PREVIEW THREAD: staznesX

Azale

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staznesX

Welcome my children, do enter and partake in the acceptance of this new addition to the rich NES library. This time around I have attempted to take a mixture of the NES' I usually try, historical and radical althistories. I have made a PoD and fast-forwarded the world less than half a year. If all goes well, I hope to start this within a few weeks.

The timeline (below) was made by taking one of the althistory essays from the What If 2? book and adding a twist of my own, just to add to player flexibility. It has already been sliced and diced by some of our most intelligent of this forum *cough* Disenfrancised *cough*, but after reviewing I decided to go with it anyway. it should provide a good enough basis for a fun, multipolar game from the outset hopefully to its conclusion.

The timeline is followed by a preview of the maps that might be used and the rule system, which is very much based on NK's new rules. To be fair I did discuss many of the idea of his new rules, so its not like I just totally stole his ideas out of the blue ;) It is important to note, however, that NK is my savior and the messiah of my people, a god among men, and incredibly handsome.

Halifax Timeline

Spoiler :
Thursday, May 9, 1940 - Lord Halifax chosen over Winston S. Churchill as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom
Saturday, May 25, 1940 - Prime Minister Halifax signs peace with the Third Reich (by then the Wehrmacht had flanked the Maginot Line and captured Paris, leading to much the same situation as in RL).

Butler-Bastianini Pact
*total cessation of hostilities between the United Kingdom and the Axis Powers of Italy & the Third Reich
*a ten year agreement of non-aggression between these aforementioned parties
*the Third Reich allows the return of the British Expeditionary Force back to the UK unmolested
*the Third Reich will sign an armistice with France based on the occupation of Paris but not much more south
*the UK returns German colonies lost in the Treaty of Versailles
*the UK promises to demilitarize Malta & Gibraltar

April, 1940 - The Third Reich signs peace agreement with the Reynaud Government. France becomes a client state of the Germans. The only opposition to this is from Colonel de Gaulle, but he is unable to rally the support for a war of revanche.
April, 1940 - Before attentions could be turns inevitably East, Hitler dies. Hermann Goering, appointed successor and head of the Luftwaffe, takes command as Fuhrer in a swiftly dealt with crisis. Assault Eastwards is halted...

Notes

-the USA remains on its isolationist path, American support & sympathy for the Allied cause having dropped precipitously since the Butler-Bastianini Pact.
-Japan continues on her path to domination of the Pacific as in RL, though without being officially a part of the "Axis Powers"
-France attributes its failure to the "ultimate betrayal of the Perfidious Albion", which will have profound effects on the relations of these two nations for generations to come
-Anglo-American cooperation is basically nonexistant, which affects obvious fields of research and other endeavors.
-the Soviet Union anxiously waits on two fronts, wondering whether to trust the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact under a new Fuhrer or take the impetus and invade.



Maps of the World on July 1rst 1940

I have two versions of the map I wish to use for this NES. Both are based on the HOI2 map provided by flyingchicken, while I have another on standby in the classic Jason-NK edited map.

Spoiler :
Map 1 -
Map 2 -


Rules

Spoiler :
Playing

In theory, this is pretty close to most NESes.

Thus, I refer you here for the basic concepts.

Some special rules of mein Fuhrer:

This is not a wargame NES, though it is set in a WW2 timeframe. Therefore, stories and PC involvement with their nation will be rewarded though not to the significant degree that say, NK, is implementing for N3S.

Orders should be limited to a maximum of 2 private messages, even for war. I know you guys can do it, your all pretty smart. I set a length limit because I don’t have time to read extremely long orders without delaying the update. Below that, I can work with any order length: send me short ones or long ones as they please you.

[Nation Name] - Player
Government: Type/Ruler
Population: [Factions]
Religion: [Main Religion]
Economy: [System]; [Revenue] - [Expenses] = [Spending]
Military: [Leadership]; [Manpower]; [Armies]; [Navy]; [Cost]
Domestic: [Infrastructure Level]; [Projects]; [Cost]
Technology: [Description]
[Description]

[Nation Name] - Player
Government: [Type]
[Ruler] ([Attributes])
Population:
Factions: [Name (Influence, Loyalty)]
Religion: [From Most to Least Adherents]
Economy: [System]
Taxes: [Tax Base]; [Domestic Rate]; [Revenue]
Trade: [Amounts] ([Main Partners]); [Tariffs]; [Revenue]
Military: [Leadership] ([Leaders])
[Manpower]; [Field Armies]; [Garrisons]; [Navy]; [Cost]
Domestic Spending:
Infrastructure: [Level]; [Cost]
Other Projects: [Project (Cost)]
Budget: [Income] - [Mandatory] = [Available]
Technology: [Description]
[Description]


Government


Your government is simply the institution through which you enact and enforce your policies.

Type

What you can do, as a player, largely depends on what type of government your nation is, and this falls into two broad types.

Absolutist governments are any with no checks on their power. These can be Absolute Monarchies, Communist dictatorships, Fascist corporate states, anything in that vein. The main theme among these is that there are essentially no limits on the decrees that the player can make. Obviously, a ridiculous declaration will result in his removal from power, but theoretically he is immune from this sort of thing.

Non-Absolutist governments are, shockingly enough, governments that aren’t absolutist. These include a large variety of subsets: Oligarchies, Democracies, Constitutional Monarchies, Socialist Communes, and so on. The only real unifying theme between them is that the player’s power is limited in some way. Usually, this is by the opposition in the government. More generally, it means that some faction or another, be it the Aristocracy, the Merchants, or the common People can prevent your decisions from being enacted.

See the Population section below for more details on Factions.

In Democracies and Republics, then, there can be multiple players per nation. In other words, a player can take control of one of the opposition parties, and will lead them himself; when the ruling party gets unpopular enough, the people will vote the other way, and the opposition player will start sending orders; the former ruler of the nation will be the opposition party. I’m fairly certain that you can work it out yourself.

Ruler

Your ruler is essentially your avatar in the NES. However, just as God has only a limited number of individuals to choose as his mouthpiece, so you have a limited number of choices yourself. Unfortunately, you have no real control over genetics, much as you might like to.

Attributes are the qualities of your ruler (or administration). Instead of an arbitrary value or three, these is just a general list of traits to keep in mind. Some (most) of these will be prompted by your own actions: orders, partly, and stories quite a bit if you write them. However, some of them will be quite out of your control; if you end up with a complete madman, then don’t complain.

However, you can rest assured that your ruler will generally do what you want him to do, to the best of his abilities.

* * * * * * * * *

Population

Factions

The problem is, your ruler is not the only person in your lands, amusing as that would be. Most of your inhabitants will be grouped into Factions, which can be any number of things: a social class, such as “The Working Poor” or “The Aristocracy”, a political association such as “The Bolsheviks”, etc. These factions often overlap, so that some people (often many) can belong to, say, “The Proletariat” and “Communist Revolutionaries”. In any case, there are two stats to pay attention to for each faction.

Influence is a measure of the power of the Faction. It is an amalgam of how numerous they are, how much wealth they have, to what degree they make up the military, and so forth. Obviously, those with the higher Influence exert more leverage on your government, and vice versa. This is mostly common sense: in a Feudal Monarchy, the nobles will have more influence than the peasants; in a Democracy, the party with the greater influence will usually win the next election.

The Loyalty of the faction is a rather different matter, but mostly self-explanatory. This is how much they approve of the government, and are willing to fund it or follow its orders. This drops with things like increased tax rates, military defeats, economic downturns, and increases with things like tax breaks, victories, and prosperity.

Religion

Religion is the main belief system of your nation. This is usually the belief in a higher power, be it a god, gods, or spirits, and often a description of the afterlife. It can also simply be a philosophy.

The religion stat has a few additional uses in this NES, as it happens. Firstly, if the symbol * appears next to a religion in your stats, that is the official state religion. If a religion is bracketed (like [Christianity]), then it is directly persecuted by the regime. You may invest money into this persecution if you want.

Note that you have complete freedom in choosing state religions and persecuted ones. However, if you choose to spit in the face of your largest religion, you will probably face upheaval.

Standards of Living

Until you have an Industrial Economy, Standards of Living will be quite vague. However, in all eras, they will depend on a few major factors.
1) The size of your economy relative to the size of your population.
2) The quality of the land you live on.
3) The availability of food and other essentials.
4) Luxuries.
5) Government expenditure into helping your people (see Domestic Spending).

* * * * * * * * *

Economy

The economy of a nation is its production and exchange of goods and services, either within the nation, or between nations. This is crucial to the livelihood of the people, of course, but more directly for the leader, it is the basis for his taxes and thus his armies, projects, and everything.

Economic Systems

Economic Systems fall in one of roughly three categories.

The Traditional Economy is the most primitive system. It is based mostly on agriculture, a strong social system, and limited exchange of goods. The leader has almost no control over the economy; he collects taxes, but any more interference than that is almost impossible because of the limited communication with the countryside. He can initiate large projects to attempt to boost agricultural productivity or trade, but the reach of even these are limited.

Capitalist Systems are those where the government has a minimal amount of intervention in the economy. Unlike the Traditional Economy, however, they are more suitable for Industrial economies. Markets determine the distribution of goods and services, which are priced according to the laws of Supply and Demand, or how much the producers want to produce versus how much the consumers want them. The necessities for a Market Economy (sufficient infrastructure and communication systems) mean that it is unlikely to appear prior to Industrial settings.

In this economy, people take care of themselves for the most part. Social mobility is at its maximum, because all one needs to start a new industry is investment. Economic growth has the most potential under this system, requiring only sufficient credit to occur. However, given the lack of control over the economy, things can spiral out of control; inflation or recession is hard to prevent.

Command Economies are those where the government manages all aspects of production and consumption. These are actually the most complex economies, in terms of what they require to operate. In order to operate efficiently, a Command Economy must be able to keep track of everything that is supplied and demanded throughout the entirety of a nation, and allocate everything appropriately.

The effect is that a Command Economy has a 100% tax rate, so the tax state actually disappears and is replaced solely by the tax base. However, you are thus obligated to set aside a large portion of your revenue towards the feeding and supplying of your people, lest they starve to death. It is also prone to inefficiency, corruption, and has a slow economic growth. Social mobility is at its nadir. On the other hand, you have absolute control.

On the other hand, a Mixed Economy may be the best solution to your countries problems. With the development of advanced economic theory, a government may enact some policies of a Command Economy, while otherwise leaving things mostly alone. This is, in basic terms, what a Mixed Economy is. Tax rates tend to be higher under these, in order to support more government services, while growth is usually fairly steady, and Social Mobility is very high.

Economic Growth

This stat simply notes how fast your economy is growing. If it’s growing faster than your population, you’re in good shape. If not, then standards of living are most likely falling.


Taxes

Tax Base

The Tax Base is more or less the amount of taxable income that your citizens make. As I’d hope would be obvious, multiplying this by your domestic rate gives you the revenue you get from taxes.

Also note that the Tax Base increases by the growth percentage. Not that this helps much before the Industrial Age.

Domestic Rate

This rate is the tax on production at home. You can set it to whatever level you deem fit; that percentage of your production will be converted into cash available directly to the government. Note that raising a domestic rate too high will probably result in your people starving to death. Before this happens, they will usually rise in revolt.

Historical tax rates have varied between 10% and 70% for the majority of nations.

Corruption

Corruption is an invisible stat. It is, among other things, the amount that your aristocracy or bureaucracy will try to skim off the top of tax revenues. Naturally, to hide this, they will under report the total production of your nation. It may not be immediately obvious that something is happening to your revenue... But it probably is.

Trade

Trade is the exchange of goods between two nations.

It will happen on its own frequently enough. Individuals have never respected national borders as much as the nations would like it. It can also happen through the direct encouragement of a nation – setting up a trade route, policing it, sending embassies to the nations on the other side, and so on.

Tariffs

Tariffs are a tax on trade. Whatever level you set this at will take that percentage out of your nation’s total trade with other nations.

You can constrict or relax tariffs on specific nations or specific items if you want; simply note that in your orders.

Too high of a tariff will discourage trade entirely; attempting free trade before capitalist systems will make it equally worthless, as you won’t get anything out of the trade your nation conducts.

Historically, tariffs have varied between 5 and 50%.

Industry

Your industry is your capability to make raw domestic and military goods. Think of it this way: you can throw a billion dollars at your average Andorran. He can probably acquire plenty of raw materials on the open market with that billion dollars. But he isn’t going to be able to build a stealth bomber.

Industry, then, is a limiting factor on what your money can buy. The stat describes the capabilities of your nation to produce important items, both of military and other natures.

* * * * * * * * *

Military

Often, nations find it more effective to do their negotiating with a sword than with a pen. The military is your tool for dashing an enemy to pieces, or defending yourself against their attacks.

Leadership

The Leadership of your forces is very obviously how well they are led. This can go up or down depending on your leader (some will be brilliant commanders in their own right), or your tradition of military command (which can be anything from strong to nonexistent). This stat also notes the main leaders in your military.

Army

It’s all well and good having leaders, but what do they lead? Well, many of them will lead your land forces.

Unlike in many NESes, however, you will typically have to pay a great deal to maintain any kind of army for a length of time. This encourages you (in early times) to use temporary armies of levies and mercenaries, simply because you will go bankrupt trying to feed and pay a standing army.

Manpower is the pool of men which you can draw from for soldiers. It is your choice of how many to recruit, and what to arm them with. You can probably take more men into your army than your manpower pool; it is only roughly one to five percent of the population. This will result in serious economic problems, however. Manpower declines as you use it to recruit armies, of course, and also as they die in battle.

Field Armies are those forces which are currently armed and operating, either in your territory or in others. Their numbers are drawn directly from the Manpower pool. They must be constantly fed, and given new weapons. They must be paid, if you have a professional army system. As mentioned above, they will be quite expensive, and you should probably disband them when not using them.

Garrisons are more or less the same as other armies, however, they perform the essential function of ensuring that no one sacks your city in the middle of the night. Since they are in your own territory exclusively, they cost fairly little to maintain compared to other forces. Of course, you can always draw away your garrisons to bolster your field armies, sacrificing defense for offense.

Navy

Naval forces are, by necessity, somewhat different than land forces. You can’t exactly build a warship in a day, unless you happen to be a Viking (or the United States).

Ships cost a great deal to construct, and a fair amount to crew as well. You cannot simply pluck a crew out of nowhere, as they need to be fairly experienced at sailing. Even trained armies can go home in the off-season; a sailor must live by the sea. Therefore, only nations with a sea based economy will be able to easily recruit sailors. Other nations must train their men, and feed them constantly, otherwise their navy will go to seed.

It is immensely expensive, though the rewards of a naval force can be substantial as well.

Upkeep

Upkeep is simply the total cost of your army for the turn. This includes feeding and generally supplying them, as well as possibly paying them. The cost is obviously dependent on the terrain forces are operating in, distance from the last supply center, and so on.

If launching a campaign, it is wise to either maintain a slush fund for supplies, or ask me directly how much it will cost to supply your soldiers on such and such a campaign.

In some campaigns, logistics may well be crippling. Thus, it is a good idea to get a sense of your capabilities, before you run out of food for your soldiers, and they run out of patience for you.

* * * * * * * * *

Domestic Spending

Surprisingly enough, Domestic Spending encompasses everything you spend that isn’t directed into a military field. This can be any number of things, mostly limited by what you yourself might want to do.

These expenditures are usually regarded as permanent, long-lasting projects, thus they will be automatically included in your expenses.

If you want to start domestic spending in a certain area but are unsure how much to invest in it, simply ask me what it will take to do what you want.

Infrastructure

This is possibly the most crucial domestic spending stat, and is vital even for the most war based country. That is, assuming you’re not a roving barbarian horde. Infrastructure refers to your roads, irrigation systems, aqueducts, canals, and in later eras sewage systems and electrical systems. Maintaining a proper infrastructure is crucial for transportation of military forces and keeping a high standard of living for your people.

Infrastructure comes as a description, which tells you how good it is and where it is lacking. There is also an automatic maintenance fee for this stat. You can cut infrastructure expenses, of course, but you’ll have to tell me what you’re cutting back from.

A larger nation will naturally have a higher cost for its infrastructure.

Education

Public education is a rarity before the modern era. Most of history, then, will have relatively limited education systems, with private tutors making up the largest part. These tutors are obviously not included under your expenses. The only thing you probably have to worry about is if your king decides to sponsor some institution of learning, usually for a specific demographic. These would include academies for philosophy and the sciences, or learning places for civil servants, among other things.

You probably shouldn’t begin worrying about the creation of a public education system until an era when the government can effectively communicate with all parts of a country; this usually comes around Industrialization and the accompanying economic system mutations.

Patronage

As leader of a nation, if you have some spare money, you can pay important thinkers and artists to stay at your court and work for you. This applies to all kinds of people, of course: musicians, painters, writers, philosophers, alchemists, scientists, and so on. Naturally, these all have some positive benefits for you. Your culture may become regarded as the most sophisticated on the planet, or a genius at your court may make a scientific breakthrough.

Patronage is a useful tool for kings, but not necessary. It also declines in importance with the coming of capitalism. With command economies, of course, the arts are often heavily subsidized, but in a free market artists often don’t need the support of the state, though it always helps.

Note that these can take the form of grants in later eras.

Standard of Living

You can help boost your people’s standard of living by investing directly into their comfort. This can take many forms: unemployment benefits, social security, public housing, universal healthcare, and so on. This all, of course, is after the industrial ages. In earlier times, this would be more of a “bread and circuses” ideal: handing out free food, and that sort of thing.

Note that command economies absolutely must invest in standard of living to ensure that their people don’t starve to death.

Projects

You can invest in projects. These are usually more or less giant buildings or grand showoffery of technology, built for the express purpose of showing off a ruler’s power and wealth. Tell me what they are, and I’ll tell you what they’ll cost.

They tend to improve your prestige, culture, and people’s confidence.

* * * * * * * * *

Budget

This stat is self-explanatory. It details your total income, subtracts the mandatory expenses from ongoing domestic and military expenses, and provides you with excess revenue that you may either invest or keep.

Storing up money for an emergency might well be a good idea; you can obviously put your money into your treasury.

* * * * * * * * *

Technology

Technology should advance at a sensible rate in this NES. By this, I mean something that’s not terribly different from our own history, so don’t expect to discover nuclear weapons as Ethiopia in 1945.

There are a few key things to remember. Some technological advances are absolutely required before you can discover different ones. You can’t have space travel without calculus. Nor can you harness penicillin without a basic understanding of biology.

Also, while state investment can help move towards a better technology, it also may not help at all. Patronage is somewhat important in this era, but it will not in and of itself be the decider of technological progress.

On a final note, please do not tell me what you want to discover without telling me why you should be the one to discover it. Yes, I’m aware you know the concept of a crossbow. But unless your people have a time machine, they do not.

* * * * * * * * *

Flavor

You can pretty much add anything you darn well like as flavor into your orders. What your people eat, sing, dance, drink, use as a toilet, put up on the mantelpiece, use to skewer foes, read, laugh at, learn in school, whatever you think I’ll find interesting. And stuff you think I won’t find interesting, if you have a death-wish. I will note it down, and when writing about your nation, will take it into account.
 
Nations of the World

The following is a listing of the nations of the world as of July 1rst 1940, with heads of state listed beside. Only Major Powers have been reserved as of now and therefore there will be NO RESERVING IN THIS THREAD.

Take a liking to several nations, learn the timeperiod if you don't know it. If some of these -tentatives- drop out, perhaps that will be your chance to make a reservation on a major nation, but not until then.

Spoiler :
*Europe*
~Swiss Confederation [President Marcel Pilet-Golaz/ ]
~French State (Vichy France) [Chief of State Philippe Petain/ ]
~The Spanish State [President Francisco Franco/ ]
~Second Republic of Portugal [Prime Minister Antonio Salazar/ ]
~Slovak Republic [President Jozef Tiso/ ]
~Kingdom of Hungary [Regent Miklos Horthy/ ]
~Kingdom of Yugoslavia [Prince Paul Karadjordjevic/ ]
~Kingdom of Bulgaria [Tsar Boris III/ ]
~Kingdom of Romania [King Carol II/ ]
~Hellenic Republic [Prime Minister Ioannis Metaxas/ ]
~Republic of Finland [President Kyosti Kallio/ ]
~Kingdom of Sweden [Prime Minister Per Albin Hansson/ ]
~The Third Reich of Germany [Fuhrer Hermann Goering/ ]
~Union of Soviet Socialist Republics [General Secretary Joseph Stalin/Shadowbound]
~The United Kingdom [Prime Minister Lord Halifax/ ]
~The Kingdom of Italy [Duce Benito Mussolini/ ]
~Republic of Ireland [President Douglas Hyde/ ]

*Asia*
~Republic of Turkey [President Ismet Inonu/ ]
~Kingdom of Iraq [Regent Abd al-Ilah (for King Faisal II, age 5)/ ]
~Pahlavi Dynasty of Iran [Shah Reza Pahlavi/ ]
~Mutawakkalite Kingdom of Yemen [King Imam Yahya/ ]
~Kingdom of Saudi Arabia [King Abdul Aziz/ ]
~Kingdom of Afghanistan [King Mohammed Zahir Shah/ ]
~Kingdom of Tibet [Dalai Lama Tenzin Gyatso/ ]
~Kingdom of Thailand [Prime Minister Plaek Pibulsonggram/ ]
~Republic of China [Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek/ ]
~Empire of Greater Japan [Prime Minister Hideki Tojo/JosefStalinator]
~Dominion of Australia [Prime Minister Sir Robert Menzies/ ]
~Dominion of New Zealand [Prime Minister Peter Fraser/ ]
~Free Dutch [Governor-General A.W.L. Tjarda van Starkenborgh Stachouwer/ ]
~Empire of Manchuria (Manchukuo) [Prime Minister Zhang Jinghui/ ]

*Africa*
~Republic of Liberia [President Edwin Barclay/ ]
~Union of South Africa [Prime Minister Jan Christiaan Smuts/ ]

*North America*
~Dominion of Canada [Prime Minister William Mackenzie King/ ]
~Mexico [President Lazaro Cardenas/ ]
~Republic of Guatemala [President Jorge Ubico/ ]
~Republic of Nicaragua [President Anastasio Garcia/ ]
~Republic of El Salvador [President Maximiliano H. Martinez/ ]
~Republic of Honduras [President Tiburcio Andino/ ]
~Republic of Costa Rica [President Rafael Guardia/ ]
~Republic of Panama [President Augusto Samuel Boyd/ ]
~Republic of Cuba [President Fulgencio Batista/ ]
~Republic of Haiti [President Stenio Vincent/ ]
~Dominican Republic [President Manuel Troncoso de la Concha/ ]
~United States of America [President Franklin D. Roosevelt/North King]

*South America*
~Federative Republic of Brazil [President Getulio Vargas/ ]
~Republic of Venezuela [President Eleazar Lopez Contreras/ ]
~Argentine Republic [President Ramon Castillo/ ]
~Republic of Peru [President Manuel Prado Ugarteche/ ]
~Republic of Bolivia [President Enrique Peñaranda del Castillo/ ]
~Republic of Paraguay [President General Higinio Morinigo/ ]
~The Republic East of the Uruguay [President Alfredo Baldomir/ ]
~Republic of Chile [President Pedro Aguirre Cerda/ ]
~Republic of Colombia [President Eduardo Santos/ ]
~Republic of Ecuador [President Carlos Arroyo del Río/ ]


Reservations

~United States [North King]
~Empire of Japan [JosefStalinator]
~The Third Reich of Germany [das -tentative-, LittleBoots -tentative- ]
~Union of Soviet Socialist Republics [Shadowbound]
~The United Kingdom [Disenfrancised -tentative- ]
~The Kingdom of Italy [Dachspmg -tentative- ]

~The Spanish State [LittleBoots -tentative- ]
~Republic of China [Thlayli]


Input and Help

I did not post this preview thread to increase my post count or clutter up the NES forum (though it accomplishes both of those things), but to help improve this NES before it launches. I have been reading like crazy over this era for the last few months and I've developed a feel for the atmosphere necessary for a ww2-ish NES to be successful, though I am perfectly understanding of skepticism due to my modding record over the last few years.

Now, you guys can input anything except reservations. Bash the rules, add to the rules, think up some price charts for the military items, etc, but THESE are the most important items that I would like for anyone perusing this thread to voice their opinion on.

Military Representation - Simply put, pure numbers or regimented-representational numbers? How specific? Right now I have a fairly good military statistics database to work from that could construct all of the stats necessary so all I need to finalize is how the representation should go down.

Map - Which map do you prefer? If you feel like making a map and adding it to the voting process, go for it.

Name - I would like to avoid puns, but if its a really good one I'll consider it ;)

Time Increment per Update - It's not a WW2 NES, but if it became well...there is alot of stuff to cover in 1 year, if thats the update increment. Still, perhaps more generalization is a good thing. Argue amongst yourselves :p

If you guys can think of any other important items, by all means throw them out there. In the end though, this process is not a democracy, I am the Fuhrer of these proceedings and will decide upon the course I want, taking into account of all of your views even if your not joining the NES.
 
I might join this NES. Let's go!

Military Representation. Let's not go with pure numbers, as I do enough math at school. Let's go for regimented representational numbers. Brigades, divisions, whatever the army stuff is. You can subdivide as many as you wish to keep sane.

Map I like the map with provinces, but when filling it in, please don't just fill provinces in at a time. Why don't we just fill it in partway if the attack only succeeds partway? If you're going to go whole chunks of provinces at a time, I'd rather you not. You should then choose the map without all the lines drawn through.

Name: I'll leave it to someone creative to come up with this.

Time Increment per Update: Considering how WWII spanned from 1939 to 1945, that would be 6 updates...rather short. How about 6 months? Or even 3. I fear if we go month to month though, it shall be too short.

Rules: Look pretty good! I like it. Let's see how it runs.

One thing though, I imagine the opposition movement would be rather bored during the years where he can't impact anything...
 
Map I like the map with provinces, but when filling it in, please don't just fill provinces in at a time. Why don't we just fill it in partway if the attack only succeeds partway? If you're going to go whole chunks of provinces at a time, I'd rather you not. You should then choose the map without all the lines drawn through.

I definitely will fill it in partway, whole fill ins Paradox style is kind of dumb for an NES IMO :p


Time Increment per Update: Considering how WWII spanned from 1939 to 1945, that would be 6 updates...rather short. How about 6 months? Or even 3. I fear if we go month to month though, it shall be too short.

Well, remember that the war in Europe currently is a little cold. I suppose it is rather inevitable that SOMEONE will go to war and the world will drag itself in, so we could go on that basis and try 6 months.

That would be a 12 update WW2 in RL and that would seem to be sufficient.

One thing though, I imagine the opposition movement would be rather bored during the years where he can't impact anything...

They can write fancy speeches and make sure their base of support is not eroded anymore...or write fancy speeches :p
 
I agree with everything LightFang said. Everything. :p
 
Please, please, oh god please use a better looking map than that god-awful eyesore. I'd rather the Jason-NK map than that. Also, no province lines. Those are irrelevant. A) We don't conquer on a province by province basis, B) those provinces are, in many if not all places, entirely invented, C) they make the map horribly ugly.

Aaand I think three month updates is far too short, unless war breaks out. If I understand the timeline, the war has more or less stalled out with the Brits giving up, the French surrendering, the Russian Front nonexistant, and America isolationist. I don't see a problem with a yearlong update if there aren't fine points of strategery to consider.

Finally, I find the arguments for raw numbers most convincing, and therefore strongly support a military represented by number of poor shmucks in uniform, rather than divisions (although if you want to include number of men in a division for those who would rather have it that way... well, whatever floats your boat, I guess).
 
Azale said:
Military Representation - Simply put, pure numbers or regimented-representational numbers? How specific? Right now I have a fairly good military statistics database to work from that could construct all of the stats necessary so all I need to finalize is how the representation should go down.
Prepackaged units suck, prepackaged units suck, prepackaged units suck. Repeat ad infinitum. This is particularly compounded in a scenario such as this where different countries have well-defined armed forces already in existence all with wildly varying styles and degrees of organization. You simply are not able to stack them up against each other on a one-to-one basis on divisions, brigades, wings, or anything like that.

Map - Which map do you prefer? If you feel like making a map and adding it to the voting process, go for it.
I utterly despise that HoI2 derived map, and I think everybody who uses it is just a lazy bastard, but I'm particularly biased.

LightFang said:
Time Increment per Update: Considering how WWII spanned from 1939 to 1945, that would be 6 updates...rather short. How about 6 months? Or even 3. I fear if we go month to month though, it shall be too short.
Most wars only last about six updates. You shorten the timespan below a year and you basically turn this into a WWII wargame that will never get beyond conflict. Do you want a wargame or a general game? Azale just said he didn't want a WWII game--then don't go below a year.
 
I'm interested.
 
Regarding Military Organization Why not some freaky blend? People can organize units into brigades or divisions or whatever themselves, and each brigade would have two details next to it, kind of like in HoI: Organization, and Strength. This would necessitate a manpower stat perhaps to determine which divisions get reinforced first.

Or would that be too complicated and/or too focused on WWII for your taste?
 
Please, please, oh god please use a better looking map than that god-awful eyesore. I'd rather the Jason-NK map than that. Also, no province lines. Those are irrelevant. A) We don't conquer on a province by province basis, B) those provinces are, in many if not all places, entirely invented, C) they make the map horribly ugly.

Agreed on all points, it's just it was the most expedient thing to do so that I could illustrate the timeline ;)

Aaand I think three month updates is far too short, unless war breaks out. If I understand the timeline, the war has more or less stalled out with the Brits giving up, the French surrendering, the Russian Front nonexistant, and America isolationist. I don't see a problem with a yearlong update if there aren't fine points of strategery to consider.

Point taken, thats what I was thinking. The East could ignite eventually and so could the Pacific, but as of now it is not and it is NOT a WW2 game.

Prepackaged units suck, prepackaged units suck, prepackaged units suck. Repeat ad infinitum. This is particularly compounded in a scenario such as this where different countries have well-defined armed forces already in existence all with wildly varying styles and degrees of organization. You simply are not able to stack them up against each other on a one-to-one basis on divisions, brigades, wings, or anything like that.

You make a compelling case, I tried to find just a freaking general idea of what most nations consider a "division" or a "squadron" and I was pulling my hair out after two hours of scrounging around :lol:

I utterly despise that HoI2 derived map, and I think everybody who uses it is just a lazy bastard, but I'm particularly biased.

At worst, I think I'll use it as a holdover until I can get the Jason-NK map finished by someone (I tried it myself...I can't even get the France border right).


Most wars only last about six updates. You shorten the timespan below a year and you basically turn this into a WWII wargame that will never get beyond conflict. Do you want a wargame or a general game? Azale just said he didn't want a WWII game--then don't go below a year.

Well said. 6 month updates would lead to 20 turn decades...yea, that can't be had.

The micromanaging WW2 game (the co-modded one) is already being worked on anyway, so no need for that in this NES ;)
 
I'm confused. Your rules appear to be those just posted by NK.
 
Regarding Military Organization Why not some freaky blend? People can organize units into brigades or divisions or whatever themselves, and each brigade would have two details next to it, kind of like in HoI: Organization, and Strength. This would necessitate a manpower stat perhaps to determine which divisions get reinforced first.

Or would that be too complicated and/or too focused on WWII for your taste?

Too much added stat-age for a benefit that I don't exactly see...if the player really wants to bunch his men up, he can do it on his own in his own way for that players own strategic streamlining purposes :p But I don't want to officialize it, if you get what I mean.
 
I'm confused. Your rules appear to be those just posted by NK.

Oh they are. ALL GLORY TO NORTH KING


I have his consent to take them for my own evil uses ;) All credit goes to him of course.
 
I utterly despise that HoI2 derived map, and I think everybody who uses it is just a lazy bastard, but I'm particularly biased.
So true. I edited that map specifically so that I could do a lazy-NES in some forum I frequent (a "colony" if you will). Interest was low. One reply low.

Since this is going to be one of those serious NESes, i.e. not high-octane and somewhat zany like Daftpanzer's WW2 NES or crazy (for better or for worse) like Nuclear kid's, it is gladdening that that map won't be used with permanence.

Input: Military should be shown as something a head of government would be seeing: Men and equipment (maybe other things as well).
 
Military Representation - Simply put, pure numbers or regimented-representational numbers? How specific? Right now I have a fairly good military statistics database to work from that could construct all of the stats necessary so all I need to finalize is how the representation should go down.

How do you imagine using pure numbers? Especially considering the sheer quantity involved in this case.

I tried to find just a freaking general idea of what most nations consider a "division" or a "squadron" and I was pulling my hair out after two hours of scrounging around

Yes, it is a mess, but it still seems a much more adequate solution. No government and no general staff in this time period ever had to work with "pure numbers" for its military. Whatever the inadequacies of the prepackaged units, they seem to be the best solution in this case, even if that would be a major generalisation. Possibly you could simply reduce all units to a basic framework; a further generalisation, but I don't suppose you are willing to work with the different definitions of "platoon" for every country.

Map - Which map do you prefer? If you feel like making a map and adding it to the voting process, go for it.

Symphony D's map.

Name - I would like to avoid puns, but if its a really good one I'll consider it ;)

"The Phoney Peace"? "War and Rumours of War"?

Time Increment per Update - It's not a WW2 NES, but if it became well...there is alot of stuff to cover in 1 year, if thats the update increment. Still, perhaps more generalization is a good thing. Argue amongst yourselves :p

Year updates make sense to me. I suppose you could slow down to six months if a world war begins, but then it won't really be necessary.

I'd like to ask about the political status of the German-occupied territories. I assume that they simply remain under occupation, with their status ultimately undecided?
 
Yes, it is a mess, but it still seems a much more adequate solution. No government and no general staff in this time period ever had to work with "pure numbers" for its military. Whatever the inadequacies of the prepackaged units, they seem to be the best solution in this case, even if that would be a major generalisation.
The obvious answer to using raw forces is to organize them into units, duh. This circumvents this problem and dispenses with the utterly generic and basically totally inappropriate nature of prepackaged forces, furthermore keeps the scenario somewhat grounded in reality (the most massive stumbling block althists have), and ultimately allows for both greater flexibility on the part of military deployments and by virtue of forcing a manpower pool to be created, means that shattered units can be recovered and recycled, something that is not possible with prepackaged units no matter how much it is claimed otherwise.

"But it's difficult to do and takes up too much time."

Give players links to resources detailing the military organization of their given country, if you possess them. List out the raw numbers of men and equipment they have and then let them organize it, ideally based verbatim on the initial actual organization. The onus for keeping track of and updating their force structure then falls to them, and can be linked to in their orders. They then direct military operations by referencing units contained within that listing. Given such organizational structures are public knowledge, or at least, easy enough to find out for other governments, this could basically be done by having each player reserve a post in the thread and maintaining it over time.

The additional benefits of this are that these posts could be linked to on the main page, forming a sort of intelligence reference (thus sparing the mod questions) and allowing for criticism of people who fail to bother updating them.

This method has the best of both worlds, allows maximum end-user flexibility and tailoring (beyond initial provided forces), is realistic, based on real-world data, allows for easy provision of costs for a given unit down to a single vehicle or man, requires minimum maintenance for the mod, and heightens player involvement. I rest my case.
 
Military Representation - Simply put, pure numbers or regimented-representational numbers? How specific? Right now I have a fairly good military statistics database to work from that could construct all of the stats necessary so all I need to finalize is how the representation should go down.

I prefer divisions and whatnot as well. Hitler never had to order precisely 163,257 soldiers into France.

Map - Which map do you prefer? If you feel like making a map and adding it to the voting process, go for it.

Probably Symphony's map.

Name - I would like to avoid puns, but if its a really good one I'll consider it ;)

I don't have one for you now, but I think the ideas will flood when you do your 30th NES.

Time Increment per Update - It's not a WW2 NES, but if it became well...there is alot of stuff to cover in 1 year, if thats the update increment. Still, perhaps more generalization is a good thing. Argue amongst yourselves :p

I prefer one year as well, but on that note, we are starting halfway through the year, so perhaps nine months for the first two updates?
 
I'd like to ask about the political status of the German-occupied territories. I assume that they simply remain under occupation, with their status ultimately undecided?

They are under occupation and the SS & Nazi bureaucracy have not yet began to completely seep their way into the territories. The West has a flexible future but the East is pretty well decided.

Considering the Nazi lebensraum was really more oriented to the East...it is possible to see a situation where France and the Lowlands could be "freed" under total Nazi supervision in the future.

Denmark is rather too close to the Reich's center and both Denmark & Norway are too Germanic to escape being provinces of the Reich, having them have autonomy would be kinda counterproductive to the Nazi racial unity ideal.



I'm really liking the numbers debate right now, and I'm going to read and re-read Symphony's last proposal because it sounds really...good :p
 
It will require your players to pay more attention than usual. Attention, as we all know, is something that's sometimes lacking either by virtue of busyness or laziness.
 
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