[NFP] We need historical game modes too!

[Bibor]

I guess its a question of immersion and expectations.

In sim city, an alien attack disaster is okay, adding 5-color city lights is nonsense.

Civ 6 game modes are slowly drifting toward this kind of nonsense. I don’t mind, as long as it’s “in addition to” and not “instead of” which is exactly what we’re having right now.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Mechanically alien attack from SimCity is equivalent to Apocalypse mode but Civ mode is better designed. It's not random and you can play around it

 

[FinalDoomsday]

Sometimes it feels like their heart is not entirely in the historical setting of Civ they seem to inject little bits of fantasy/sci-fi here and there where they could be adding historical elements. We don't have a trebuchet but we do have a Giant Death Robot, we have compressed early eras but we have a whole era allocated to 'Future'.

When you look at their other main series XCOM which although I have never played seems to be heaped with praise and critical acclaim I can't help but feel their passion lies more there than with Civ. Perhaps that is unfair and I can understand wanting to stretch your creative wings a bit but as Boris rightly states there is an infinite pool of interesting stories, characters and creations to pull from history.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Want to thank everybody for their comments, both in general and specifically about my posts here. They have made me sit down and think about my negative 'gut reaction' to Fantasy in Historical 4X games.

I still firmly believe that complete Fantasy (Orcs or Elves hopping around the map) has no place in a Historical game.

On the other hand, there are a lot of fantasy/'unreal' elements that were Firmly Believed by people living in historical eras, and it seems, on reflection, not historical to leave out some representation of the beliefs. After all, people's Actions were influenced by those beliefs, and often to the point of having real historical relevance.

For instance, and they have been the subject of discussions in other Threads: Astrology or Alchemy as 'Techs'. They are usually described, at best, as 'pseudo-sciences' rather than 'real' technologies/sciences, BUT they were both immensely influential in the development of Astronomy, Mathematics, Chemistry and Physics. In fact, recent scholarship suggests that the Primary motivation for early Astronomical studies, calculations and observations was for Astrological reasons. So, without Astrology, Astronomy and Mathematics might be delayed considerably.

Likewise, the Mythologies of the world that include Vampires, Werewolves, Elves, Trolls, Magic Mountains, Fountains of Youth, Eldorado, Shangri La, Mordor, etc. were (and are!) very real to very many people. IF the game purports to show 'historical' actions and reactions, it is going to have to deal with actions and reactions to mythology and fantasy as well.

BUT, I'm still going to draw a line: No Vampires or Trolls or Soothsayers wandering the map. Instead, (in my Perfect Historical 4X Game - which I suppose is another Mythological Creature) the game should reflect the effect that people's Belief in Vampires or Soothsayers had on their historical actions.
As, for instance, the use that Vlad Tepes made of people's belief in Vampires to establish a reputation so fearsome that even the prospect of fighting against him made enemy leaders reconsider. Or the effort expended by various Europeans hunting for El Dorado or the Fountain of Youth or Prestor John.

It is, perhaps, too subtle a difference for many, and certainly doesn't provide the instant commercial appeal of playing a game that includes Vampires or lightning-throwing Apostles, but it can include an Army or Leader that are associated with Vampires and thus produce negative modifiers to their enemies, or a Prophecy by a Soothsayer (or Oracle, to bring it down to historical earth) that affects decision-making in a State, Leader or group.

And while the Fountain of Youth might be nothing more than a spring of unpolluted water that keeps your men healthy, the Search for the Fountain might lead you to discover Florida or Oklahoma - which may represent a random Effect, since, as in most such Searches, the end result is not what you started out looking for . . .

 

[Zaarin]

And while the Fountain of Youth might be nothing more than a spring of unpolluted water that keeps your men healthy, the Search for the Fountain might lead you to discover Florida or Oklahoma - which may represent a random Effect, since, as in most such Searches, the end result is not what you started out looking for . . .

Which brings us back to Tolkien: "There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something...You certainly usually find something, if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after." (Literally just read that last night in my annual re-reading of The Hobbit and LotR.)

 

[Mr. Shadows]

It's sad that this has to be said. The last several updates have been one disappointment after another. These aren't spin-offs like Beyond Earth, this is what they're doing with the core game. Personally I'd have been willing to pay more for quality content but it really stings to know that I paid for them to cheese it up with soothe-sayers, aliens and vampires. They don't belong in this game. I hate to say it but after the direction they took VI Civ VII might not be the game for me.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

It's sad that this has to be said. The last several updates have been one disappointment after another. These aren't spin-offs like Beyond Earth, this is what they're doing with the core game. Personally I'd have been willing to pay more for quality content but it really stings to know that I paid for them to cheese it up with soothe-sayers, aliens and vampires. They don't belong in this game. I hate to say it but after the direction they took VI Civ VII might not be the game for me.

You didn't have to pay for the zombies or aliens though. They came in the free update to everyone who owns the game.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

You didn't have to pay for the zombies or aliens though. They came in the free update to everyone who owns the game.

Nonsense, I paid for that update when I bought the game.

 

[Zaarin]

Nonsense, I paid for that update when I bought the game.

You don't have to play the scenarios. I certainly have no interest in them, even the historical ones. They have no effect whatsoever on the base game.

 

[The Civs 6]

This is a fantastic post. Now that you say it, it kind of blows my mind why they would go for stupid fantasy scenarios when they could just borrow from history, but do so in a way to change the base game rather than just making new scenarios.

It's sad that this has to be said. The last several updates have been one disappointment after another. These aren't spin-offs like Beyond Earth, this is what they're doing with the core game. Personally I'd have been willing to pay more for quality content but it really stings to know that I paid for them to cheese it up with soothe-sayers, aliens and vampires. They don't belong in this game. I hate to say it but after the direction they took VI Civ VII might not be the game for me.

Yeah I'm with you there. Everything about this game is increasingly just memes (Canada and hockey rinks, vampires and soothsayers, the list goes on). I guess they are trying to appeal to a younger generation who is more interested in the cartoonish side of the game?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Nonsense, I paid for that update when I bought the game.

Sure you bought the game but the update was free. Besides I've never played Red Death either so I've never experienced zombies or aliens either let alone made time to play any of the historical scenarios.
Besides there's nothing out of the ordinary and fantasy like in the main game that isn't optional, unless you count the lightning strikes for religious combat, so you don't have to play with them at all.
I don't personally want fantasy stuff either but the most fantasy stuff is optional and even then it's not too far out there to where I won't implement them in my games.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

You don't have to play the scenarios. I certainly have no interest in them, even the historical ones. They have no effect whatsoever on the base game.

What it comes down to is that I sincerely dislike the direction the game has been going for a while now. Of course I don't have to play, and lately I haven't been. If it keeps going this way I might not be playing VII. This is not what I thought I was signing up for when I invested my fandom in Civ. If they keep stinking it up I'll go do something else.

 

[pokiehl]

This is a fantastic post. Now that you say it, it kind of blows my mind why they would go for stupid fantasy scenarios when they could just borrow from history, but do so in a way to change the base game rather than just making new scenarios.

They don't have a single fantasy scenario. Every scenario in the game is historic in nature. The fantasy elements are in the optional modes, which are additive to the main game, and the Red Death multiplayer mode which is entirely its own thing.

 

[Pistol90]

I also dont like direction in which game is going ... I was first to call agains GDR, even open thread back then --- but now Vampires ... And argument you can turn it off is not good enough, they spending time developing such things instead what civ really is ... historically possible game, moon travel in 1880 could happen (if something in history changed before), great world wonders are almost all build by great empires and not small city states, even GDR is still at least technicaly possible (but in reality ??) ---- but VAMPIRES does not exist and never will, also those Sootsayer (or whaterer they are called) magicians ...

Give it enought time and Civ will become new fantasy game --- like Rise of Nations did or some others. These things really needs to stop, nobody is calling for Vampires or magicians in Civ game.

 

[oSiyeza]

I also dont like direction in which game is going ... I was first to call agains GDR, even open thread back then --- but now Vampires ... And argument you can turn it off is not good enough, they spending time developing such things instead what civ really is ... historically possible game, moon travel in 1880 could happen (if something in history changed before), great world wonders are almost all build by great empires and not small city states, even GDR is still at least technicaly possible (but in reality ??) ---- but VAMPIRES does not exist and never will, also those Sootsayer (or whaterer they are called) magicians ...

Give it enought time and Civ will become new fantasy game --- like Rise of Nations did or some others. These things really needs to stop, nobody is calling for Vampires or magicians in Civ game.

This is the wrong way to think about this. First of all, the content is here for the only reason the developers wanted to add this content to the game.

The question is: Is more content that does not change the previous content, and that you don't need to have, use or buy better for the game than no content? There is only one answer to this question. And the answer is yes.

"you can turn it off is not good enough". Why not?, you dont need to have it, to buy it or to use it. If it is optional and does not change the base game, how is it ruining the base game for you?

Sure you cannot buy the new civs separated from the secret societies, but you would not have the extra civs without the new season pass in the first place.

In other words, the only valid reason to complain is thinking you are not getting your value of the money you used if you preorder the game. Every other reason is just an emotional response that is completely invalid with an objective perspective. And if you have purchased the season pass and you now regret it, just remember you agreed to buy undisclossed content and also that the fact that you may not like it has nothing to do with the content itself.

 

[Killer Rabbit]

Just chiming in here to remind everyone that the original idea for GDRs quite literally came from a thread on this very forum.

I guess I can kind of see the purist angle, but all of this stuff is optional and fun. The devs clearly enjoy making this stuff. And in a world that is far too self-serious about everything, I'm okay with my historical 4X game (which remember, does feature apostles throwing lightning bolts at each other) incorporating a few light fantasy elements into optional game modes. I'd much rather that than some overly serious game.

 

[oSiyeza]

Just chiming in here to remind everyone that the original idea for GDRs quite literally came from a thread on this very forum.

I guess I can kind of see the purist angle, but all of this stuff is optional and fun. The devs clearly enjoy making this stuff. And in a world that is far too self-serious about everything, I'm okay with my historical 4X game (which remember, does feature apostles throwing lightning bolts at each other) incorporating a few light fantasy elements into optional game modes. I'd much rather that than some overly serious game.

Also is useful to remember that since the very first Civilization 1 game, sci-fy elements were introduced as you could literally colonize alpha centaury in a colony space ship. That then gave rise to the alpha centaury game, one of the best in the series and one that players of civilization have for years asked to be included in the main game.

Future tech, and future like elements have been in civilization forever, so when someone says there is no room for GDR in a civ game, then maybe they are thinking about a different game. Now, a capture from From Civilization 1:

 

[Pistol90]

This is the wrong way to think about this. First of all, the content is here for the only reason the developers wanted to add this content to the game.

The question is: Is more content that does not change the previous content, and that you don't need to have, use or buy better for the game than no content? There is only one answer to this question. And the answer is yes.

"you can turn it off is not good enough". Why not?, you dont need to have it, to buy it or to use it. If it is optional and does not change the base game, how is it ruining the base game for you?

Sure you cannot buy the new civs separated from the secret societies, but you would not have the extra civs without the new season pass in the first place.

In other words, the only valid reason to complain is thinking you are not getting your value of the money you used if you preorder the game. Every other reason is just an emotional response that is completely invalid with an objective perspective. And if you have purchased the season pass and you now regret it, just remember you agreed to buy undisclossed content and also that the fact that you may not like it has nothing to do with the content itself.

Religion was first something what was introduced in DLC (expansion) and now is standard part of game (what is OK, its maybe most important thing in history when it comes to concicvences) ...
Now we have expansion (which this is, just in 6 parts) whit magicians and vampires ... how long before they become standard part of game. What if they come with Civ 7 new ides of "bringing history and fantasy together" or something like that.

 

[Zaarin]

Religion was first something what was introduced in DLC (expansion) and now is standard part of game (what is OK, its maybe most important thing in history when it comes to concicvences) ...
Now we have expansion (which this is, just in 6 parts) whit magicians and vampires ... how long before they become standard part of game. What if they come with Civ 7 new ides of "bringing history and fantasy together" or something like that.

Yes, because Civ has always been a super-serious, hardcore historical sim.

 

[Pistol90]

Yes, because Civ has always been a super-serious, hardcore historical sim.

I will give up after this post ...

There are two things ... something is possible but did not happen (moon landing in 1777), Maori superpower in 2020, some random religion become most followed etc, etc ... those thing didn happen, but THEY COULD ... Vampires and magicians COULD NOT EVER HAPPEN ...

There is difference ... one thing is way which history rolls itself, another is how is universe built.