[NFP] POLL: Civilization: historical or fantasy game?

[Tigranes]

The inspiration for the vampires is clearly Vlad the Impaler who did exist. That's at least my reasoning for putting them in the game.
Zombies on the other hand I agree, but at least they are in a whole separate scenario and not part of the main game at all.

Actual vampires with immortality and an ability to turn into bats didn't exist, no. Of course, they didn't. But people who drank blood and formed secret societies of "vampires"? They probably did exist. There were actual vampire hunters, too. There's definitely a historical basis for this kind of thing.

You are both patently wrong. Single work of fiction started whole modern concept of vampires. Single work of fiction started whole modern concept of zombies. Single work of fiction started whole modern concept of vampires. Single work of fiction started whole modern concept of Cthulhu.

Count Dracula is the title character of Bram Stoker's 1897 gothic horror novel Dracula. He is considered to be both the prototypical and the archetypal vampire in subsequent works of fiction. He is also depicted in the novel to be the origin of werewolf legends. Some aspects of the character are believed to have been inspired by the 15th-century Wallachian Prince Vlad the Impaler, who was also known as Dracula, and by Sir Henry Irving, an actor for whom Stoker was a personal assistant. The most widely known example of a vampire hunter is Abraham Van Helsing of the novel Dracula and in other works of fiction adapting or modifying that work.

To say that Prince Vlad, who is a national hero in Modern Romania and was very sadistic and cruel against Turks and thieves, was the inspiration for Stoker to come up with the idea of vampire does not mean that vampires are somehow more real than zombies. Yes, something that does not exist gets always inspired by something that does exist. Cthulhu was partially inspired by octopus, and octopuses are real -- does it mean that Cthulhu secret society existed throughout of human history? You are confusing chicken with egg when you refer to modern SM vampire "societies" as precursors of ancient societies. It was not a thing, pure and simple. Additionally, the way game implements these societies -- they imply that all of them started in ancient times and persisted up to the Future era. I just shrug my shoulders. If it makes some people happy that instead of making game more historical and smart they make it less so. But for me it's a wasted opportunity to introduce real secret societies. If you have ever played Sword of Islam mod in Civ4 and experience Assassins there -- you both would know where I am coming from.

 

[Deadly Dog]

I'm voting for Historical in general but I'm of course assuming that the extreme fantasy elements are left to modes and mods. I'd prefer that Firaxis didn't do the fantasy stuff and just leave that to the modders. Rather they worked on Map builder and whatever the modders are asking for.

I've tried my hand at modding, a long time ago I think it must have been Civ 2. Made a whole map of Middle Earth and set up armies for the War of the Ring with heroes and Nazgul. Of course it didn't work the AI would disband all its Nazgul to build more orc and troll units. But it was easy enough to paint the whole civ experience with a fantasy feel, and I'd rather Firaxis work on making Civ6 a nice engine to build scenarios both fantastic and historical.

I remember Neverwinter Nights, the last classic D&D computer game I really liked. The packaged adventure was kinda lame, but the developers gave the community tools to build their own worlds and put them online. It was incredible. Anyone who could run a basic server could host a Persistant World. Then NWN2 came out, and the world builder was suddenly way too sophisticated and PW's were limited to a sad number of areas. I don't think online fan content ever got off the ground.

I guess its one of those economic paradoxes where incredibly high demand fails to improve supply because of intellectual property and copyright. Kinda makes sense, like a paint store isn't going to sell you the formulas to make your own colours.

 

[Kwami]

You are both patently wrong. Single work of fiction started whole modern concept of vampires. Single work of fiction started whole modern concept of zombies. Single work of fiction started whole modern concept of vampires. Single work of fiction started whole modern concept of Cthulhu.

Count Dracula is the title character of Bram Stoker's 1897 gothic horror novel Dracula. He is considered to be both the prototypical and the archetypal vampire in subsequent works of fiction. He is also depicted in the novel to be the origin of werewolf legends. Some aspects of the character are believed to have been inspired by the 15th-century Wallachian Prince Vlad the Impaler, who was also known as Dracula, and by Sir Henry Irving, an actor for whom Stoker was a personal assistant. The most widely known example of a vampire hunter is Abraham Van Helsing of the novel Dracula and in other works of fiction adapting or modifying that work.

To say that Prince Vlad, who is a national hero in Modern Romania and was very sadistic and cruel against Turks and thieves, was the inspiration for Stoker to come up with the idea of vampire does not mean that vampires are somehow more real than zombies. Yes, something that does not exist gets always inspired by something that does exist. Cthulhu was partially inspired by octopus, and octopuses are real -- does it mean that Cthulhu secret society existed throughout of human history? You are confusing chicken with egg when you refer to modern SM vampire "societies" as precursors of ancient societies. It was not a thing, pure and simple. Additionally, the way game implements these societies -- they imply that all of them started in ancient times and persisted up to the Future era. I just shrug my shoulders. If it makes some people happy that instead of making game more historical and smart they make it less so. But for me it's a wasted opportunity to introduce real secret societies. If you have ever played Sword of Islam mod in Civ4 and experience Assassins there -- you both would know where I am coming from.

I'm sorry, but you're entirely wrong. Bram Stoker's novel wasn't even the first one about vampires. Even a quick Wikipedia read will show you that vampires and similar creatures have been part of mythology all over the world, long before Dracula was published: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire

I mean, it's Wikipedia, so take it for what it is, but:

During the 18th century, there was a frenzy of vampire sightings in Eastern Europe, with frequent stakings and grave diggings to identify and kill the potential revenants. Even government officials engaged in the hunting and staking of vampires.[73] Despite being called the Age of Enlightenment, during which most folkloric legends were quelled, the belief in vampires increased dramatically, resulting in a mass hysteria throughout most of Europe.[18] The panic began with an outbreak of alleged vampire attacks in East Prussia in 1721 and in the Habsburg Monarchy from 1725 to 1734, which spread to other localities. Two infamous vampire cases, the first to be officially recorded, involved the corpses of Petar Blagojevich and Miloš Čečar from Serbia. Blagojevich was reported to have died at the age of 62, but allegedly returned after his death asking his son for food. When the son refused, he was found dead the following day. Blagojevich supposedly returned and attacked some neighbours who died from loss of blood.[73]

In the second case, Miloš, an ex-soldier-turned-farmer who allegedly was attacked by a vampire years before, died while haying. After his death, people began to die in the surrounding area and it was widely believed that Miloš had returned to prey on the neighbours.[74][75] Another infamous Serbian vampire legend recounts the story of a certain Sava Savanović, who lives in a watermill and kills and drinks blood from the millers. The character was later used in a story written by Serbian writer Milovan Glišić and in the Yugoslav 1973 horror film Leptirica inspired by the story.[76]

The two incidents were well-documented. Government officials examined the bodies, wrote case reports, and published books throughout Europe.[75] The hysteria, commonly referred to as the "18th-Century Vampire Controversy", raged for a generation. The problem was exacerbated by rural epidemics of so-called vampire attacks, undoubtedly caused by the higher amount of superstition that was present in village communities, with locals digging up bodies and in some cases, staking them.[77]

And that's just one century in Europe. Note that Dracula wasn't published until 1897, well after all of that. So, sure, the current movie version of vampires that turn into bats and say "blah blah blah" and all that, that came from Dracula. But the idea that certain folks in Europe (and elsewhere) were actually vampires and sucked the blood of the living in order to regain life? That was hundreds of years old before Bram Stoker came along.

 

[HereticalAppendicle]

Its not even a matter of what "should" be in the game... its a matter of what I would personally be interested in, if its in the game. As long as the fantastical/mythological/supernatural/etc. elements are optional, I have absolutely no problem with them being in the game.

 

[PhilBowles]

I like that they are putting the most egregiously ahistorical stuff behind optional game modes. I think it's a reasonable compromise.

I think it is, but I'd prefer them to lock the fantasy natural wonders there as well - as well as their strange interpretation of meteor showers and their magic cavalry. Fictional leaders, when they have to be included, obviously need to be part of the main game - and while I'd prefer that they didn't exist it doesn't bother me unduly that they do.

Things like the Holy Grail and Bermuda Triangle I'm ambivalent towards - unlike the Fountain of Youth etc. the Bermuda Triangle really exists as a geographic region, it just isn't especially wondrous. It is however a feature people attach cultural significance to, which is ultimately what most natural wonders are. If they included it without the teleporting ships I'd be okay with it - but at the same time there's no real point to it being in the game if not for the fantasy element.

The Holy Grail is not a known relic in the sense that nothing that matches its description is known to survive, but it can certainly be imagined that it either once existed as a real item or that there could be a cultural artefact that's revered as the Grail whether or not it has anything to do with the putatively historical events that inspired the story. That's no different from any other Civ VI relic - none of them do anything beyond provide resources which reflect belief and cultural significance, so even if the stories used to attach meaning to them are fantasies or they're imagined to have mythical powers the items are still real historical artefacts.

The GDR was a fun joke in Civ V - I don't especially mind its existence in Civ VI, but I'd prefer that it wasn't an AI default to build them. It's the sort of thing it's good for players who like it to have access to, but those who don't like it don't have to be confronted by it routinely and in quantity even if they elect not to build it themselves. It's also a suitably generic idea - I loathed the Civ V X-COM Squad, which quite aside from being an unwelcome intrusion by another franchise (one I love, at that) made no sense since there weren't any aliens in Civ V to prompt the creation of XCOM or explain how they ended up with plasma guns.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

You are both patently wrong. Single work of fiction started whole modern concept of vampires. Single work of fiction started whole modern concept of zombies. Single work of fiction started whole modern concept of vampires. Single work of fiction started whole modern concept of Cthulhu.

Count Dracula is the title character of Bram Stoker's 1897 gothic horror novel Dracula. He is considered to be both the prototypical and the archetypal vampire in subsequent works of fiction. He is also depicted in the novel to be the origin of werewolf legends. Some aspects of the character are believed to have been inspired by the 15th-century Wallachian Prince Vlad the Impaler, who was also known as Dracula, and by Sir Henry Irving, an actor for whom Stoker was a personal assistant. The most widely known example of a vampire hunter is Abraham Van Helsing of the novel Dracula and in other works of fiction adapting or modifying that work.

To say that Prince Vlad, who is a national hero in Modern Romania and was very sadistic and cruel against Turks and thieves, was the inspiration for Stoker to come up with the idea of vampire does not mean that vampires are somehow more real than zombies. Yes, something that does not exist gets always inspired by something that does exist

You called me wrong, but you basically made my point on why they decided to put a "vampire" unit in the game because of the historical inspiration.
You can even see it in the design of the unit whose name is apparently Boyar Coleridge. Boyar just happens to be the titles of certain Slavic/Romanian noblemen.

I'm coming from where I don't see it as a fantasy "vampire" unit, but I'm recruiting a secret society of Romanian noblemen who have formed a blood pact.
If they went the route of more fantasy looking vampires like actual Dracula or Edward Cullen, I could see the problem. But to me conceptually the unit looks like a normal assassin with a blade who just happens to be spilling a lot of blood on the field.

 

[Tigranes]

I'm sorry, but you're entirely wrong. Bram Stoker's novel wasn't even the first one about vampires..

Did you miss my caveat about modern concept of vampires? Those you see in movies. Count Dracula started it all. Also according to Wikipedia. That book propelled this vampire nonsense into the mainstream, not earlier references.

Count Dracula is an undead, centuries-old vampire, and a Transylvanian nobleman who claims to be a Székely descended from Attila the Hun. He inhabits a decaying castle in the Carpathian Mountains near the Borgo Pass. Unlike the vampires of Eastern European folklore, which are portrayed as repulsive, corpse-like creatures, Dracula is handsome and charismatic, with a veneer of aristocratic charm. In his conversations with Jonathan Harker, he reveals himself as deeply proud of his boyar heritage and nostalgic for the past, which he admits has become only a memory of heroism, honour and valour in modern times.

Compare this with Twilight saga?

 

[Kwami]

Did you miss my caveat about modern concept of vampires? Those you see in movies. Count Dracula started it all. Also according to Wikipedia. That book propelled this vampire nonsense into the mainstream, not earlier references.

I guess you'll have to define "mainstream", then. I consider anything commented on by Voltaire and Maria Theresa to be pretty "mainstream". Besides that, Dracula came at the end of a long series of novels and short fiction about vampires. It might be the one that inspired our modern media, but it's far from the one that started it all.

But that doesn't matter, anyway, because the vampires in NFP aren't Dracula. They're really no more fantastical than ley lines, alchemy, Cthulu, or the Illuminati. I see far fewer complaints about all of those things, though.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Count Dracula is an undead, centuries-old vampire, and a Transylvanian nobleman who claims to be a Székely descended from Attila the Hun. He inhabits a decaying castle in the Carpathian Mountains near the Borgo Pass. Unlike the vampires of Eastern European folklore, which are portrayed as repulsive, corpse-like creatures, Dracula is handsome and charismatic, with a veneer of aristocratic charm. In his conversations with Jonathan Harker, he reveals himself as deeply proud of his boyar heritage and nostalgic for the past, which he admits has become only a memory of heroism, honour and valour in modern times.

I'm pretty sure if they used the term Count, or Boyar for the unit, and the term Gothic Castle, for the infrastructure, there probably wouldn't be as big of a problem with the game mode for some people.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Historical in this context means realistic. We are having Baba Yaga and Strzyga in Eastern European folklore as well does it mean witcher unit is historical polish UU? Come on guys I fully understand if someone is ok with vampires in Civ game, but convincing they are historical features is ridicolous. Unless we consider folklore as historical. That means minotaurs, elfs or trolls are as legit historical features as roman legions or reformation. I don't think this is a good definition of "historical" feature in this context.

I'm pretty sure if they used the term Count, or Boyar for the unit

in fact vampire unit is named Boyar in the game

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

But for me it's a wasted opportunity to introduce real secret societies.

Please, tell me how you'll introduce "historical" secret societies. What do you mean by "historical" societies? The Assassins? The Illuminati? The Free-Masons? The Knights Templars? The Pythagoreans?

Only the Assassins might fit, but in the great scheme of geopolitical where your leaders are literally immortal and you already have spies to neutralize your governors, I really don't see what would bring the Assassins that would be historical.
All the other "historical" societies? Well, the secrecy you put in them is as fantastical as vampires. Literally. Because those secrecies are works of fiction, like Dracula, written by people hating those societies and wanting to demonize them.
Knights Templars and their vast network of satanic orgies controlling every kingdom in Europe? Please, they were just bankers with a lot of money, they were nothing more secret than the Benedictine Order or the Medici Famili.
The Free-Masons? Yeah, they're secrets, but what effect would that bring? All we know for sure (so all that has been historically proven) is that they love egyptian references and do a lot of charity work. Go make it in a fun and interesting way. "Wow, you're a member of the Free-Masons! Use our mighty power to build your Sewers 25% quicker!". See? Where's the fun?
The Illuminati? Oh, please, they're typically ahistorical and fantastical.

So, please, I beg you to ask me this question: Which secret societies would you like to bring in the game that are 1) completely historical 2) with completely historical effects 3) with historical effects that are fun and engaging? (edit: with, of course, all the academic proofs that show that what you're proposing is obviously 100% historical)

They had to add a little fantasy just to make it interesting, so I'm glad they went all the way into fantasy rather than giving bread for conspirationnists.

they imply that all of them started in ancient times and persisted up to the Future era

The game also imply that every empire and every city-State ever founded started in ancient times and persisted up to the Future era. Why this is OK for you but when secret societies use exactly the same level of abstraction it's too much?

 

[Ezumiyr]

Civ is already a fantasy loosely based on history, and essentially iconic characters and buildings. History is treated as a story.
You are literally making Gilgamesh fight japanese samurai.

Anyone claiming they want Civ to be a 100% historical game is just too ignorant to realize that. Those people claiming to be history buff who are saying that Civ is a historical immersive game are ludicrous. Even the map is ahistorical. Yes, even if you're playing those maps based on Earth.
You're literally playing with toy soldiers in impossible scenarios ffs. It's like a kid playing with their toys, but with a more complex gameplay. History is just for flavor.

The real debate here is whether we like new stuff to be derived from history in a very broad sense or a more fantastical basis. It's just flavor.
And really, as long as the devs make a coherent game, I'm fine with anything. Fiction will always be a mix of realistic and fantasy elements, and Civ has always been leaning more towards fantasy.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Secret society is really MYTHOLOGICAL mode, Mythology is more than Greek/Egyptian/Nordic gods/goddess you know.

 

[kaspergm]

It's a hard line to draw, but personally I find Zombies, Aliens and Vampires to fall on the wrong side of the line. I know they are only in specific game modes, but basically that means I pay for game modes I don't want to play with.

I also agree Civ cannot be 100 % historical. Apart from the whole aspect of leaders that are from different eras, there's also the whole religion side of the game, which obviously if mythological to some extent. The difference for me is that stuff like relics, even if they might not have any actual magical or religious power, has played an actual significant role in the real world, which justifies them being in the game.

 

[Vandlys]

I fail to see the conceptual difference between zombies and vampires. Both do not exist. History is an "H"'s story. Human's. The product of Humans' brain such as myths and vampires and zombies belong to the Great Works of Writing. I can place my Frankenstein in my Amphitheater. The Civ series are supposed to be about human experience. Humans did experience satanists, and assassins and child soldiers. There is an experience with walking trucks so I can live with GDRs. My main complain is there is a missed opportunity with secret societies -- there were real secret societies but they decided to represent unreal ones.

In general people seem to confuse SciFi with Folklore. Aliens are possible human experience in the future. So are GDRs. Zombies and vampires are not possible neither before nor later.

Don't forget the important of "magic" in history. A lot of things we now consider superstition are things people used to base decisions on. To just leave them out is also not historically correct. We might know they didn't exist objectively, but the gods did hold sway way back when.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Secret society is really MYTHOLOGICAL mode, Mythology is more than Greek/Egyptian/Nordic gods/goddess you know.

Yes in did. It is kinda mythological. Vampires are defenetly mythological. This is what I am trying to say

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Yes in did. It is kinda mythological. Vampires are defenetly mythological. This is what I am trying to say

Why are people having issue with it? Mythology is indeed big part of history. It is not just mere fantasy. If you think like that secret society is... not really outrageous.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Historical in this context means realistic. We are having Baba Yaga and Strzyga in Eastern European folklore as well does it mean witcher unit is historical polish UU? Come on guys I fully understand if someone is ok with vampires in Civ game, but convincing they are historical features is ridicolous.

My point is the term Vampire and Vampire castle are obviously the names have turned people off and I don't think we would be having this discussion, if they should be in the game or not, if they were named with the more historical names of Count and Gothic Castle, if that makes any sense at all.

 

[GenyaArikado]

Actually Dracula vampire concepts came from Carmilla, which in turn came from Varney. Anyway I wouldnt mind if we had a not so subtle Daenerys ripoff with Dragons in another dlc

 

[AlanC9]

The more I read about this content, the more satisfied I am to just stick with vanilla.