Please help me be a better warmonger!

[OTAKUjbski]

I wouldn't say I suck at warmongering, but it's certainly my weakest point. I can only just barely pull off domination wins on Monarch given more-or-less ideal circumstances.

So, I started a Prince game as Julius Caesar with domination in mind.

But 5,000 years into the game, though leading in nearly every facet, I was making the same mistakes I always make ... sad part about it is that I'm not sure how not to make the mistakes.

I know I would've won the game, but in no better way than any other of my crappy domination wins -- and thus not helping me to get better at it at all.

So here that game is. Hopefully, with the collective mind of the CFC warmongers, I can see how better to address warmongering.

Thanx in advance.

Spoiler Game Settings :

My thoughts on the start:

The two hills hidden in the fog look like Plains Hills. That being the case, settling in place gives me 3 hills just barely covered at pop 4, which I don't like.

Settling 1W on the Ivory puts enough food to cover 4 hills at pop 6 perfectly, gives me a strong city center and puts me on the river (connect other cities and, if lucky, Iron).

Settler 1st build lets me take maximum advantage of Imperialistic (especially if I settle 1W), so I lean towards that.

Worker 1st build would lead me to a Settler chop, but I'd rather save the forests for Praets.

Logical tech path appears to be BW -> Ag -> AH.


I look forward to any and all advice.

 

[Jet]

How about on the Ivory?

 

[OTAKUjbski]

How about on the Ivory?

That's what my gut tells me, but what about first build?

I lean towards Settler this time around to make quick use of Imperialistic while I research the Worker techs, but I don't know if things change when Domination is the goal.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

So I went ahead and played the first "round".

I settled on the Ivory, started a Worker and set 1st tech to BW.

Lucky me, my Warrior popped BW from a hut in the north!

I met Stalin's scout just a little north of that hut near a Desert Gold Hill and some Copper.

After my Warrior turned south, Rome's borders popped the hut in my BFC and guess what ... Hunting! I guess I'm off to a really good start.

Spoiler lucky huts :

On Turn 32, I finished researching Animal Husbandry and discovered Horses in my BFC.

So here I am with a Setter ready to go and an escort Scout set to finish next turn.



So what now?

Should I ...

• ... tech after The Wheel (9 turns) to hook up the Horses and start preparing a Chariot rush?
  
• ... settle the Gold in the north?
  
• ... settle the Copper in the west and prep an Axe rush?
  
• ... skip the Chariot/Axe rush and instead tech Iron Working (35 turns) to find the nearest Iron?
  
• ... all of the above?

It seems like an obvious answer, but most of my war experience is based in the Industrial Era, so I have difficulty determining the "best" early war decision.

 

[Powerslave]

You need The Wheel in order to hook up any of your resources (unless they are fresh), so definitely get The Wheel as quickly as possible. Your unique unit is the most overpowered unit in all the game, and you're wondering if you should get that technology? I'd say, "Yes."

However, get a library in your capital, and cottage every square that physically accepts cottages. There's no need for you to languish for 35 turns. You can get it down to 10 turns with a little effort.

Do you want to do a chariot or axe rush? Are you asking us if it'd be prudent to do so? Usually, it is, without a saved game, I couldn't really say. Too much of the map is difficult for me to read properly (try using control-b to toggle the brightness; I have poor vision and this is a major help for me), I don't know if you've met anyone yet, or any other variable.

When playing as the Romans, your strategy should generally be to get Praetorians as early as possible, and then keep pumping them out until you conquer the entire world (or, at least, your continent). That doesn't mean you can't do an axe or chariot rush, but you've got Praetorians, man! Use them!

 

[L4zXX0r]

I really like the spot west of your city, you can settle there, and get ivory, copper and sheep. I'd settle just one south of the Ivory. After that, my next city would be up north to get the fish, copper and rice. I'd settle that, right above the copper. This should give you three cities that will grow quickly, and healthily. From there, I'd begin my axe/chariot rush. Make sure you build the great wall for double the great general potential, and you'll be off and running. Find a source of Iron somewhere close, and colonize just for the resource. If you were not playing Rome, I'd say this would be an awesome start, but since Rome has Praets, and I see no Iron, it's only an OK location. Good luck.

 

[peter450]

A warlord unit or two can be quite usefull aswell, especially a warlord pret, as they generally get very strong odd's, city raider 3 + woods 3 then get the str makes for a good all round unit, which promotes a little better too thanks to the FS

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Your unique unit is the most overpowered unit in all the game, and you're wondering if you should get that technology? I'd say, "Yes."

I guess I coulda posed that question a little more clearly. I'll obviously be teching Iron Working soon

There's no need for you to languish for 35 turns. You can get it down to 10 turns with a little effort.

Iron Working in 10 turns !? You'll have to walk me through that one. (Or do you mean start IW in 10 turns?

Do you want to do a chariot or axe rush? Are you asking us if it'd be prudent to do so?
...
I don't know if you've met anyone yet, or any other variable.

I met Stalin's Scout north in the Jungle, so he's probably just above that. I met Montezuma's scout SW of my capital, so he's somewhere to the west.

My initial reaction to seeing forests and Horses in the BFC of a high- capital is to hook 'em up and Chariot rush something, so I do want to.

However, knowing that Praets may be around the corner and that I'm aiming for a domination win through probably constant warring, I don't know if I should save my production (chiefly the forests) for those or to just get started conquering right away.

When playing as the Romans, your strategy should generally be to get Praetorians as early as possible, and then keep pumping them out until you conquer the entire world (or, at least, your continent). That doesn't mean you can't do an axe or chariot rush, but you've got Praetorians, man! Use them!

Building Praets is an obvious choice and the only reason I chose Rome at all. It sounds like you've already answered my question about whether to chariot rush and build 'em.

Make sure you build the great wall for double the great general potential, and you'll be off and running. Find a source of Iron somewhere close, and colonize just for the resource. If you were not playing Rome, I'd say this would be an awesome start, but since Rome has Praets, and I see no Iron, it's only an OK location. Good luck.

I don't have IW yet, so it's a good thing you can't see Iron.

I didn't even think about the Great Wall for double GG points. I only ever build it for its other benefits. (See, I told you I can't completely think like a warmonger).


Thanx for the input everybody ... I'll prolly play the next few turns in an hour if anybody else wants to chime in.

 

[Diamondeye]

I'd say it's a rather good start, get wheel and pottery and get some cottages going, hook up horses and aim for the three cities that one of the above posted... I don't remember Stalins traits, but Montezuma is agg/spi, not a very hard opponent to take down with an early rush, plus his personality is horrible lategame. If you settle copper either second or third (if you havent found iron by then ), it would definately be worth kicking his butt... By the way, I am playing a Genghis Khan game of total warmongering... I have an early save where only 2 opponents are dead yet, if you would like to give it a try? (Just don't spoil, I still need to defeat Lincoln and Saladin in my own alter save)

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I'd say it's a rather good start, get wheel and pottery and get some cottages going, hook up horses and aim for the three cities that one of the above posted... I don't remember Stalins traits, but Montezuma is agg/spi, not a very hard opponent to take down with an early rush, plus his personality is horrible lategame. If you settle copper either second or third (if you havent found iron by then ), it would definately be worth kicking his butt... By the way, I am playing a Genghis Khan game of total warmongering... I have an early save where only 2 opponents are dead yet, if you would like to give it a try? (Just don't spoil, I still need to defeat Lincoln and Saladin in my own alter save)

Yes I would like it ... I've found myself getting bored with Civ lately, and the only thing that piques my interest anymore is becoming warmongering, since I'm not very good at it.

(posting an update now)

 

[Diamondeye]

Here, this should be the save...

You'll have to live with my name though

 

[OTAKUjbski]

So apparently remembering to screenshot pertinent events and saving before quiting to post is a little harder to remember than I gave it credit for. I can't count how many times I reloaded to go back and get a screenshot. I even forgot to save before closing after the first round and had to revert to an AutoSave.

After finishing my escort scout in Rome, I immediately started a second Settler to move in on the Copper/Fish/Rice to the north and settle Cumae. My Warrior found Moscow to the north amidst the Jungles, so I feared Stalin might try to move south past the Jungle and settle that spot before I could get to it.

My Scout replaced my Warrior, who made his way to watch over Cumae.

Sometime during all this, Montezuma settled a 2nd Clam/Corn/Pig city SW of Cumae and W of Antium along the coast. I hadn't seen Tenochtitlan yet, so I sent a "scouting party" of Chariots his direction.

War vs. Montezuma

In 1675, I spied an Aztec Archer escorting a Settler and declared war. I didn't want to deal with a 3rd city.

Well, I expected the Archer and Settler to make their way back to Tenochtitlan, but this is what Monty did with his guys instead.



For whatever reason he decided to split those, I don't know, but it proved to be his downfall. That Archer would've meant the difference between him living and dying.

So here's an example of how I'm not a good warmonger ... I just don't pay attention. Monty apparently had an Archer outside Cumae when I declared war. I'm not sure if he was in the fog or right next to me, because I didn't realize he was there until my Worker stopped chopping! As it turns out, I got lucky and won a losing battle!



So declaring war on an opponent without seeing all of his cities is actually a pretty bad idea. Tenochtitlan was defended by Archers on a hill! Nevertheless, 4 dead Chariots later (and 2 withdrawn), my last two Combat I Chariots had good enough odds that they were able to take down Tenochtitlan, which I kept, of course.

Had Monty moved his Archer back to Tenochtitlan with his Settler, I would not have taken Tenochtitlan by then.



A few turns later, I captured (and kept) Teotihuacan with reinforcements from Antium and Rome, which signaled the end of the Aztecs.

War vs. Moscow

All of my units moved north to "scout" Stalin, and I found myself in the same situation again when I spied a relatively weak Stalin moving to expand again.

Moscow is a holy city and is thus already at 60% defenses. Stalin has also promoted both of his capital-defending Archers with CG1. I'm in basically the same situation I was with Tenochtitlan.

I put myself on a draw against Moscow and figure if I can at least raze St. Petersburg and pillage some of his improvements, I might be able to keep him down long enough to clean up with Praets later.

So I declared war.



I sent one Chariot to raze St. Petersburg, which earned him two "rebellious" Warriors and earned me a GG in Rome.

So this is when I have to ask myself if I'm getting too lucky to be learning anything. Apparently Stalin thought it was more prudent to finish his Work Boat than whip an Archer! Wtf !?



So it was just like Tenochtitlan after all. I got lucky and won a 15% and a 35% battle back-to-back, but Moscow was going down either way.

Had Stalin whipped an Archer instead of finishing his Work Boat, I wouldn't've been able to take down Moscow.

As it turns out, Moscow had built Stonehenge, so I at least don't have to worry about my borders anymore.

Two turns later with the discovery of Iron Working, Iron was revealed right outside Moscow!



State of the World (an ode to Sisiutil)

My southern territory:



My northern territory:



The wilderness:



You can see in the above SS my opponents are now Saladin of Arabia, Alexander of Greece, Shaka of Zululand and Sitting Bull of the Native American tribes.

Shaka's territory is pretty obvious ... Alexander's border can just barely be seen SE of the Gems in the far east.

So now I need some direction.

• Sailing appears to be the best tech choice, so I can connect my Iron to Rome through Tenochtitlan & Cumae more quickly.
  
• Monotheism and/or Meditation to spread Buddhism to me and Shaka sounds good (I hear people calling Shaka a good "attack dog" ... you might have to explain that one to me.)
  
• A constant stream of Praets from Rome seems an obvious good choice.
  
• I'm going to turn Tenochtitlan into my GP farm/science city. Moscow could also serve a similar purpose. This'll be especially apparent when I get Code of Laws.
  
• But how do I handle & ? Should I settle Deer/Silver/Fur in the south, go for Monarchy or both?
  
• Should I settle the Marble and try for the Oracle and/or the Great Library, or is that too much of the builder in me speaking out of line?
  
• If I do go for the Oracle, what tech should I shoot for ... CoL? Math? MC?
  
• My economy is borderline toilet-bowl, so my instict is to stop and regroup, but I don't know if that's what a warmonger would do.
  
• And then there's the question of what to do with the GG. I want to settle him in Rome so all future Praets start with CR2.

As you can see, I've got so many choices, and I don't know which one makes the most sense as a warmonger, so I really need some direction.

The builder in me wants to rest on my laurels and spread Buddhism to the heathen masses, but that's not the goal here, so I have to somehow filter out the "builder" and the "warmonger" talking.

Thanks all ...

 

[Diamondeye]

That was neatly done, it almost sounds as you're trying to draw attention to the poor defensive AI than getting help... Well, anyways, dunno how much warmonger I am, but I'd get some hold of my economy - CoL is a must - and take the barbarian city and establish it as a border. Build up some Praets and catties (?) and take down the next neighboor.

 

[L4zXX0r]

Well played!

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I feel I got extremely lucky, but otherwise I take it my initial rounds meet approval ...

... but that still puts me at my limit.

I'm only any good with Ancient, Industrial & Modern Warfare, so this is usually where I lose focus and/or control of my war machine.

So to any and all of the warmongers out there, what should my next step be ... how best should I deal with this situation now?

Chiefly, how do I marry fixing my economy with expanding my warfront?

 

[Diamondeye]

By the way, not entirely ontopic, I completed the Genghis Khan map with a 1520 AD domination victory for 54817 points, getting highest rank... Give it a try yourself and see if you can do it better

 

[Daedal]

Sailing appears to be the best tech choice, so I can connect my Iron to Rome through Tenochtitlan & Cumae more quickly.

Sailing is good and quick. You'll need it eventually later on unless everybody is on the same continent. Might as well get it while there's a lull in the fighting.

Monotheism and/or Meditation to spread Buddhism to me and Shaka sounds good (I hear people calling Shaka a good "attack dog" ... you might have to explain that one to me.)

Shaka is very aggressive. If he's on your side he'll be aggressive toward your enemies... I don't like going the religion route since everyone's going to get steamrolled sooner or later...but if you can make it work go for it!

A constant stream of Praets from Rome seems an obvious good choice.

*drool* Indeed. Get some triremes going before you need them too...

But how do I handle & ? Should I settle Deer/Silver/Fur in the south, go for Monarchy or both?

I'd say keep the population low through whipping to control the . But the deer/silver/fur sounds good too.

Should I settle the Marble and try for the Oracle and/or the Great Library, or is that too much of the builder in me speaking out of line?

Bolded for emphasis. Your praets are only godly until other civs surpass them. Use that time to conquer. Clock's ticking...

My economy is borderline toilet-bowl, so my instict is to stop and regroup, but I don't know if that's what a warmonger would do.

Well... I've got a short answer and a long answer to that, but this is strictly IMO. Short answer is don't stop. Long answer follows. From the moment I get axemen (or in this case Praets), I don't like to stop and regroup until I see the end game timeline passing by... strategic peace treaties to gain tech/loot and build up forces are one thing, but from the sounds of it you seem tempted to start building an economy, which takes you in an entirely different direction.

I like to go SE instead of CE because that frees up my gold slider. By the time two civs are gone on the map, I'm usually down to zero gold and my economy can barely sustain itself at 0% science. This is probably a bad thing... but it's fun! And it works. If you don't like SE, you'll probably find you need to consolidate your empire and raze more cities to deal with upkeep.

In either case, war is what drives a warmonger economy IMO. Money from pillaging and razing enemy cities is necessary. Every turn spent not at war causes your economy to slip further and lets your more peaceful neighbors gain tech and culture, which is what they're better at doing than you (since you're focused on war). So that's why I'd say don't stop warring. If necessary, build faster units and boats to explore the world and find the rest of your enemi-...err, neighbors.

And then there's the question of what to do with the GG. I want to settle him in Rome so all future Praets start with CR2.

If you already have a favorite unit that has a lot of experience, I'd attach the GG to that. A GG'ed Praet with lots of experience is a very scary thing. But it's really a personal preference..

Good luck with your game, it looks like you're doing very well at it!

 

[Ryuk]

Sailing appears to be the best choice. Go for that.

Shaka is a good "attack dog" if you share his religion. Bribe him with cheap techs to attack other neighbours. Make sure he shares your religion!

Hmm....you are kinda short of gold to keep a huge army of Praets. If need be use up or delete some warriors that you don't need. You could take out the Barb cities to get more gold.

I think getting Monarchy is a better choice until you get more courthouses built. If you're comfortable then go for the silver and fur. At this point I think happiness is more important then health. You could whip the unhappy faces away too.

You may want to try building Oracle. It's good for generating prophets which could help build your Buddhist holy city. So yes, go for the marble.
CoL seems to be the best choice if you build Oracle because you could build courthouses and probably found Confucianism.

Maybe you should slow down your warmongering a little. Let me share my story. I was in a similar position and my science slider went down to 20% in my previous game as Augustus Caesar on Monarch. I had 3 neighbours (Khmers, Sulaiman of Ottomans and Boudica of Celts). I destroyed the Khmers and kept the cities with resources and wonders. I razed those that were near tundras.

The Ottomans had a Hindu holy city and all the civs share Hinduism as the state religion. I had enough praets so the Ottomans were afraid of me. I demanded Sailing from Celts and Mathematics from Ottomans and both gave in.

I invaded the Ottoman's Hinduism holy city after the Science slider went up to around 40%. Unfortunately i didn't have a prophet until just before Industrial Age. I had kept an extra great engineer who had nothing to build because i was too far behind in tech. I used him to start a golden age after the holy city was built and eventually i caught up with tech. I beelined for rifling and chemistry and invaded my neighbours before they could train riflemen. I vassalised both my neighbours. I could eventually catch up with the more advanced civs on another continent who had grenadiers.

You could try my strategy. I went for a Space Race victory and won.

 

[Diamondeye]

Attach the GG to a combat Praetorian, and go for CVI. A unit with that high base strength with in total +75% strength is a monster. Couple it with march and you have a killermachine.

 

[Elhoim]

Kinda off-topic, but what mod are you using for your scoreboard? Thanks!