Random Thoughts 3: A Little Bit of This, and a Little Bit of That...

[Mouthwash]

By definition Conservatives are opposed to change. How does that make them more decent?

Because not all change leads towards more decency? I'm talking about the conservative movement that William Buckley founded, can't speak for others.

Liberals build their whole identity on being noble crusaders. So if others don't agree with them, for instance by believing that unborn humans should not be killed at the convenience of the mother, the only possible explanation is that they just hate women and want to control their bodies. That's why liberals trying to empathize with the other side try to frame them as 'decent, but misguided.'

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Apparently the use of any sort of generality puts someone on Donald Trump's level. Learned something today!

this post reads like a trump tweet .

Culture has been around for as long as humans have been a species. Elites haven't.

Maybe if you strictly define "elites" as moneyed, noble, royal, theocratic, or elite warrior classes, you'd be correct. But, humans are, by nature, a species of hierarchy, competition, greed, structure, intraspecies violence, vengeful tendencies, and territoriality by our base nature. There's ALWAYS been "elites," even if they're not always so blatant, overt, and clear-cut as the archetypes I stated above.

I'm afraid but in this case I think MW is right. However, I do have something else to say about "tradition". What does tradition mean? Tradition is essentialy the passing on of rites, patterns of behavior, norms, ideas, "habitus", if you will. What is this, if not just culture? When we say culture we are referring to exactly that: Those specifics of what we do and think that differentiate us. Tradition is merely a mechanism for (passing on) the actual thing-in-itself, which is specific behavior and thought. However, tradition has been kidnapped, used by conservatives to represent something of inherent value. Traditions are important precisely because they've been around for long. That is, of course, absolutely idiotic. Tradition has entered the culture war and it's been claimed by one party, which has gotten it somewhat of a bad rep.

On the other hand, many leftists love tradition, in a different way. A restaurant that still cooks the same way they did 100 years ago. 100 sjw points. An indigenous tribe that is refuting to adapt to a modern lifestyle. 1,000,000 sjw points. We cannot see culture for what it is, because then we would truly have to admit that there is not and never has been value in tradition, it's the acts and thoughts that count, that are to be discussed, critisized, praised, continued. Or, to really simplify the last few sentences: Tradition is nice and all if your great grandmother was a master baker, but what if she could barely tell salt and sugar apart and her recipes just suck? Do we stick with it because "muh tradition" or do we realize the arbitrarity (is this a word) of celebrating things simply because they've been popular with our ancestors?

 

[brennan]

I'm talking about the conservative movement that William Buckley founded, can't speak for others.

Terrible noise those goalposts make when moved you know...

Because not all change leads towards more decency?

Liberals build their whole identity on being noble crusaders.

It would be trivial to draw similar generalisations about conservatives, and just as trite.

 

[Takhisis]

conservatives are inherently more decent and thus more aware of how corrupting politics is.
(…)
fields like history, if it is backed up by physical evidence

My sensors detect contradiction.

 

[Mouthwash]

this post reads like a trump tweet .

Okay, it kind of does.

What does tradition mean? Tradition is essentialy the passing on of rites, patterns of behavior, norms, ideas, "habitus", if you will. What is this, if not just culture? When we say culture we are referring to exactly that: Those specifics of what we do and think that differentiate us. Tradition is merely a mechanism for (passing on) the actual thing-in-itself, which is specific behavior and thought.

How do you know that? I mean yes, that is an important function of culture, but how do you know it's only the state of mind or habits that matter?

It seem hard for me to reconcile that with cultures being so diverse. You'd think they would all drift towards a particular set of effective traditions.

However, tradition has been kidnapped, used by conservatives to represent something of inherent value.

Are you seriously claiming that no one except modern-day conservatives think this? Do you know how much has been written by my own people on how growing payot affects the spiritual world?

Traditions are important precisely because they've been around for long. That is, of course, absolutely idiotic.

...what?

Tradition has entered the culture war and it's been claimed by one party, which has gotten it somewhat of a bad rep.

Among the people who want to destroy it, yes.

On the other hand, many leftists love tradition, in a different way. A restaurant that still cooks the same way they did 100 years ago. 100 sjw points. An indigenous tribe that is refuting to adapt to a modern lifestyle. 1,000,000 sjw points.

Leftists are supportive of the frills of culture, like skin color, cooking and clothing, creation myths, etc. When it comes to important things like human interactions or sexual characteristics, they want to grind everything up into JS Mill-style individualism as quickly as possible (they justify holding these two positions by saying things like 'women's/gay rights are universal ethics, we're only opposing bigotry').

Tradition is nice and all if your great grandmother was a master baker, but what if she could barely tell salt and sugar apart and her recipes just suck? Do we stick with it because "muh tradition" or do we realize the arbitrarity (is this a word) of celebrating things simply because they've been popular with our ancestors?

Chances are an old tradition would produce fantastic and healthier recipes. That's how tradition works: the good ones survive.

Terrible noise those goalposts make when moved you know...

Dachs was talking about, let me see, "popular modern right-wing media personalities". But since it seems below you to check such things, I humbly concede to your greater understanding of what I really meant.

My sensors detect contradiction.

I suspect they're busted or never functioned properly at all.

 

[Patine]

That's because conservatives are inherently more decent and thus more aware of how corrupting politics is.

Incredible, a second example of "political Manicaeism" from you again not a whole day later after I pointed out the first example.

 

[Mouthwash]

Incredible, a second example of "political Manicaeism" from you again not a whole day later after I pointed out the first example.

I'm speaking in generalities, as Dachs was (but I don't see you mentioning him here).

 

[Patine]

Because not all change leads towards more decency? I'm talking about the conservative movement that William Buckley founded, can't speak for others.

Liberals build their whole identity on being noble crusaders. So if others don't agree with them, for instance by believing that unborn humans should not be killed at the convenience of the mother, the only possible explanation is that they just hate women and want to control their bodies. That's why liberals trying to empathize with the other side try to frame them as 'decent, but misguided.'

Leftists are supportive of the frills of culture, like skin color, cooking and clothing, creation myths, etc. When it comes to important things like human interactions or sexual characteristics, they want to grind everything up into JS Mill-style individualism as quickly as possible (they justify holding these two positions by saying things like 'women's/gay rights are universal ethics, we're only opposing bigotry').

And more political Manichaeism. I don't know how people can believe this stuff with any sincerity or say it with a straight face. At least people with any education and capacity for rational, intelligent, sober thinking.

 

[Traitorfish]

That's because conservatives are inherently more decent

I mean, you heard about the whole Kavanagh thing, right?

You know, I think it's come to the point in the political debate where I've come, more and more, to admire a lesser-known, rarely-quoted quote by Benjamin Franklin he said VERY late in life - only a few years before his death in 1790 - in response to where he stood politically as the foundations of the First Party System were being laid amongst the U.S. Founding Fathers.

"I am a radical centrist, and anyone to the left or right of me should be castrated,"

Do you think maybe it's rarely-quoted because it's a mis-remembered line from the the 2008 HBO miniseries John Adams?

It's like how "party hard, guys" is not a little-known Abraham Lincoln quote.

Leftists are supportive of the frills of culture, like skin color, cooking and clothing, creation myths, etc. When it comes to important things like human interactions or sexual characteristics, they want to grind everything up into JS Mill-style individualism as quickly as possible (they justify holding these two positions by saying things like 'women's/gay rights are universal ethics, we're only opposing bigotry').

Thing is, you're not wrong. But what alternatives to this do conservative offers? Backwards-looking legislation offers the trappings of "traditional" community, but cannot actually substitute it.

 

[Patine]

And more political Manichaeism. I don't know how people can believe this stuff with any sincerity or say it with a straight face. At least people with any education and capacity for rational, intelligent, sober thinking.

His posts, while having generalizations, presumptions, stereotypes, and flaws too, yes, were not stated in a "Manichaeist" manner, just inserting "right" and "left' or "conservative" and "liberal" in lieu of "light" and "darkness." That's what I was pointing out in your particular posts there (a sentiment in political spheres that's certainly not unique to you, and rising in commonality, but that doesn't make it any more productive, rational, thoughtful, verifiable, or anything but destructive and ruinous to society and, might I reiterate, stupid.

 

[Patine]

I mean, you heard about the whole Kavanagh thing, right?

If he's the absolute LEAST decent conservative you can find, you aren't looking very hard at all.

 

[brennan]

since it seems below you to check such things, I humbly concede to your greater understanding of what I really meant.

Come now, i'm perfectly willing to concede if i've misinterpreted someone.

That's how tradition works: the good ones survive.

FGM?

 

[Mouthwash]

And more political Manichaeism. I don't know how people can believe this stuff with any sincerity or say it with a straight face. At least people with any education and capacity for rational, intelligent, sober thinking.

90% of political commentators on CFC: conservatives are disgusting, unethical, privileged, hateful liars!

One guy: liberals are not the paragons of virtue they think they are.

I mean, you heard about the whole Kavanagh thing, right?

I don't know, dredging up someone's high school partying to deny them a judicial appointment decades later, smearing him as a gang rapist, calling for elected officials to be harassed, and labeling Senator Collins a rape apologist doesn't seem very decent to me. At least Bill Clinton was an actual pervert.

FGM?

That's a consequence of the need to control women in polygamous societies. Polygamy is biologically rooted in humans. Even so, some cultures managed to overthrow it.

 

[metatron]

By definition Conservatives are opposed to change. How does that make them more decent? Brezhnev was a Conservative for example, as were the Spanish Inquisition.

First do no harm?

Of course that's not what they do. They change all manner of things and they do all sorts of harm.
But in theory that would be the principle.
This principle can and should be contested, say, by correctly stating that the status quo is in some way derived from "human nature" and that this nature sucks balls and has to be reformed.
Currently this is usually impeded by "feminists" and other assorted "liberals" who like to claim that nature doesn't exist and consequently mess up this very clear path towards progress and replace it some sort of intellectual potemkinish failure.

 

[Patine]

90% of political commentators on CFC: conservatives are disgusting, unethical, dishonest, privileged, hateful liars!

One guy: liberals are not the paragons of virtue they think they are.

Actually, I consider myself neither a conservative nor a liberal, nor any other political "pop label in the zeitgeist." I believe partisan loyalty and ideological purity are also elements destroying society and the world, piece by piece, as well, especially as more inflexible, uncompromising leaders on all sides draw their battle lines like WWI trenches, and use such stereotypes, lies, revised history, spinning the news like a top, and dirty political tactics - of which ALL current political factions who have any power or cache at all are all using ruthlessly, not just some, and they're leadership and ideologues are all pre-dominated by corrupt scumbags. I see this a bit clearer than many, because I don't sheepishly take a political side to blind me to one part of the "equation of evil," if you will, by giving that part a pass on many things due to partisan loyalty.

 

[Mouthwash]

But the biggest elitists of all are those horrible centrists...

 

[Patine]

But the biggest elitists of all are those horrible centrists...

I think you're confusing the term "Mainstream Establishment," which is a favourite target designation of the Sanders crowd, the Tea Party, and Trump's faction, and the Euro-sceptics and far-right nationalists in Europe, who, nonetheless, do have a definite peggable ideological stance between liberalism and conservativism (and even social democracy) with the REAL centrists, whom you rarely TRULY hear much about nowadays.

 

[Mouthwash]

No, I mean people who think they're better than the other two sides because they're 'independent' thinkers and whatnot.

 

[brennan]

90% of political commentators on CFC: conservatives are disgusting, unethical, dishonest, privileged, hateful liars!

One guy: liberals are not the paragons of virtue they think they are.

CFC is a lot more nuanced than that, even with the traffic as low as it is these days.

I don't know, dredging up someone's high school partying to deny them a judicial appointment decades later, smearing him as a gang rapist, calling for elected officials to be harassed, and labeling Senator Collins a rape apologist doesn't seem very decent to me. At least Bill Clinton was an actual rapist.

I'm gonna leave the unedited version of your post and invite you to prove the claim.

That's a consequence of the need to control women in polygamous societies.

It's a disgusting traditional practice and it's survived for centuries, maybe millennia. By the criteria you stated that makes it good.

 

[Traitorfish]

I don't know, dredging up someone's high school partying to deny them a judicial appointment decades later, smearing him as a gang rapist, calling for elected officials to be harassed, and labeling Senator Collins a rape apologist doesn't seem very decent to me. At least Bill Clinton was an actual pervert.

Case in point.