Raging Barbs in Fire

[onedreamer]

I know some have said the elves have an advantage in getting FOL because they have those 2 elven scouts. But, with two Dwarven Warriors you really have to wonder how Khazad is able to get Cartography, Mining, Mysticism, and Ways of the Earthmother with only one city and two warriors this fast!!!

In fact, Khazad and Luchuirp are the second best civs (after Ljosalfar/Svartalfar) for exploring, since both their scouts and warriors have double movement on hills.

 

[Polycrates]

I must admit, I'm absolutely loving the raging barbs in this game. Makes for a very cool and frantic early game where you're constantly fighting for dear life against massive hordes. Things like the occasional hill giant and Orthus make it even cooler.

I love the idea that this is a totally untamed and dangerous world where civilisation is going to have a really rough time of it. And I really like the idea that you're too busy up to your neck in barbarian corpses in the early game to even think about some cheesy warrior rush on your neighbouring civs.

The only problem is it seems that, for the most part, reckless expansion seems to actually be the best way to combat the barbarians, rather than a horribly risky and probably misguided idea. You've suddenly fairly permanently reclaimed a whole area from orc etc appearance without really needing to fight for it. And because the very food-rich farms make settlers (and road-building workers) effectively very cheap, it seems to promote city spam (which is exactly what the AI seems to do). And of course, sticking warriors etc on hills around your civ is a much better defense (by magically stopping barb appearance) than actually having them within your borders. I know this is a holdover from vanilla, it just doesn't seem to work as well here, and it means that barbs very soon disappear as an actual problem, unless you're unlucky enough to be near Orthus or something. I play on normal size though, so I imagine the dynamics are fairly different on larger game sizes.

I reckon the ruins and barrows are an absolutely inspired idea, though. I'd love to see them expanded to account for the majority of normal barbarians (orc camp, bear cave etc or something) so that you really do have to actually fight for the territory. I'd also love to see them all start with a defender too, maybe spawn another before starting to attack, and maybe a slower rate of new troop spawn (and less tendency to beeline for cities maybe). So you have to mount a serious barb-clearing assault to clear an area for expansion. Maybe give some reward for clearing them (like a goody hut). Some actual barb cities that exist from the start would be cool too.
So barbs stay a force for longer, are more of a hindrance to actual expansion, and you can maybe even get some of those cool carnival bonuses before they all disappear!
It would help give the early game more of a Master of Magic/HoMM sort of vibe.

For the moment though, I've found that running a pangaea map with "cold" climate is great for leaving big tundra/ice areas at the poles that continue to spawn barbs for much longer (and it fits the theme of the mod, too).

 

[Sarisin]

few notes and tricks about skeles , lizards , and orcs ...

1 - skeles and liz wont pillage .... EVER .... many times you can ignore them and improve on the other side of the city

2 - typically skeles and liz will attack a lone warrior or a pair of warriors. find a forested hill just a ways out and fortify .... this makes your warrior a 4 and he will level nicely on these guys.

3 - its only the orcs that will walk around you to hit a city or pillage. fortunately they have a move of 1 and if you can place a defender in a forest close he can attack when the orc has no defensive bonus.

4 - if your having issueswith orcs or lizardmen , use the orc slaying promo , it effects both.

5 - a hunter with combat 2 and forest defence is elligible for forest stealth. this is a very strong promo as he cant be killed in forests (normally).

6 - iirc , forest defense applies to attack also

basicallly it comes down to knowing your enemy and using the terrain.

Well said with your last comment daladinn!

1 - Yes, the Lizardmen and Skeletons will not pillage, but they will pick of workers building the improvements. That's what I mean about them being a nuisance. Also, it is not uncommon (although I don't think it is an AI strategy) to have an Orc Spearman or 2 in a stack with Lizardmen and Skeletons that WILL pillage. In raging barb games mixed stacks like this are common.

4 - I always used to go for that Orcish promotion right after Combat I. However, that can hurt you when another non-Orc civ declares war on you. Having Combat II, for example, would help you against, say, a Malakhim Warrior instead of having Orcish.

5 - It's the same with Stealth for a Hunter. With a limit of 100 XP (not Raider and fighting barbs), you have to decide if Stealth is better than something like Shock when you are getting hit by bunches of Orc Axemen.

The terrain certainly can be your good friend in this game!

 

[Sarisin]

In fact, Khazad and Luchuirp are the second best civs (after Ljosalfar/Svartalfar) for exploring, since both their scouts and warriors have double movement on hills.

Yes, I see that movement pt bonus can help, but...

Do you really send your Warriors out exploring?

I used to, but I got so tired of getting those hostile goodie hut reactions and having Skeletons attack my city, that now I keep them at home or use them to defend in my second city.

I really use my Scout now exclusively. That's one reason I liked Mobility 1 and 2 in Exploration. Also, I just love it when I can get a second Scout from a goodie hut.

I really think the AI might be sending out both early units to explore as I have seen at least one AI civ get eliminated very early.

In Epic and Marathon games it can take awhile to get that 1st Warrior built.

 

[Sarisin]

I love the idea that this is a totally untamed and dangerous world where civilisation is going to have a really rough time of it. And I really like the idea that you're too busy up to your neck in barbarian corpses in the early game to even think about some cheesy warrior rush on your neighbouring civs.

The only problem is it seems that, for the most part, reckless expansion seems to actually be the best way to combat the barbarians, rather than a horribly risky and probably misguided idea. You've suddenly fairly permanently reclaimed a whole area from orc etc appearance without really needing to fight for it. And because the very food-rich farms make settlers (and road-building workers) effectively very cheap, it seems to promote city spam (which is exactly what the AI seems to do). And of course, sticking warriors etc on hills around your civ is a much better defense (by magically stopping barb appearance) than actually having them within your borders. I know this is a holdover from vanilla, it just doesn't seem to work as well here, and it means that barbs very soon disappear as an actual problem, unless you're unlucky enough to be near Orthus or something. I play on normal size though, so I imagine the dynamics are fairly different on larger game sizes.

I reckon the ruins and barrows are an absolutely inspired idea, though. I'd love to see them expanded to account for the majority of normal barbarians (orc camp, bear cave etc or something) so that you really do have to actually fight for the territory. I'd also love to see them all start with a defender too, maybe spawn another before starting to attack, and maybe a slower rate of new troop spawn (and less tendency to beeline for cities maybe). So you have to mount a serious barb-clearing assault to clear an area for expansion. Maybe give some reward for clearing them (like a goody hut). Some actual barb cities that exist from the start would be cool too.
So barbs stay a force for longer, are more of a hindrance to actual expansion, and you can maybe even get some of those cool carnival bonuses before they all disappear!
It would help give the early game more of a Master of Magic/HoMM sort of vibe.

For the moment though, I've found that running a pangaea map with "cold" climate is great for leaving big tundra/ice areas at the poles that continue to spawn barbs for much longer (and it fits the theme of the mod, too).

Some very interesting observations!

I agree that in raging barb games you really do not focus much on declaring war on your neighbor or any of the AI civs as you are busy with the barbs. Likewise, having many barbs a-ragin' keeps the warlike AI civs somewhat at bay - although some like Svartlafar still come calling.

I think the 'reckless expansion' strategy in raging barb games is a crapshoot. If you don't get picked on in the early going (I always get picked on), you can expand. And, it is great if you can grow to the borders of another civ, particularly one with the BAR trait.

However, when the barbs come in numbers, your one Warrior defense will not stand and you will suffer. But, often, I have seen the barbs leave after destroying one of your cities and go looking for someone else. Time to expand again???

Well, you do get barb cities sprouting up like weeds. Those are a nuisance, especially when roads magically appear connecting them. Acheron's city can be an especially difficult nut to crack for awhile.

My only problem with the barrows/ruins is that there are too many of them in some games and they are defended too quickly.

 

[Sarisin]

I figured out a way to drive the AI raging barbs whacky in my current game.

Through, um, careful planning and some dumb luck I managed to create three choke points on my civ's borders.

I have enough units (plenty of blooded werewolves) to man the choke points, so I am just loving messing around with those bad barbs.

First, I would open a choke point by just moving one unit. The barbs would move towards that open choke point. The terrain is harsh enough that it takes some time to approach my defenders.

Just before the group of barbs (and I am talking a number of stacks, one of which has so many barbs it is truncated in the display), I move the single unit back to the tile to close the choke point. The barbs turn around and then head to my second choke point where I have moved another unit.

It was fun playing raging barb ping pong.

When I closed all three choke points, the mob moved on to pound other AI civs, but that was not so much fun.

If you can get the chokepoints, even using a single unit to block the way (silly when you have a huge stack of barbs) you can send the barb gang packing.

 

[ThomAnder]

I figured out a way to drive the AI raging barbs whacky in my current game.

Through, um, careful planning and some dumb luck I managed to create three choke points on my civ's borders.

I have enough units (plenty of blooded werewolves) to man the choke points, so I am just loving messing around with those bad barbs.

First, I would open a choke point by just moving one unit. The barbs would move towards that open choke point. The terrain is harsh enough that it takes some time to approach my defenders.

Just before the group of barbs (and I am talking a number of stacks, one of which has so many barbs it is truncated in the display), I move the single unit back to the tile to close the choke point. The barbs turn around and then head to my second choke point where I have moved another unit.

It was fun playing raging barb ping pong.

When I closed all three choke points, the mob moved on to pound other AI civs, but that was not so much fun.

If you can get the chokepoints, even using a single unit to block the way (silly when you have a huge stack of barbs) you can send the barb gang packing.

I think i read about that in some recent succession game, the computer is coded to attack only if there is a route to your city, if not then they won't attack. That would explain why they left for the other civs when you closed the choke.

 

[Sarisin]

I think i read about that in some recent succession game, the computer is coded to attack only if there is a route to your city, if not then they won't attack. That would explain why they left for the other civs when you closed the choke.

You're probably right, but there were other, more out of the way, routes to the city.

I had about 30 barbs hung up going back and forth for a lot of turns. Finally, I thought this was boring and I just closed the choke point and let them move on.

Of course, this did mean that later I had beaucoup barbs show up elsewhere, but again, I was able to use the choke point strategy on those too.

 

[Nimai_R]

Evil, Evil, Barbs. I think I'm going to start playing normal speed again though, as much as I love epic, I don't have time for it so I never finish my games ; ; =P

But anyways. See, it's all fine and dandy IF you get up that far, but a lot of the times you get raped within say, the first 20 turns? Maybe even less because sometimes I don't get a 2nd warrior before a skeleton knocks on the door going I don't like you so die. =( Any luck with barbs and such Sarisin Wonder if they could impliment it where if you play on harder difficulties you get added units.

I think raging barbs is also far to fun to turn off, it adds so much more flavor and greatness to the game. It's like every city has to pass the "barb" survival test to be allowed into the game =P -sees Orthus dressed up as the guy from Saw- Wanna play a game? I call it, BARBARIANS SLAUGHTER YOU! >.> anyways..

The choke thing is interesting, wondering just how to execute it. I need to find right off the bat strats though, like when you still have your first one or two cities.

 

[vorshlumpf]

I recently started a new game. However, I changed all of the handicap numbers so that nobody got any bonuses against barbs or animals (you should check out those bonuses some time!).

I always play with raging barbs and was looking for a nasty game. Nope. They were quite disappointing, again. The only difference I've seen is that at turn 400+ there are still two bears running around (each with Combat IV, Woodsman I, and Guerrilla I). Then again, I am on a Terra map and no one has made it over to the New World yet

I'm disappointed that I never see the mega stacks that others report. I'm assuming it's because I always max out the number of Civs in each of my games. Maybe I should have a duel with Charadon on a huge Fantasy map . . .

- Niilo

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Terra maps are designed small and crowded in the old world. Try maybe pangea with heigh waterlevel, or increase size and take out a couple AI's at the set-up, that oughta do it.

 

[vorshlumpf]

My worst time with Barbs was in Fantasy maps, since those don't have oceans. Even with maxed out Civs (usually 3-6 of them are gone before too long). Even then I didn't get stacks, though, and rarely got blown out of any game early (it did happen a few times - usually when I was stupid and didn't think about defence from Year 1).

By the way, I got to see the New World last night. Since I upped the barbarian unit and city appearance ratio, it is chock full of black. It's going to be fun trying to crack that nut.

Skeletons sure are prevalent now with those barrows. The barbarians are lucky they have an 'understanding' with the undead

- Niilo

 

[cvlowe]

By the way, I got to see the New World last night. Since I upped the barbarian unit and city appearance ratio, it is chock full of black. It's going to be fun trying to crack that nut.

- Niilo

Build the Baron and send him with a healer. Tons 'o werewolves

 

[vorshlumpf]

Most of them are skeletons. I'm assuming they don't get converted to werewolves.

I'm playing the Grigori, and my first hero, Branding, is a hunter. He's slowly exploring the new land. Very slowly (move to wooded hill, defend, heal, attack adjacent stacks, heal, defend, heal, move to next wooded hill). I'm not taking any chances with him (at least, not below 99.9&#37.

- Niilo

 

[Nimai_R]

Well... I think this speaks volumes, maybe otrhers might wanna share. =P Btw this is on NOBLE not even harder ones lmao, I'm not upping until I Can get a good game -.-

-Kills-
Goblins: 267
Orc Spearman: 294
Lizardman: 145
Orc Axeman: 72

Oh, and I that's also because I was lucky and quickly destroyed my 2 burrows on my continent.

By the way, if you want barb problems. Start your civ near the poles >.> I guarantee you you'll have tons of fun <.< Need a lot of rangers with Sentry =P

Love to see your totals Sarisin hehe

 

[vorshlumpf]

I took over my first city in the New World, the city where Acheron resided. I actually had to abandon it because all of the scores of skeletons on the continent immediately headed for my one city and I didn't have enough defensive units - and I certainly didn't want to lose two of my adventurers.

Spoiler :

Those large stacks have over 20 skeletons each.

- Niilo

 

[onedreamer]

Yes, I see that movement pt bonus can help, but...

Do you really send your Warriors out exploring?

Well, yes of course I do. But I don't pick up goody huts near the capital for the risk of hostiles. But those moderately away are ok. First I produce a scout who will take the nearby huts and then fight animals (and hopefully capture some). Then I make more warriors that will defend the capital.
In multiplayer you can't be so "daring" though

 

[onedreamer]

-Kills-
Goblins: 267
Orc Spearman: 294
Lizardman: 145
Orc Axeman: 72

That's not much compared to a game I played I think in 0.16 or 0.20 with Elhoim: I was kinda at the center of the map and Orthus spawned quite away but decided to raze exactly me (this I found out later... initially I didn't know it, of course). Well, since when he spawned, ALL darn barbarians in the world were heading straight to my capital !! One turn I defended from a stack of 14 goblins in one city. I don't think I would have survived that initial stage if not for the Elhoim defense bonus. The rest of the game was hard though because fighting back the hordes of barbarians seriously hindered my expansion.

 

[Nimai_R]

Oh sorry, shoulda specified that was only on my continent, not going to new worlds or barbarian horded areas.

@Dreamer: Hehe that sounds pretty crazy >< -taps side of head- Those barbarians are crazy, I think 70% of this game is just fighting Barbarians, the other 30% is the actual civs

@Vorsh: Now that's just disgusting lol, reminds me of the time I had a ruin on an island spawning lizardmen that couldn't go anywhere

 

[MagisterCultuum]

You should always have a powerful caster with you when trying to conquer a raging barbarian continent. I prefer Spell Extension I and II Air III Archmages. Skeleton spams cannot survive Maelstroms from 4 tiles away. Of course, you are probably trying to take this territory before these are available.