pre-warlords discussion: best use of generals?

[NaZdReG]

Being a warmonger in most of my games, I've been thinking about this particular debatible topic.

the general is capable of doing 2 critical things to a military production city.

25% boos in production when making units
+2 exp to each unit produced

since the barracks is dropping to +3 exp, they will miss that critical promotion we are all used to, be it medic or the specific anti-unit promotions.
so the +2 there would be immediately helpful to every unit produced.

on the other hand, the 25% would mean more units in a shorter time... resulting in a bigger but less promoted SOD.

I have a hard time seeing how attaching it as a warlord could be more useful than either of those 2 options... the first 4-6 generals should be dedicated to those 2 uses, assuming you have 2 production cities and the capitol which could be used for serious unit production.

I guess the big point in a warlord's favor would be when they say "the UNITS attached"... could be similar to armies from civ3.. will definately have to see how that plays out and factors into this.

well that is where I'm sitting so far, hopefully we can get a good discussion going on the subject

NaZ

 

[DaviddesJ]

The value of the GG as a warlord seems to be about 40 XP. That's going to dominate the value of 2 XP per unit, unless you build an awful lot of units. Plus you get the benefit immediately.

My feeling is that using GGs to buff up an army immediately before it marches off to war (or in the middle of the war) is going to be the most common and powerful tactic.

 

[NaZdReG]

well the info we have now is 20 xp divided amongst the stack. so for 10 units would be an instant buff.. but unless they came out of a barracks it would be a moot point. the other end of that.. they would have all just gained enough xp to spawn the GG.. so would probably be up for promotion anyway.

we wont know till we play with it, but if the warlord is joined with multiple units.. and can actually function the way armies did.. we would have higher level of survivability for the units bound to it.

very eager to see how that plays out.. this discussion will have a lot more information over the next couple of days.

NaZ

 

[DaviddesJ]

well the info we have now is 20 xp divided amongst the stack.

I think that's in addition to the benefits to the warlord unit itself. I could be confused about that.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I don't think the Warlord unit itself gets any Extra experience, it seems to only get
1-Access to new promotions (not actually getting them, but it can use the burst of experience)

2-Free Upgrades to new unit types

3-Possibly a few Free promotions

I don't think the Warlord gets any Additional experience on top of what it gets as part of the stack (it probably gets the biggest share though)


As for what to do with the General that you Don't use for a Warlord / Tech or Golden age

I think it depends on how much experience you are getting already

Assuming you have a Barracks

a General is equivalent to Vassalage or Theocracy (or a Stable for Mounted units) or the Pentagon, or the UB of the Mongols or the Spanish for specific unit types.

So Count how many "General Equivalents" you have [Barracks is assumed] the key points come at

1... allows 2 promotions
3.. allows 3 promotions for Charismatics
4...allows 3 promotions for Everyone else
5.. allows 4 promotions for Charismatics
7...allows 4 promotions for Everyone else

Another thing to Remember is that this is your military city... so after Heroic Epic (+100%), another +25% won't be that impressive.

I'd say using the First one for a Warlord would give you one solid unit, able to help rack up xp safely and immediately

to get the next one, which should either go into an
XP bonus (for the second promotion)
OR
+% to Production (if you are mostly using Stable+Mounted units, or Vassalage, or Theocracy...ie you are already getting the Promotion)

So whenever the next GG will give you a new Promotion level from your Military city, do that, otherwise put it in as the Production booster.

If the Production Booster is already In the Military City, and a new General won't get a new promotion. Then...
Choose between Warlord or
General=easier for new units to get new promotion/opportunity to stop using Theocracy or Vassalage.

 

[Watiggi]

I tell you what, I wont be wasting my first ever General on a +2 xp bonus or a +25% military production, tech or golden age. I will be using it as a Warlord - even if it is just to see how it turns out.

I do hope that there are lots of Generals in a typical war game, especially considering the number of uses they have (Military Academy and Military Advisor in every city - or many in one, etc).

I think that's in addition to the benefits to the warlord unit itself. I could be confused about that.

My interpretation is that if you put 2 units on a tile, then put the General there and click on the Warlord button, a menu appears and you choose who to attach the General to. The 20 xp is then divided between them both - so in this case it would be 10 xp each (resulting in 2 units in total, with the Warlord attached to one of them). I think there was some mention though of the Warlord getting free promotions and or something, so maybe it isn't so clear cut.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

I got Warlords today, and in a Barbarian Hordes game, I have gained three of them. The only use you have for them in that situation is to burn them on Warlord units. They tend to die when you use them against anything under 75 % odds...

 

[NaZdReG]

exactly gnarfflinger.

units are far too expendable to rely on a unit to survive long enough to take advantage of the free promotions a warlord offers. but if you use a great general to produce either of its in city effects it will last you the entire length of the game!!! Its too bad that we cannot use the warlord to produce an "army" like in civ 3 but what can we do about it (nothing) so atleast firaxis gave us those other options, otherwise it would be a useless unit that we'd never like to see

NaZ

 

[Gnarfflinger]

Actually, it's the only use you have for one in the Barbarian Hordes scenario...

 

[cabert]

Actually, it's the only use you have for one in the Barbarian Hordes scenario...

well, you get more generals and they die sooner.
looks like barbarian horde to me

 

[ekanata]

Some of my warlord won't see combat. I'll give the warlord's 20 xp to a horse unit and give it commando promotion. The unit will repeatedly pillage and retreat to a mountain where a guerilla promoted friend is waiting providing cover. Keep doing it until gunship available and then do it more

 

[NaZdReG]

well now that i've had the ability to use it a bit I have to say the BEST use especially in MP is to build the building that gives you the +25% to military production.

more production = more units = more wars = more exp = more generals = more production etc etc etc

after you get a few of those buildings set up you drop more generals into those cities for the +2 exp pushing the post barracks to an actual promotion. if your also running either civic that gives you exp bonus you get closer to their 2nd promotion.

running a charismatic civ is awesome for this warmongering strat.. and seems even more powerful than the aggressive trait. happiness to deal with warmongering, cheaper promotions means a promotion right out of the barracks.. and 100% boost to general emergence makes your military production stronger and stronger over time

NaZ

 

[futurehermit]

i would rather have better promoted units than more units (in single player)

 

[NaZdReG]

exactly hermit.. in single player the xp is more valuable. in mp the building really shines because you MUST crank units out as fast as possible to even survive a war with another player.

the % magnification applies to whipping.. making it all the more powerful

NaZ

 

[ptpan]

well now that i've had the ability to use it a bit I have to say the BEST use especially in MP is to build the building that gives you the +25% to military production.

more production = more units = more wars = more exp = more generals = more production etc etc etc

NaZ

I only have very little experience with MP, so I will argue for SP aspect only:

Your point about production is well taken, but don't forget in SP, it is crucial to have early war to take cities from enemy. This move has 2 effect: give you more city, save production (not building settler etc..) and cripp;le the enemy atthe same stroke (less city). It would be important to use the GG as warlord to ensure easy taking of anemy city (early too, since you can start attacking with less units than without the warlord). This move, in the long run, gives you a bigger boost to production than just dedicating the GG for city production in the first place, I would think.

Just look at the guides for any high level gams, almost all players agree that early war is obligatory, to negate the advantage that the AI has. The GG would be a big help used as warlord for this strategy.

 

[Araqiel]

My interpretation is that if you put 2 units on a tile, then put the General there and click on the Warlord button, a menu appears and you choose who to attach the General to. The 20 xp is then divided between them both - so in this case it would be 10 xp each (resulting in 2 units in total, with the Warlord attached to one of them). I think there was some mention though of the Warlord getting free promotions and or something, so maybe it isn't so clear cut.

This is exactly how it works. Warlords get no free promotions merely access to a couple of special promotions. All are good but the ones I'm most interested in are Medic III (+15% healing to all tiles within one of the warlord, Leadership (+50% experience from combat), and to a less extent Combat VI (+25% strength)

Honestly the key to using great generals effectively is to not get sentimental when you create a warlord unit. Take the +20 xp and use him like you would your first CR III axe. No good great general dies in bed if he can help it .

 

[Pantastic]

I think I like the +2xp on my HE city best, being able to kick out 2 promotion units without worrying about civics is very nice. Often I have that one city pumping out units while my others focus on buildings, it would help a lot. And once I get WP built in that city, I can start pushing CR3 maces for upgrades with only one of the +2 xp civics.

 

[A+ombomb]

The immediate experience bonus to a stack is probably the best way to use a great general. A stack of beefed experience units roll over the enemy, immediately producing even more great generals with very little time. This seems particularly powerful for an imperial civ or a charismatic civ, that both take advantage of experienced stacks a bit better (charismatic more promotions than typically, and imperial will produce more great generals making a nice cycle). This is taken purely from a MP perspective, which I play most frequently. In SP, I don't see it being any differently, though, as taking over early cities is far better than a small little boost to experience or production in only one city. In fact, I'd say that the +2 experience and +25% boost should perhaps even be global, or buffed if only 1 city...it seems far too weak in my eyes.

 

[Norseman2]

I would agree that Charismatic civs have more to gain from the immediate use of the warlord on a unit. For example, let's you're playing as Carthage and you get your general. You make a warlord out of a Numidian Cavalry (replaces horse archer), and turn it into a commando. Now you have a unit with 7 strength that can use enemy roads, and has a 50% bonus against melee units (so spearmen aren't going to help against it much), and that's still fairly conservative. I have no idea how many promotions 20 xp and charimatic would get you, but based on ekanata's post, this seems like it would be the minimum.

Once you have enough experience you can give it leadership, at which point it should remain quite powerful for a long time. At max strength bonuses, it will be up to 8.75 strength, and more like 11.25 strength against melee units. Until you get up to knights, this unit would be unstoppable. Musketmen simply wouldn't be able to catch up with it. Melee units would be useless against it. Cavalry up until knights wouldn't have the strength to bring it down. Since this unit would be so powerful so early, it would have time to get a lot of promotions while fighting easy units. For example, mobility, morale, and march. With those, it would still be useful well into the middle ages, for destroying terrain improvements and stealing workers. Once railroads come along, having a commando with this kind of mobility would just be devastating, assuming you can keep it away from knights and other cavalry which with Flanking I & II, and Tactics, seems likely (if it doesn't win, it still has a 50% withdrawl chance, and if it withdraws, it can use mobility and morale to move into terrain where the knight can't follow, faster than the knight could follow anyway).

Charismatic leaders definitely have a lot to gain from having an ultra-upgraded unit like this running around causing mayhem, or at least 25% more than everyone else. As for non-charismatic leaders, particularly imperialistic leaders, having the 25% extra production in a city will help get all the cities pumping out an army, and that will lead to more generals, which will lead to a stronger and stronger supply of troops, etc. The +2 experience is really only good for two things. Either you've gotten the 25% bonus on all the cities pumping out military already, and now you want them to put out higher level units, or you're playing defensively, and want a strong military that won't tax your treasury much, if at all. The +2 experience is really only worth +10% strength, if that, so it's like a 10% production bonus, compared to a 25% bonus of unit strength overall.

 

[Pantastic]

At max strength bonuses, it will be up to 8.75 strength, and more like 11.25 strength against melee units. Until you get up to knights, this unit would be unstoppable.

Elephants would be 12 vs 8.75 against it and pikemen 12 against 11.25, I'd prefer those as counters. Still quite a nasty unit, but you'd need to watch for those and use your mobility to keep from getting caught.

The +2 experience is really only worth +10% strength, if that, so it's like a 10% production bonus, compared to a 25% bonus of unit strength overall.

I think it's worth a lot more than that because it opens up the 2nd (3rd for aggressive) level promotions. It's not the straight difference between combat I and combat II that I would want it for, it's being able to produce medics (especially things like medic scouts who can't really get xp), cats with accuracy, the +25% unit strength of starting with CR II instead of I (which makes it much easier to win that first fight against a longbow), +25% unit strength of starting with shock or cover, and for an aggressive civ +25% from formation (formation pikes will slow even cavalry down a lot). I often run theocracy instead of organized or free religion for this, so using 1 great general in my HE city effectively opens a line of civics choices.

Also, since I'd use it in my HE city, the city will be producing at 200% from HE so adding a genral would make it 225% total, which is only a 12.5% increase in overall unit production, not 25%.