[C3C] Protecting Transports

[Jivilov]

In a recent game--Emperor level as France on a randomly selected Standard Continents map--was ferrying a single Transport carrying an Army Leader across a strait to conquered enemy (Iroquois) territory. Four Destroyers and Two Cruisers provided escort. While stacked together in mid-strait an invisible enemy Sub engaged the Transport, sinking it, while ignoring the escorts. So if Destroyers can't detect Subs what's the best way to protect Transports from Subs? Thanks.

 

[Snowygerry]

Could be the subs specifically target transports in a stack - if that's the case the best way to protect them may be another, empty, transport,

it's been a long time since I played C3, so not sure

 

[tjs282]

So if Destroyers can't detect Subs what's the best way to protect Transports from Subs? Thanks.

Destroyers (and AEGIS Cruisers) can "Detect Invisible", but only within 2 tiles of their location (i.e. a 5x5 diamond) while moving. Once sentried or fortified, their detection radius expands to 3 tiles (7x7).

But ordinary Subs (Mass Production) have M=4, and Nuclear Subs (Fission) have M=5 (Both M-values +1 if SEA, and/or +1 if the Sub's owner controls Magellans). Both Sub-types also have "Stealth Attack" against all ship-types, which means they can target Transports without first engaging the escorts.

So stacking all your Destroyers/AEGIS on top of your Transport(s) is not an effective anti-Sub tactic, since both Sub-types will be able to attack from beyond detection-range. All modern ships are bombard-capable, so the Destroyers/AEGIS can fire a single defensive shot against an incoming Sub — but IIRC Destroyers do not have lethal Sea-bombard, so would not be able to sink a redlined Sub with that shot.

And since the AI knows where all your units are at all times, including empty 'decoy' Transports in your convoy may not work either, since the AI may be able to simply ignore them in favour of attacking the loaded one(s). Even if they can't then escape afterwards, at 100–140 shields, they are still a relatively cheap sacrifice vs. a Transport containing Tanks (up to 700 shields) or Modern Armor (up to 820 shields) — or an MGL (priceless!).

The best tactic would therefore be to (also) deploy a couple of Destroyers as outriders ahead and either side of your Transport-stack. Or, if the strait you want to cross is long/narrow enough, permanently station several Destroyers at either end of it, to prevent Subs from sneaking in. Then use your Destroyers (or Bombers) to damage/kill any enemy Subs that you spot, before they can get close enough to attack your Transports.

(Alternatively, mod the game to enable all land-units — including MGLs — to be Airlifted... )

 

[justanick]

One expensive option is to deploy ships at each of the 8 tiles adjacent to the tile where the transport is and thereby protect the transport.

While this is an option it may not be a smart choice.

 

[vorlon_mi]

Many thanks, @tjs282 , for the excellent detailed reply.

My first thought was, "that explains the AI's jerky, one-step-at-a-time, algorithm for moving its naval stacks." And it would, except I've never seen the AI break its formation and peel off an escort to go attack a submarine that it saw / passed by.

With very precious cargo, one could sweep ahead with destroyers, looking for subs while you still have moves left. If the AI subs are lurking in a coastal city, that won't uncover them though.

One could also do something like the old "ship chain" technique with a series of transports. That requires advance planning; one can never really PLAN when you will get an MGL that you need to bring home.

Using destroyers as pickets and having bombers at each end to attack the AI subs is probably the best approach.

 

[Jivilov]

Destroyers (and AEGIS Cruisers) can "Detect Invisible", but only within 2 tiles of their location (i.e. a 5x5 diamond) while moving. Once sentried or fortified, their detection radius expands to 3 tiles (7x7).

But ordinary Subs (Mass Production) have M=4, and Nuclear Subs (Fission) have M=5 (Both M-values +1 if SEA, and/or +1 if the Sub's owner controls Magellans). Both Sub-types also have "Stealth Attack" against all ship-types, which means they can target Transports without first engaging the escorts.

So stacking all your Destroyers/AEGIS on top of your Transport(s) is not an effective anti-Sub tactic, since both Sub-types will be able to attack from beyond detection-range. All modern ships are bombard-capable, so the Destroyers/AEGIS can fire a single defensive shot against an incoming Sub — but IIRC Destroyers do not have lethal Sea-bombard, so would not be able to sink a redlined Sub with that shot.

And since the AI knows where all your units are at all times, including empty 'decoy' Transports in your convoy may not work either, since the AI may be able to simply ignore them in favour of attacking the loaded one(s). Even if they can't then escape afterwards, at 100–140 shields, they are still a relatively cheap sacrifice vs. a Transport containing Tanks (up to 700 shields) or Modern Armor (up to 820 shields) — or an MGL (priceless!).

The best tactic would therefore be to (also) deploy a couple of Destroyers as outriders ahead and either side of your Transport-stack. Or, if the strait you want to cross is long/narrow enough, permanently station several Destroyers at either end of it, to prevent Subs from sneaking in. Then use your Destroyers (or Bombers) to damage/kill any enemy Subs that you spot, before they can get close enough to attack your Transports.

(Alternatively, mod the game to enable all land-units — including MGLs — to be Airlifted... )

A wealth of information here. Perhaps that explains why Destroyers are given an extra move, so they can deploy around the escorted stack. Since in the aforementioned case the strait was too wide to seal off the "outrider" option would've been advisable. Next time!

 

[tjs282]

Since in the aforementioned case the strait was too wide to seal off the "outrider" option would've been advisable. Next time!

Or (unless this is a HOF/GOTM?) you could, y'know, reload from an earlier autosave and replay that turn...

 

[Jivilov]

Or (unless this is a HOF/GOTM?) you could, y'know, reload from an earlier autosave and replay that turn...

It's not HOF/GOTM but losing an Army Leader isn't as bad as losing an MGL; was cranking out Leaders from the Military Academy every 8 turns. After the peace treaty with Hiawatha sent a couple more with no problem. Besides, it's the principle of the thing . BTW a Cautious Temujin--reduced to a miserable 3-tile islet--actually voted for me (Joan) despite being only Cautious. Suede expressed skepticism so I sent him the last-turn save (he hasn't responded yet). In case anybody's interested here it is:

 

[Jivilov]

Sorry for the double post but it seems that I saved it AFTER hitting the "play a few more turns" option. Unfortunately there's no other saves so there's no way to prove a Cautious Mongol voted for Joan. Sorry for the bum steer.

 

[Tasonne]

And since the AI knows where all your units are at all times, including empty 'decoy' Transports in your convoy may not work either, since the AI may be able to simply ignore them in favour of attacking the loaded one(s). Even if they can't then escape afterwards, at 100–140 shields, they are still a relatively cheap sacrifice vs. a Transport containing Tanks (up to 700 shields) or Modern Armor (up to 820 shields) — or an MGL (priceless!).

Against a human opponent though, the decoy transport method is a viable defense method?

 

[tjs282]

Against a human opponent though, the decoy transport method is a viable defense method?

I've never played an MP-game myself, so I can't say for certain — but it would seem very likely.

Because when the stealth-attack target-list appears, it doesn't show any distinction between loaded and empty transport-ships, implying that the attacker would just have to pick a target at random, and hope they get lucky.

 

[Tasonne]

I've never played an MP-game myself, so I can't say for certain — but it would seem very likely.

Because when the stealth-attack target-list appears, it doesn't show any distinction between loaded and empty transport-ships, implying that the attacker would just have to pick a target at random, and hope they get lucky.

Nice. You know though.. While we're talking about subs, I would like them a whole lot more if ships that weren't supposed to be able to see them couldn't stumble on them

 

[tjs282]

While we're talking about subs, I would like them a whole lot more if ships that weren't supposed to be able to see them couldn't stumble on them

On that score, we now have the impressive set of C3C patches by @Flintlock

 

[Tasonne]

On that score, we now have the impressive set of C3C patches by @Flintlock

Though I don't have time to read all that right now.. I think I understand what it is basically. I believe you've probably changed my life, Sir, good day to you​