Questions on Air Units

[Predator145]

1) Do air units benefit from terrain, fortification and city defense bonuses they're on when being bombed ?

2) Do air units benefit from the radar tower bonus when attacking and defending (in both air to air combat and being bombed)?

3) Do multiple city improvements with Air Defense value intercept the bombing air unit? Let's say I have 3 improvements that have 1 Air Defense value. Does it mean each of them will have a roll at intercepting a bomber with the defense value of 8? So I could enter Attacker with 1 attack value and 3 HPs vs defender with 8 defense value and no defensive bonuses into the combat calculator?

It seems like air units targeting cities will go after the air units in there first, then ships and only then land units if it hits units instead of pop or improvements. This would make mods that have air units have higher defense values (think of Delta Strife's) turn into bombing sponges. In my mod, stealth fighters have 60 defense (Air unit stats have been quadrupled compared to land and naval units only doubled). A few of these in the city and they could absorb quite a few bombing runs by just sitting there. If they benefit from city defenses I'd have to rethink my modding approach.

4) Does the AI make use of the precision strike order now that it's been fixed by Flintlock's patch? It has been fixed, right?

 

[AnthonyBoscia]

1. Nope
2. Nope
3. I'm pretty sure it's like the land defense values, that is, the highest value is used once and any other improvements are discounted. May want to verify this.

In Storm Over Europe, air units had a similar setup as you described. Their bombard stats were low compared to air defense stats, and so simply stationing air units in cities could protect the city from bombing. Also, air units on airbases cannot be damaged, and they prevent tile improvements underneath from being destroyed as long as they are there.

 

[Predator145]

1. Nope
2. Nope
3. I'm pretty sure it's like the land defense values, that is, the highest value is used once and any other improvements are discounted. May want to verify this.

In Storm Over Europe, air units had a similar setup as you described. Their bombard stats were low compared to air defense stats, and so simply stationing air units in cities could protect the city from bombing. Also, air units on airbases cannot be damaged, and they prevent tile improvements underneath from being destroyed as long as they are there.

Do you think air superiority air unit defense stats should be 1/2, slightly less than or equal to that of their attack stats? The way Civ3 air combat works is a combination of air combat and bombing runs to destroy the enemy air force. With stock game the ratio is 2:1 atk-def and a huge stack of bombers would just overpower the fighters because interception rate is at 50%. A lucky bomber slipping past would easily take off 2-3 HPs off the fighter, leaving it easy to shoot down should air to air combat happen next. Fighters replacing their fallen comrades would have to rebase, wait a turn (2 in bugged stock game) and get bombed and then finally interception kicks in.

And of course, airfields break everything because the targeting isn't even remotely like those in cities. It's one of the most half baked implemented ideas that I've decided to remove out of all my games.

 

[AnthonyBoscia]

There are different ways to approach this but everything you are saying is correct and the defender is at a big disadvantage. Added to that, every fighter the defender builds is one less bomber they are building to counter-attack. I think increased attach for fighters and/or decreased defense for bombers is probably a good balance. You can also create a fighter unit with a bombard strategy that can act as an offensive air superiority fighter. I am still trying to calculate the best settings for my mods, but I don't think a 4:1 advantage for defending fighters is outrageous. Longer range stats helps with fighters, too. A dedicated interceptor unit could have a very long range indeed (then divided by two), to reduce rebasing needs. The nice thing about modding this game is there are many ways to tackle a game problem. For anyone else reading this who may not know, the fighter's attack stat is what it uses when it is intercepting, which may seem counter-intuitive at first.

Airfields are indeed a mess, and of course the AI doesn't even know how to build them. I do like them for my WW3 game. My very first unit was going to be a Hardened Air Shelter. It would be an air unit with high defense and sponge up enemy bombs. But once I saw how airfields worked, it wasn't even necessary.

 

[Predator145]

There are different ways to approach this but everything you are saying is correct and the defender is at a big disadvantage. Added to that, every fighter the defender builds is one less bomber they are building to counter-attack. I think increased attach for fighters and/or decreased defense for bombers is probably a good balance. You can also create a fighter unit with a bombard strategy that can act as an offensive air superiority fighter. I am still trying to calculate the best settings for my mods, but I don't think a 4:1 advantage for defending fighters is outrageous. Longer range stats helps with fighters, too. A dedicated interceptor unit could have a very long range indeed (then divided by two), to reduce rebasing needs. The nice thing about modding this game is there are many ways to tackle a game problem. For anyone else reading this who may not know, the fighter's attack stat is what it uses when it is intercepting, which may seem counter-intuitive at first.

Airfields are indeed a mess, and of course the AI doesn't even know how to build them. I do like them for my WW3 game. My very first unit was going to be a Hardened Air Shelter. It would be an air unit with high defense and sponge up enemy bombs. But once I saw how airfields worked, it wasn't even necessary.

Indeed, when it comes to "offensive" anti aircraft abilities in civ3, only the air unit's def and bombard stats count. It's offensive stats are solely defensive through the mission "intercept". All my air superiority air units have both the Air Defense and Air Bombard AI strats and have equal atk and def stats. But I guess I could incorporate an "Interceptor" class with high atk and less def and only the Air Defense AI strat. This class of aircrafts only exists for a short window in the early Modern Age and merges with the usual fighter line into the 4th gen "Air superiority Fighter". The thing is what should I name the standard fighters with equal stats since the name "Interceptor" is now taken? "SS. Jet" is given to the gen just before that with things like the F-100 already. "Jet" is given to WW2 jets and "Jet Fighter" is given to 2nd gen like the Mig-15.

I guess I could name the 3rd gen generalist fighters "Air superiority fighter" and then the 4th gens "Air superiority jet"?

Another question: How does bombing targeting work against air units stationed on carriers? Does it alternate between hitting ships and aircrafts or are air units immune?

 

[AnthonyBoscia]

As far as naming conventions go, that is going to be up to you for your purposes. 3rd-gen fighter designs came at a time when cost and versatility were priorities, so Multirole Fighter would be one option.

Air units bombing ships will only hit ships. So, it is all or nothing: sink the carriers and kill 'em all or miss them completely.

 

[Predator145]

I've done some test with Precision Strikes enabled. I was the US in the WW2 Pacific scenario. I bombed the Japanese fleet to provoke them to attack Honolulu the next turn. And sure enough, their bombers and zeros precision struck Honolulu. Not a single air unit inside the city was hit with animations on. Several improvements were destroyed and all air units were at full health. Further playing shows that the AI will use a blend of both normal and precision bombing if both are enabled.

I've come up with another legit name : "Fighter-Interceptor". These are used for fighters that are primarily used for interception but can be used for other fighter purposes in a pinch. The Gloster Javelin was often called such.

BTW, by having minus HP bonus but higher defense stats you can create air units that are resistant to being shot down by ground fire or AA city improvements but are less capable in air to air combat. For example: The "Penetrator" representing the B-1 and Tu-160 has a defense of 30 and -4HP. It has the same air to air strength as a vet def: 9 "Strategic Bomber" but has the anti ground fire and SAM resistance of a gen4 "Air superiority fighter".

 

[Ozymandias]

BTW, by having minus HP bonus but higher defense stats you can create air units that are resistant to being shot down by ground fire or AA city improvements but are less capable in air to air combat. For example: The "Penetrator" representing the B-1 and Tu-160 has a defense of 30 and -4HP. It has the same air to air strength as a vet def: 9 "Strategic Bomber" but has the anti ground fire and SAM resistance of a gen4 "Air superiority fighter".

A most excellent discovery

 

[Predator145]

I'm trying to differentiate different type of bombers. High alt. strategic bombing with dumb bombs is not very accurate against tactical ground targets and thus tactical aircrafts are needed. The strategic bomber line has the highest destructive bombard value, but only a ROF of 1. I've decided that only they get the "precision strike" enabled. And only they get the "collateral damage" flag check. The AI prefers to use the "precision strike" when attacking cities and thus the 1 ROF doesn't matter when air units and ships can't be HP sponges.

Speaking of that flag, has anyone ever destroyed multiple improvements with a single bombing run? We've all seen that screenshot from Civinator. But I've yet to experience that in any of my testing. It's as simple as checking that flag, right?

BTW, it seems like the AI has no rhyme or reason when attacking/bombarding. It doesn't seem like it would choose units with the highest attack or speed first but go at random out of the ones that are within striking distance. When it comes to bombing, it doesn't know how to use the aircrafts with the highest defense value first save those with lethal bombard for last. And thus only the human player knows how to escort his strike package.

 

[timerover51]

Speaking of that flag, has anyone ever destroyed multiple improvements with a single bombing run? We've all seen that screenshot from Civinator. But I've yet to experience that in any of my testing. It's as simple as checking that flag, right?

I have had multiple improvements destroyed with a single bombing run in some of my mods. However, I have boosted the bomber bombardment attack. I cannot say that I have seen it happen in an unmodified game.

 

[Predator145]

I have had multiple improvements destroyed with a single bombing run in some of my mods. However, I have boosted the bomber bombardment attack. I cannot say that I have seen it happen in an unmodified game.

In stock game bombers don't have the "collateral damage" flag checked so it doesn't matter how strong their bombard value is. Let's test with that flag checked and extremely high bombard value to see if we can destroy 2 improvements in a single bombing run. And I wonder if that applies to precision bombing as well.

 

[Civinator]

Speaking of that flag, has anyone ever destroyed multiple improvements with a single bombing run? We've all seen that screenshot from Civinator. But I've yet to experience that in any of my testing.

Meant is this screenshot in this post:



The most important: This screenshot is no fake, it did really happen. I have never noticed such a situation again. On the other side I used these strategic bombers in my CCM games (if these games were not finished at that time) mostly for long-range reconnaissance duties and for bombing of important resources on the map and not for eliminating buildings in an enemy city.

When looking at Civ3ConquestsEdit, one can find the following for collateral damage:

With that definition the first strike should be done against a unit - but the precision bombing does the first strike not against a unit.

Nevertheless if these bombers now can take out two buildings in one attack or only one building, I think the setting for these kind of bombers is correct for CCM. In my eyes it is much more important, that they can take out important enemy resources and seal them with a crater.

 

[timerover51]

Meant is this screenshot in this post:



The most important: This screenshot is no fake, it did really happen. I have never noticed such a situation again. On the other side I used these strategic bombers in my CCM games (if these games were not finished at that time) mostly for long-range reconnaissance duties and for bombing of important resources on the map and not for eliminating buildings in an enemy city.

When looking at Civ3ConquestsEdit, one can find the following for collateral damage:

View attachment 647285

With that definition the first strike should be done against a unit - but the precision bombing does the first strike not against a unit.

Nevertheless if these bombers now can take out two buildings in one attack or only one building, I think the setting for these kind of bombers is correct for CCM. In my eyes it is much more important, that they can take out important enemy resources and seal them with a crater.

I checked, and in my mods where this has happened, I do not have the collateral damage box checked. This happens most often in my Pacific War mods in Conquests. I have had it with both the standard bomber and the heavy bomber unit doing the attack. I will run more tests this week.

 

[Predator145]

I did some extensive testing on the WW2 Pacific Scenario as the Japanese. I jacked up the bombard value of both Zeros and Bombers to 1000 and ROF to 10. This means they hit pretty much every time. Collateral dmg flag is checked for both I then bombed the snot out of the allies. But regardless whether I hit units, improvements or pop, I never got more than extra improvement destroyed to go with it. I did that for multiple turns.

But when I gave the Nip Infantry collateral dmg flag, 1000 bombard value and 1000 attack, it pretty much destroys a city improvement every time it won a combat round. I destroyed an improvement every time I attacked a unit in a city. Didn't test versus units in the open though. But I suspect I'd have destroyed the terrain improvement underneath as well. The higher the bombard value, the more likely collateral dmg will happen. But the air units that have 1000 bombard did not score a single collateral hit while the Nip Inf does it every time.

From what I've tested I've got to conclude that like the manual said, collateral dmg applies to attacking units only. Bombardment doesn't seem to benefit from it. You gentlemen feel free to replicate my test. For now I'd have to assume that the screenshot was due to another reason. I'd love to see the editor setting for that bomber unit causing the screenshot.

 

[Civinator]

For now I'd have to assume that the screenshot was due to another reason. I'd love to see the editor setting for that bomber unit causing the screenshot.

The biq used in that screenshot done more than a decade ago in the pre-beta testing of CCM 1 is not existing any longer. But as there is no reason to change here something, I suppose that the setting here was the same as it is in the current CCM 2.50 biq.

May be here really was a glitch in the graphical presentation. The next screenshot in that game shows parts of the death animation of a unit (the white cloud). Normally in my screenshots no parts of the combat can be shown.

 

[Predator145]

If I'm not mistaken the current CCM 2.50 setting for strategic bombers is having the collateral dmg flag checked. That's all that's different from stock game (besides lethal land bombard?).

I personally think it's a glitch in graphical presentation. Having precision strike enabled with flight and only giving it to strategic bombers achieves a similar effect. But collateral dmg would be another nice option.

Edit: Welp, I was wrong. The heavy bomber just precision bombed 2 improvements. I destroyed a civil defense and a barracks. No collateral dmg flag was checked, only precision bombing. It only happened 1 time. I couldn't get it to happen again despite mass building heavy bombers as the Americans. The zeros and bombers I tested had much more bombard value at 1000 and 10 ROF. The heavy bomber only had 110 and 1 ROF.

 

[Predator145]

Is there a way to assign different air unit shoot down animation for different units? I'd like to have the regular units and flaks to have flak animation while SAM batteries and mobile SAMs have the stock game SAM animation.

 

[Civinator]

Is there a way to assign different air unit shoot down animation for different units? I'd like to have the regular units and flaks to have flak animation while SAM batteries and mobile SAMs have the stock game SAM animation.

I am not aware about such an option. The setting coming closest to this, is the combined flak/SAM animation.

 

[Predator145]

I am not aware about such an option. The setting coming closest to this, is the combined flak/SAM animation.

If no better option is available then I'd go with the pure flak route. Every industrial and beyond unit of mine has AD value. And SAM missiles exploding in the air creates a similar fragmentation blast.

 

[Predator145]

Can air units that are given the unit ability "Cruise Missile" or "Nuclear Weapon" be intercepted and shot down by ground fire? I gave the bomber unit the "Cruise Missile" ability and set interception rate to 100%. I played as the Americans in the WW2 Pacific scenario. I could never intercept the japanese bombers but could do so with the bombing zeros. When I tried to bomb with my bombers next turn none of the zero carrier interceptors stopped them but promptly intercepted my Wildcats.

Considering both of these unit abilities give make your unit use their attack animation when they bombard and the death animation as the explosion it would make air to air combat or the bombardment look really silly. But the firaxis Nuclear Bomb has a Heavy Bomber as a Run animation because that's why air units use when they bomb regardless of unit ability. So can that thing be intercepted? It has 3 defense as well, that prolly means flak can shoot it down. I haven't tested that though.