Realism Invictus

[Timothyy]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. It helped me understand that we evaluate strength of RI nations a bit differently, which is why we fundamentally disagree on China (as well as America and Celts, for example). I'll expand on that in the end but firstly want to address your other points (sorry for the long post ahead):
- "who use them in that situation anyway?" - me . But okay, to be serious - I agree, in most cases you don't want to use generic 5+25%(Att) axemen in city defense. Because that's impractical. But the Northern Chinese axeman is not generic! They effectively get 5+25%(Def) without any perks (since the primary city offender of that time is Melee, and they have 10% vs Melee). That is comparable with 4+50%(Def) of bowmen, and you get them 2-3 techs earlier! Also, these axemen have better chances against civs with some of the 5 strength Melee UUs - or vs axemen generally, including roman legionaries.
And the key thing I forgot to mention in previous reply is their ability to counter-attack. Meaning: A)if Chinese defends with just bowmen - they're good on defense but they can't use bowmen for counter-attacking the opponent; they need some time/resources to build an offensive B)if Chinese defends with bowmen+axemen – they can almost momentarily pick healed axemen for retaliation wave. Ultimately, that way you're saving a bit of production/time (for example, bulding 2 bowmen + 2 axemen instead of 4 bowmen)

- "spearman itself is odd unit. ... skimisher will defense your unit" - I generally agree, though I think you underestimate the power of early rush with spears. It works with most nations (just timely build 1-2 spears for protection/clearup and a bunch of freshmeat shortswords) but obviously better with Agg/Conq leaders, Persia and civs with strong spears/shortswords. Since Chinese spears are good and they have both Agg and Conq leaders, they are well suited for this. Better than, say, non-Conq Mongolian/Zulu/Russian/Polish/etc. (if I remember their bonuses correctly)
As for defense - what about stacks 10+ units high? You can build 10-15 skirmishers and 0 spears, sure. But I find it impractical since skirmishers are meh for any city warfare, while spears can be used there (as a last defender/clearup unit). So I'd say it is better to fortify your stack and use 4-6 skirmishers and cavalry units for attacks every couple of turns. And Chinese Spears are very useful when fortifying (and in City Defense, too)

P.S. just a note on defense as Chinese - they also have slightly stronger 3s Archers, weaker but present Horse Archers, and defensive 6s swords, right? I'd say that paints itself as an easier Classical defense in general. If you use combinations of Chinese units (archer, spear, axeman, horse archer, sword, recon/cavalry) right, you have a chance at defending from anybody pre-Medieval, including Celts/Greeks/Romans/Hindi/etc. And there are some production-saving capabilities for counter-attack as well, even if more difficult due to attacking stats

- on Chinese UUs in general - I agree, UUs should feel game-changing. The only counterpoint I have is that not every UU in this mod is busted. British Royal Marines is one of a kind that comes to mind - extremely powerful in its era, obliterating anything except some cavalry/recon UUs of its era (and those pose a threat only outside cities, useless on defense). But not every UU is like that, aren't they? Many are either situationally useful or simply underwhelming (like Northern Chinese). I wouldn't say Japanese Wako projects the same kind of power as Marines in its era, for example (and Wako is one of the stronger UUs)
But yeah, I'd definitely appreciate small buffs of all "weaker" UUs, including Northern Chinese.
P.S. City Defense Grenadiers are a meme, for sure but even that may become useful - when just captured a city and there's enemy army nearby, for example

- And the last one is a point about Courthouse and weaker/stronger civs in general. I consider economy bonuses in RI much more valuable than warfare ones (generally - unless war bonus resembles Royal Marines, Sreni Pattiyodaha, Jaguar or smth like that). And that's why I think Chinese is not the weakest civ. Their Pagan Temples and Courthouses make them "pass the test" for me. I totally disagree with a point that Great Library and Cheomseongdae are "required" for their courthouses to be useful. These Wonders are valuable, appreciated, desired - but not required. If anything, food and happiness resources are much more of a deal breaker if you want to use a bunch of specialists in all your cities. But the nice thing is that combo of Chinese paganism + courthouse boosts the existing growth, so that's partially resolved. And Chinese Courthouses work THROUGHOUT the game, compared to, say, Berber Baths or Roman Barracks. That's something
P.S. Canals can be useful in early game, too. A saver of a weaker-production spot. Not a lot of civs have that in their pocket

As for the Celts and Americans mentioned in the beginning of the post, I value them opposite to you. Meaning - I think Celts are kinda OP due to early&powerful UI, early&powerful UU + army compared to German/English roster. While Americans (for me personally) are one of the weaker nations due to majority of the bonuses being lategame-ish. Except some Nordic units and occasional Ranches, I guess. Other "weaker" ones... Well, it depends on the leaders, too But generally, nations alone - German, French and Ethiopians all seem weak to me (exclusively due to their early game - I know they can & do bloom later). Berbers have early game bonuses but not for long (all Pagan temples get obsolete, & their UB is short-lived and only moderately impactful), so maybe them too. Something like that

-axeman: they are comparable in str with bowman but why bowman always preferred cause bowman have first strike and can promote city defense. That nice to have axeman defense your city but I would much more happier if my axeman can do better job at attack the city instead of defense it. City defense are just meant to hold long enough until your recon or cavalry arrive, AI in RI is not suiciding attack your city unless it have really high change capture it, sometime the trick is leave your city not too strong to bait enemies attack and you send your reinforcements wipe out enemies stack next turn.

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-spearman: I do not denied the usefulness of spearman, I denied the usefulness of chinese spearman. They have 25% bonus defense against warband and axeman. In city defense they are not strong as chinese axeman, in open field, I already said the reason. In city attackl, all spearmans are same.

-their archer, I would not say they really stronger, they are weakest among asian civ, japan, mongol, korea and egypt,.. although those have less 10% bonus city defense but they have more first strike than china. First strike is much more value than tiny 10%. Chinese archer only stronger than the civ that can beat you to death with their melee troops
(Why everything in china weaker than all other asian counterpart? I asking a real question? So unrealistic)

But after all, have in-capturable city does not win me a game, enemies still able pillage my improvement, I need to fight back and expand.

And AI rarely attack you in classical era either, unless it is small cramped map. Classical era is about capture some nearby barbarian city, china don't have unit for that, it will cost them a lot, barbarian city have a lot of archer.

-Sure, after all everything is useful, problem is how I can capture a city with suck meme unit. Disband them is a waste, but upgrade them is costly and not worth.
-Problem with china is they hardly to expand so they won't have many luxury resource. If they turtling they need those wonders. If they try to expand, it will cost them deadly cause their offensive unit are weak, need more units to do the work and need repace them more often. They can't turtling forever because they have nothing carry the game later.
Canal is 2 hammer, a hill with forest give same bonus. And I don't want a bad city if I play china, they are very hard to expand, bad city will tank science and economies.
Suck a dilemma civ.

-economy bonuses surely are nice but it less matter when you facing higher difficult, no matter how good your economies bonus, you will never outrun AI economies. But you can slow them down, with sword and gun. Have good warfare mean you need less unit to do the job, mean less maintain, less loss mean less you have rebuild, war less costly,it bring much better economies than any economies bonus you could think, and it make your enemies economies shinks cause they have spend their hammer to war instead of just sitting there and spend all to science or gold.


-Hmm. I just look back, celt certaintly look really OP, both their non-unique and unique unit are strong. I thought their UI replace windmill but turnout they are fort, which is pretty OP. Just very lacking late game power, if I managed build up good lead early game, I can win a game.
America is OP cause their UI can make them early powerhouse with few nearby cattles, they can just play tall (or wide their early unit no weak either) until unlock flintlock firearm, not even need sulfur cause their minute man don't need resource. At that point, they can easily bulldoze their neighboring, steal their tech and vassal them. Their power then just go up.
Germany is not weak by anymean. They have +25% melee attack warband, their axeman +25 city attack +10 att archer, their military are one of strongest in the game, make slaughter stock early barbarian, spearman +40% archer which is ridiculous, you upgrade veteran military earlier to spearman, they will melt archer like butter. They are lack of early economies but they become dominating force later .
French strong. Their UI is bonus happy, which is really strong if their starting location have it, their early units are no weak. Axeman 25% city attack and 10 att archer like german, very strong, levy 25% bonus melee and charge horse, strong too, they can safely and easily hit gunpowder era and keep gaining power and dominating. Nothing weaker than china.
I not played Ethiopian yet, but they have UI increase happy like france, early plantation, UB look strong too, unit, UU are no weak either, their hussar is only hussar that have bonus against gunpowder unit, very nice, less worry about dooms stack of line infantry mid game, their UU oromo warrior look very strong, bonus city attack, bonus hill, drill 2 and drill 3, they can potential taking a city without a scratch . It is civ that depended on starting location, maybe mid but no weakling like Chinese, I will try test it sometime.

 

[Dathur the Sick]

We surely play this mod differently. I think I can learn some of the things you mentioned (like baiting AI, for example) - maybe that will help me with Titan/Deity. Meanwhile, I'll share my perspective on what you said (i.e., how that applies to how I play):

- "AI in RI is not suiciding attack your city unless it have really high change capture it" - the thing is - in my experience, that can happen rather OFTEN If you do not prepare enough defenses, of course. Meaning: while 2 bowmen in the city are usually enough (and Chinese can swap that with bowman+axeman), sometimes you need more (like 3-4 bowmen or 2 bowmen and 1-2 axemen). If we're talking higher difficulties, AI there can still do doomstacks, true. And almost any Classical era doomstack can take on 2 unpromoted bowmen no problem. So that's why I think this Chinese bonus translates better on higher difficulties (though admittedly I mostly played Chinese on Monarch)
P.S. in RI you can promote melee units to City Defense if you really need to

- "In city defense they are not strong as chinese axeman" - whilst true, I find this reference a bit confusing. Previously you said that Chinese axeman is not that useful because sometimes you need a weaker defender, right? Well, this spear certainly fits the criteria - stronger than a warband, weaker (and cheaper!) than an axeman or bowman. To add to that, I find that 1 spear per city (of any nation) is viable strategy if AI makes horses. Meaning: of course horses die either way, but without spearmen they will face archer/melee/what have you, and that usually leads to higher odds AND higher damage (compared to cities which have a single spear that faces any cavalry offender firsthand). Ultimately, that translates to something like 3.8-4(out of 4) bowman instead of 3-3.6(out of 4) bowman (per each cavalry attack). So yeah, ANY spear may be used in city defense - but Chinese and, say, Egyptian one are better at that (because they can take out non-cavalry attackers more consistently).
And I will repeat my views on plain defense with spears, just in case you missed it. I find it impractical to build 10+ skirmishers/10+ horsemen/etc. to face any doomstack of that era – much better to use 4-6 of these and fortify your stacks (to make skirmishers/etc. less vulnerable to Melee/Archer/etc. counter-attacks). And Chinese spear is great for that - it can kill cavalry (that easilly kills skirms), it can kill archery & weak melee units (that are alright at killing at 4s skirms), etc. It is more of pre-bronze bonus but it still exists.

- "only stronger than the civ that can beat you to death with their melee troops" - there are a lot of those, though. Celts, German, Greek, Roman, English, Carthaginian, Nguni, Norse - and that's off the top of my mind. Also every Aggressive/Conqueror leader in the game. I thinks vs all of these 10% bonus is more valuable than FS. But sure, FS isn't nothing when you are already more powerful than your opponent

- "in-capturable city does not win me a game" - true, it only helps you survive on higher difficulties. Just in case, I'll repeat that I don't find Northern China OP or anything. Mid civ at their best, kinda weak at their worst. Surely Hindi, Roman, South China, etc. are much better. But the notion they are "the weakest civ" seems ridiculous to me while smth like America or Germany is in the game. More on that later

- "Classical era is about capture some nearby barbarian city" - that's something I disagree with wholeheartedly. In my opinion, you can (and should) do a lot of expansion in Classical. When necessary - through conquest, when not - through settling. The Chinese courthouse helps them with either, leader traits are well suited, too. As for Barbarian cities - well, they are always easier preventable than dealt with. Fog busting is still a thing in RI. So if a player let Barbarian settle a valuable land nearby, it's mostly on the player (again - in my opinion).

- "bad city will tank science and economies." - I think that's true of ANY civ. You always prefer better cities, sure. But what do you do if you don't have that? (Say, you spawned in tundra or desert). Germany and American and many others can just give up their game entirely at that point, because they can't boost weaker production spot and they don't have enough eco bonuses to justify early expansion in all directions.
Chinese on the other hand can do both. They will usually suffer in later eras, true. And Germany/America may try to survive until better times when their bonuses kick in - also true. But in early game China will always prevail over Germany/America - and in my experience, that is true of AI as well. I never saw China be a major power in Industrial but they are quite a powerhouse in Classical and early Medieval. But after that point they usually get weakened and eaten by other AIs, that is definitely true. You don't have to roleplay it like that, though.

- "it less matter when you facing higher difficult" - that's definitely not what my experience with this game was. The only time when I imagined Germany (and strong army roster in general) as OP was when I played on noble. After transitioning to Monarch and higher, I began to value eco bonuses more.

Notes on civs you mentioned:
I played a lot of Germany, French, Hungary, Ethiopia, and America on Emperor (dozens of games per each). Unless I played them completely wrong (which is possible), I found that they are definitely more map-dependent then China/Hindi/Roman or what have you. Germany doesn't have early eco bonuses, as you admit, and I find it their main weakness. AI easily outtechs Germany player, making their units almost useless. But if you survive, you may have some chances later, true.

On paper, French, Hungarian and Ethiopian all are all very nice because of +happiness UI. In reality, in majority of my games with them I had 1 wine/coffee/horse or none at all. Rarely you get 2-3 of these resources, and almost never 4 or more. So yeah - if you're lucky, you're good, and if you aren't, you have very little to zero bonuses (until cultivation techs). "they can safely and easily hit gunpowder era, nothing like China" - my experience definitely does not back up that. I enjoyed playing French but in Classical era it's always a struggle economy-wise (unless you have decent amount of wine, and it's not a given). If you prevail early struggles - you're good of course. They do bloom later, I've never denied that. But it is much easier to prevail in Classical era as China, and you can be defeated early as French.

About Ethiopia - all the same thoughts, but upon further reflection - I forgot about Ethiopian Palace. Their other UB is meh but Palace seems good. I should have said Hungary instead of Ethiopia, my bad. Ethiopia is definitely comparable to China (mid to weak).

America seems a lot more viable than the above mentioned civs, I agree – you can have 3-5 ranches for 4+ cities quite consistently. But in my experience guaranteed unique courthouse per city (and you'll have 4-6) translates to larger eco bonuses than 3-5 ranches. So unless you have luck with early ranches, America WILL NOT be a powerhouse in Classical (not to the same extent that Chinese will be). Also, compared to the above civs, ranches don't give you any happiness, and all other bonuses of America kick in too late in the game (compared to the same German, French and Ethiopian even). I mean, by the time of minutemen America AI is usually wiped out of the Earth (while Chinese are more likely to be left in the game as a vassal of Berber/Sohelia/Austronesia AI)

 

[Dread]

Playing RI Europe and my spies can conduct missions but don't get any XP. The AI conducts espionage missions against me and I can thwart espionage . I can choose missions as well.
Is this a feature of the scenario or a glitch on me?

 

[PKSRoman]

I play as Iran and conquered Israel. Persepolis has 97% of the population as Iranians and 0% of the Israeli population inside the city. How can I give my vassal my main cities (still with the word "liberate" when the number of people of that nationality in those cities fluctuates within statistical error. Very, very unrealistic. I attach the evidence

 

[Timothyy]

We surely play this mod differently. I think I can learn some of the things you mentioned (like baiting AI, for example) - maybe that will help me with Titan/Deity. Meanwhile, I'll share my perspective on what you said (i.e., how that applies to how I play):

- "AI in RI is not suiciding attack your city unless it have really high change capture it" - the thing is - in my experience, that can happen rather OFTEN If you do not prepare enough defenses, of course. Meaning: while 2 bowmen in the city are usually enough (and Chinese can swap that with bowman+axeman), sometimes you need more (like 3-4 bowmen or 2 bowmen and 1-2 axemen). If we're talking higher difficulties, AI there can still do doomstacks, true. And almost any Classical era doomstack can take on 2 unpromoted bowmen no problem. So that's why I think this Chinese bonus translates better on higher difficulties (though admittedly I mostly played Chinese on Monarch)
P.S. in RI you can promote melee units to City Defense if you really need to

- "In city defense they are not strong as chinese axeman" - whilst true, I find this reference a bit confusing. Previously you said that Chinese axeman is not that useful because sometimes you need a weaker defender, right? Well, this spear certainly fits the criteria - stronger than a warband, weaker (and cheaper!) than an axeman or bowman. To add to that, I find that 1 spear per city (of any nation) is viable strategy if AI makes horses. Meaning: of course horses die either way, but without spearmen they will face archer/melee/what have you, and that usually leads to higher odds AND higher damage (compared to cities which have a single spear that faces any cavalry offender firsthand). Ultimately, that translates to something like 3.8-4(out of 4) bowman instead of 3-3.6(out of 4) bowman (per each cavalry attack). So yeah, ANY spear may be used in city defense - but Chinese and, say, Egyptian one are better at that (because they can take out non-cavalry attackers more consistently).
And I will repeat my views on plain defense with spears, just in case you missed it. I find it impractical to build 10+ skirmishers/10+ horsemen/etc. to face any doomstack of that era – much better to use 4-6 of these and fortify your stacks (to make skirmishers/etc. less vulnerable to Melee/Archer/etc. counter-attacks). And Chinese spear is great for that - it can kill cavalry (that easilly kills skirms), it can kill archery & weak melee units (that are alright at killing at 4s skirms), etc. It is more of pre-bronze bonus but it still exists.

- "only stronger than the civ that can beat you to death with their melee troops" - there are a lot of those, though. Celts, German, Greek, Roman, English, Carthaginian, Nguni, Norse - and that's off the top of my mind. Also every Aggressive/Conqueror leader in the game. I thinks vs all of these 10% bonus is more valuable than FS. But sure, FS isn't nothing when you are already more powerful than your opponent

- "in-capturable city does not win me a game" - true, it only helps you survive on higher difficulties. Just in case, I'll repeat that I don't find Northern China OP or anything. Mid civ at their best, kinda weak at their worst. Surely Hindi, Roman, South China, etc. are much better. But the notion they are "the weakest civ" seems ridiculous to me while smth like America or Germany is in the game. More on that later

- "Classical era is about capture some nearby barbarian city" - that's something I disagree with wholeheartedly. In my opinion, you can (and should) do a lot of expansion in Classical. When necessary - through conquest, when not - through settling. The Chinese courthouse helps them with either, leader traits are well suited, too. As for Barbarian cities - well, they are always easier preventable than dealt with. Fog busting is still a thing in RI. So if a player let Barbarian settle a valuable land nearby, it's mostly on the player (again - in my opinion).

- "bad city will tank science and economies." - I think that's true of ANY civ. You always prefer better cities, sure. But what do you do if you don't have that? (Say, you spawned in tundra or desert). Germany and American and many others can just give up their game entirely at that point, because they can't boost weaker production spot and they don't have enough eco bonuses to justify early expansion in all directions.
Chinese on the other hand can do both. They will usually suffer in later eras, true. And Germany/America may try to survive until better times when their bonuses kick in - also true. But in early game China will always prevail over Germany/America - and in my experience, that is true of AI as well. I never saw China be a major power in Industrial but they are quite a powerhouse in Classical and early Medieval. But after that point they usually get weakened and eaten by other AIs, that is definitely true. You don't have to roleplay it like that, though.

- "it less matter when you facing higher difficult" - that's definitely not what my experience with this game was. The only time when I imagined Germany (and strong army roster in general) as OP was when I played on noble. After transitioning to Monarch and higher, I began to value eco bonuses more.

Notes on civs you mentioned:
I played a lot of Germany, French, Hungary, Ethiopia, and America on Emperor (dozens of games per each). Unless I played them completely wrong (which is possible), I found that they are definitely more map-dependent then China/Hindi/Roman or what have you. Germany doesn't have early eco bonuses, as you admit, and I find it their main weakness. AI easily outtechs Germany player, making their units almost useless. But if you survive, you may have some chances later, true.

On paper, French, Hungarian and Ethiopian all are all very nice because of +happiness UI. In reality, in majority of my games with them I had 1 wine/coffee/horse or none at all. Rarely you get 2-3 of these resources, and almost never 4 or more. So yeah - if you're lucky, you're good, and if you aren't, you have very little to zero bonuses (until cultivation techs). "they can safely and easily hit gunpowder era, nothing like China" - my experience definitely does not back up that. I enjoyed playing French but in Classical era it's always a struggle economy-wise (unless you have decent amount of wine, and it's not a given). If you prevail early struggles - you're good of course. They do bloom later, I've never denied that. But it is much easier to prevail in Classical era as China, and you can be defeated early as French.

About Ethiopia - all the same thoughts, but upon further reflection - I forgot about Ethiopian Palace. Their other UB is meh but Palace seems good. I should have said Hungary instead of Ethiopia, my bad. Ethiopia is definitely comparable to China (mid to weak).

America seems a lot more viable than the above mentioned civs, I agree – you can have 3-5 ranches for 4+ cities quite consistently. But in my experience guaranteed unique courthouse per city (and you'll have 4-6) translates to larger eco bonuses than 3-5 ranches. So unless you have luck with early ranches, America WILL NOT be a powerhouse in Classical (not to the same extent that Chinese will be). Also, compared to the above civs, ranches don't give you any happiness, and all other bonuses of America kick in too late in the game (compared to the same German, French and Ethiopian even). I mean, by the time of minutemen America AI is usually wiped out of the Earth (while Chinese are more likely to be left in the game as a vassal of Berber/Sohelia/Austronesia AI)

-Let me talk about spearman first. Chinese spearman have extra 25% bonus defense vs warband and axeman. I was talking about that. I do not denied it's useful, I use spearman often to defense from AI and barbarian horseman like you said. It is said that chinese spearman stronger but that bonus does not make it any stronger or any different to me.
I'll share my perspective: (difficult immortal)
- In classical era, have 3 city, My comerce often is 30s. I want atleast 60% science so about 40% tax, so about 12-14 gold, with 6 limited gold bulding, I have fund of 20 golds.
free unit maintain is about 11-12 unit.
(4 workers, 5 archer, 2 spearman, 5 skimisher, 3-4 horse archer may be axeman, slave) about 20 units (just barely enough to repel SOD with fort) , that is about -10 gold from unit maintain, -8 from city. totally -18, more if unit go outside border. China court house could bring 6 gold from merchant in 2 city. I want 2 scientists in my captital. So I could afford more 6 unit. early game I could success rush pyramid or stonehenge. If I rush stonehenge I could found 2,3 great priest, join a city, each +5 gold so 2 more city or 10 more units or more science. If I rush pyramid, that will gave me gave me great eginneer, fast a oracle, found taoism, then game may gave me 50/50 priest or engineer, engineer for fast Cheomseongdae or great library, priest for wonder.

That why I find the idea of counterattack with wave of axe absrub. I have to build more army, like at least 4 or 5 axemans, few warband. That cost me science. Most of time after defeat enemies stacks I just want to sue of peace, marching your army from your city to enemies city, fews turn to bringdown defense, that just enough for AI build reinforce.(on immortal, their city able to build warband in less than 2 turns) that is costly attack. Even if you able capture city, culture border is crushed, costly maintain, foreign ruler unhappy and you hardly keep it either. Totally not worth.​

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Axeman defense is absrub, promote city defense axeman, for what? you want train your archer, promote it. What the point of compare axeman with archer without promote? If I have infinity funding, I would find it useful. The meta is about how less unit can do the most. Your archer will never un promote, they gain exp with barbarian they fight, slave rebel, so that they can level up and useful.​

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Whole idea of civ 4 is about specializations, city specializations, unit specializations. That why holy war doctrine is strongest doctrine in the game. Hybrid kind of thing is the worst. China UU is the worst, their UI is the worst cause they are trying hybrid.​

It is inpractice if you try to aggressive expand in this era, it just shrink your economies and science unless you have strong unit that could attack and defense ( to replace and skimisher, horse archer that can only defense your border cause malus city str) but that is wish of every civ.

-So the optimal strategy in my classical I think is try to stay peaceful as possible, unlock fort, (repel invader with 4-5 skimisher with specializing rough terrain like forest or hill, 2 bowman is luxury already not saying addtional axeman, unessesary and cost maintain). That way I can have high science output to unlock doctrine, wonder.
Thank courthouse, with one addtional scientist, Cheomseongdae, science wonder, they net about more 15+ science (if science out put is 70%+) and good amount of GPP, spawn great scienctist, join city, sometime during medieval, China may able have tech lead if AI waging war a lot (sound china strong but any civ could do that if they can build Cheomseongdae by some extent)

-But problem I need expand. I wish I can just stay there and turling, I expand now or never, china reach their powerspike here. That is where china downfall. Their weak offensive unit so I they need more unit to do the job. That sank science, gold, by a lot.
-If I am other civ like japan, mongol, south china,... or what ever civ that reach their power spike but just example japan mongol south china cause they have power spike in same era. Their powerful UU can take city like taking a candy, may not even lose a single unit, no need wait healing, re troops, they easily take 4 or 5 city in span of 20-30 turns. But china, it would take them double amount of that time or even more.
-So after expand period of china, I have about 7-9 city, about 6-7 tech behind even I was the one with tech lead before I expand. War too costly, UU units useless now, economies destroyed, science 0, science gap will widen more, probraby just wait the Civ from other side of map bring their stack of 30s line infantry wipe me out of map.

-And bring in bad start patching ability of canal do not make them any stronger.
I never seen a tundra without a hill, a desert without resource. If there is really place with nothingless, why settle there? They increase your research cost, cost your maintain. Why settle there? I don't get it.

-Situation if I am Germany, French or America right now. I probrably with only 3-4 citys, behind about 3-5 techs but science still go strong, not too good but still winable when their time come.

-Hungary's horse archer is one of strongest in the game, just below mongol. Arpad , his Charismatic trait (25% less exp to level up) combine with his National unit Black legions( start with leadership-+100%exp perk), with some training you will have 6 Chonky Hunni can slay an army.It like have free 6 great general. Hungary is amazing

 

[Dathur the Sick]

Thank you for your reply. With this detailed analysis with numbers and everything, I certainly see your perspective more clearly. Perhaps, I overestimated Chinese due to not playing RI for some time. I still have a couple of remarks, though!

"It is said that chinese spearman stronger but that bonus does not make it any stronger or any different to me" - that's absolutely fair. I can see your point about relative "usefulness" of this unit.

"-So after expand period of china, I have about 7-9 city, about 6-7 tech behind even"
"-Situation if I am Germany, French or America right now. I probrably with only 3-4 citys, behind about 3-5 techs"
That seems like a fair assessment of Immortal mid-game. I did not play RI for a while, mind you, but I can believe in the numbers you presented. The question I have is: at what point of tech tree are we in this hypothetical scenarios? Cause that matters economy-wise.

To clarify, I've always preferred playing a bit wide in RI for 3 reasons:
(1) as you said yourself - you want more resources, obviously
(2) you have a larger power index, and AI respects you a bit more for that
(3) wide usually scales better with eco buildings (in my opinion)

So, if we are near reworked schools - that's probably problematic for 7-9 cities lowbudget China, because schools would not improve their economy much. But if that's near the end of Medieval? I'd probably take 7-9 settled cities, to be honest. Forbidden Palace + Universities + National University alone should do a significant boost (and 3-4 city civs would have neither Palace nor NU, which is a bummer).
Also, 7-9 cities means more resources = more capabilities for growth and warfare.
Also-also, if it's the end of Medieval— banks, mayor's houses, print shops, and observatories are getting closer, and this improves wide economy A LOT in my experience. Renaissance is usually the point where I as a player turn from a "developing country" to science leader. If I survive until these buildings, of course (that's definitely not a given on Emperor and Immortal).
So, all of that is to say - I can see your perspective, and I don't disagree with you necessarily - but I also find your scenario not that hopeless for China Unless... that's 0 science in the beginning of Medieval Then it's GG, for sure.

About Hungary (and a little bit about China):
"horse archer is one of strongest in the game," - true, although it's also one of the most expensive HA. But classical era HA is more of a defensive unit anyway, isn't it? I don't see how Hungary can do a lot of conquest prior to their UUs (because of average melee roster and weak economy). And I say it because I tried (with various success)
"Arpad , his Charismatic trait (25% less exp to level up)" - I agree, Arpad's amazing! No denying that. Though I find it a bit unfair that we never discussed Chinese leaders in the same context (meaning, when talking about weaknesses of Chinese, you never brought up their leaders, but here you do that for Hungary).
For example, I find Qin Shi Huang quite OP: Conqueror, Industrious, Isolationist. Conq will help you with early warband/axeman conquest (and wars throughout the game in general), and it boosts strong Chinese cavalry (including questionable UU); Ind is a powerful economy trait (arguably the strongest, on par with Seafarer); and well, Iso is not that bad (there are worser traits for sure). So, that's a nice combination. I totally recommend you to check him out

"Black legions( start with leadership-+100%exp perk), with some training you will have 6 Chonky Hunni can slay an army" - that is an interesting counterpoint! Now I feel that I underestimated their UU it is still short-lived because AI researches line infantry quickly - but definitely not useless. I should play with Hungary more

And in the end, I want to say thank you for this conversation. It is nice to discuss this mod like that. And you also inspired me to try China and Hungary on Immortal again, which I'm grateful for.
Have a nice day!

P.S. Sorry, it seems I've missed your point about canals. "I never seen a tundra without a hill, a desert without resource." - true But I've definitely seen tundra and desert without much production. For example, if your capital is in tundra and you have 2-3 tundra hills and no production resources... that's just sad. But now that I actually opened civilopedia, I see that Canal i built on Glassland/Plains only. So, yeah After all, other civs can use forest to improve their start, and lumbermills are close in tech with Canals. But +2prod2coin in Guilds though! I don't remember Canals being that good! That seems useful

 

[Timothyy]

Thank you for your reply. With this detailed analysis with numbers and everything, I certainly see your perspective more clearly. Perhaps, I overestimated Chinese due to not playing RI for some time. I still have a couple of remarks, though!

"It is said that chinese spearman stronger but that bonus does not make it any stronger or any different to me" - that's absolutely fair. I can see your point about relative "usefulness" of this unit.

"-So after expand period of china, I have about 7-9 city, about 6-7 tech behind even"
"-Situation if I am Germany, French or America right now. I probrably with only 3-4 citys, behind about 3-5 techs"
That seems like a fair assessment of Immortal mid-game. I did not play RI for a while, mind you, but I can believe in the numbers you presented. The question I have is: at what point of tech tree are we in this hypothetical scenarios? Cause that matters economy-wise.

To clarify, I've always preferred playing a bit wide in RI for 3 reasons:
(1) as you said yourself - you want more resources, obviously
(2) you have a larger power index, and AI respects you a bit more for that
(3) wide usually scales better with eco buildings (in my opinion)

So, if we are near reworked schools - that's probably problematic for 7-9 cities lowbudget China, because schools would not improve their economy much. But if that's near the end of Medieval? I'd probably take 7-9 settled cities, to be honest. Forbidden Palace + Universities + National University alone should do a significant boost (and 3-4 city civs would have neither Palace nor NU, which is a bummer).
Also, 7-9 cities means more resources = more capabilities for growth and warfare.
Also-also, if it's the end of Medieval— banks, mayor's houses, print shops, and observatories are getting closer, and this improves wide economy A LOT in my experience. Renaissance is usually the point where I as a player turn from a "developing country" to science leader. If I survive until these buildings, of course (that's definitely not a given on Emperor and Immortal).
So, all of that is to say - I can see your perspective, and I don't disagree with you necessarily - but I also find your scenario not that hopeless for China Unless... that's 0 science in the beginning of Medieval Then it's GG, for sure.

About Hungary (and a little bit about China):
"horse archer is one of strongest in the game," - true, although it's also one of the most expensive HA. But classical era HA is more of a defensive unit anyway, isn't it? I don't see how Hungary can do a lot of conquest prior to their UUs (because of average melee roster and weak economy). And I say it because I tried (with various success)
"Arpad , his Charismatic trait (25% less exp to level up)" - I agree, Arpad's amazing! No denying that. Though I find it a bit unfair that we never discussed Chinese leaders in the same context (meaning, when talking about weaknesses of Chinese, you never brought up their leaders, but here you do that for Hungary).
For example, I find Qin Shi Huang quite OP: Conqueror, Industrious, Isolationist. Conq will help you with early warband/axeman conquest (and wars throughout the game in general), and it boosts strong Chinese cavalry (including questionable UU); Ind is a powerful economy trait (arguably the strongest, on par with Seafarer); and well, Iso is not that bad (there are worser traits for sure). So, that's a nice combination. I totally recommend you to check him out

"Black legions( start with leadership-+100%exp perk), with some training you will have 6 Chonky Hunni can slay an army" - that is an interesting counterpoint! Now I feel that I underestimated their UU it is still short-lived because AI researches line infantry quickly - but definitely not useless. I should play with Hungary more

And in the end, I want to say thank you for this conversation. It is nice to discuss this mod like that. And you also inspired me to try China and Hungary on Immortal again, which I'm grateful for.
Have a nice day!

P.S. Sorry, it seems I've missed your point about canals. "I never seen a tundra without a hill, a desert without resource." - true But I've definitely seen tundra and desert without much production. For example, if your capital is in tundra and you have 2-3 tundra hills and no production resources... that's just sad. But now that I actually opened civilopedia, I see that Canal i built on Glassland/Plains only. So, yeah After all, other civs can use forest to improve their start, and lumbermills are close in tech with Canals. But +2prod2coin in Guilds though! I don't remember Canals being that good! That seems useful

-spearman: not only that, that make chinese spearman cost higher (55 vs 45 normal). Is mod author hating china or something?
-it about late half medieval, unlocked crucible steel, mechanical when I start expand and after expand I about researched more 1,2 more tech, stole 1,2 tech. AI entering their first renaissance tech.
-I alway play with Qin Shi Huang. But his Iso really hurt during during this medieval time, may lose me about 2-4 commerces each city. I may reconsider to play Tang Taizong instead, he will hurt my already cripple army but may I use more techlead to transfer them to military strength. Hope it better.
-About Hungary. I bring in Arpad cause he is one of strongest leader in the game, everything of him work so well with his civ. Arpad don't need play conquest cause he have expansionist trait, just settle, confederation civic, build hunter cabin, build recon, it instant have 2 level up.

I can have steady 80-100 science through classical era cause no need maintain large army, with high trained smaller army can kill invader just fine . And if AI try contest settle nearby, I will just declare war and kill them. Hungary recon and horse archer so strong so war is no problem, even good for economy cause they will just sue for peace and pay war reparations, farming great general point too.​

-Black Legions is no shortlive. You can alway upgrade them to line infatry or rifleman later. With their ridiculous stacked level, they are still demi god.

 

[Hafenguy]

Like watching that great conversation between the two of you.

 

[PKSRoman]

i can build a highway due radiation effect xD

 

[AspiringScholar]

Yes, that conversation between Dathur and Timothyy is the exact sort of meaty debate with deep analysis of the granular details of this mod which is the most enriching and enjoyable part of this thread. Thanks to you both for that detailed conversation!

One question/comment I have, though (being a player, admittedly a weaker one than both of you, who prefers a tall early game and a wide late game), is why such an approach wasn't considered as viable when assessing civs with late power-arcs? Both of you seem to have concurred that Germany and America are weak overall, even if they can bloom later. I am comfortable winning on Monarch (though I don't always win) but Emperor is still completely unapproachable to me; nevertheless at least at that difficulty level, such an approach is actually quite successful in my games. If I can successfully expand into acquiring into 4-6 ideally-placed and eventually highly developed cities in the early and midgame, my gambit for survival is usually secured, and (after the hefty renaissance bonuses mentioned are built and kick-in), an incredibly aggressive expansion phase can often hand me the game (my biggest guiding factor there being the economic underpinning of overexpansion, which will ruin you if implemented too early and you don't have a strong economy underneath, which by this point can be threaded together with trade, foreign or domestic, but hardly before with any feasibility unless you're in an edge case with Seafaring and Colossus on a generous coastal map or something), though my preference is still actually to fully industrialize before going on such a conquering spree with late industrial and modern era units (nukes post-warhead delivery but pre-SDI are almost game-breakingly powerful if followed up with conventional warfare). In that vain, America and Germany are actually strong civs in my opinion (America for its excellent gunpowder roster, notably the Minuteman and WW2-era Marine, and Germany for its excellent melee roster in securing survival until this point). Have either of you tried such an approach at Emperor or above? I could see it being nullified by AI production and commerce bonuses past Monarch, but I saw nothing of an analysis of such an approach which is how I typically play quite successfully, at Monarch at least...

Also, even though Germany is one of my favorite civs, what on earth is the deal with its UB? +2 rather than +5, all for one additional craftsman and a slot for an additional engineer? That feels more like an even trade than the hallmark of a strong industrial-era civ, like Germany at this time was. Sure, it might be marginally better than the default, but I see no sense in a nerf against the standard Machine Tools Factory if this is the time that this civ, which gets no longbows, no horse archers, and an almost unusable unique improvement, is supposed to shine.

 

[Timothyy]

Yes, that conversation between Dathur and Timothyy is the exact sort of meaty debate with deep analysis of the granular details of this mod which is the most enriching and enjoyable part of this thread. Thanks to you both for that detailed conversation!

One question/comment I have, though (being a player, admittedly a weaker one than both of you, who prefers a tall early game and a wide late game), is why such an approach wasn't considered as viable when assessing civs with late power-arcs? Both of you seem to have concurred that Germany and America are weak overall, even if they can bloom later. I am comfortable winning on Monarch (though I don't always win) but Emperor is still completely unapproachable to me; nevertheless at least at that difficulty level, such an approach is actually quite successful in my games. If I can successfully expand into acquiring into 4-6 ideally-placed and eventually highly developed cities in the early and midgame, my gambit for survival is usually secured, and (after the hefty renaissance bonuses mentioned are built and kick-in), an incredibly aggressive expansion phase can often hand me the game (my biggest guiding factor there being the economic underpinning of overexpansion, which will ruin you if implemented too early and you don't have a strong economy underneath, which by this point can be threaded together with trade, foreign or domestic, but hardly before with any feasibility unless you're in an edge case with Seafaring and Colossus on a generous coastal map or something), though my preference is still actually to fully industrialize before going on such a conquering spree with late industrial and modern era units (nukes post-warhead delivery but pre-SDI are almost game-breakingly powerful if followed up with conventional warfare). In that vain, America and Germany are actually strong civs in my opinion (America for its excellent gunpowder roster, notably the Minuteman and WW2-era Marine, and Germany for its excellent melee roster in securing survival until this point). Have either of you tried such an approach at Emperor or above? I could see it being nullified by AI production and commerce bonuses past Monarch, but I saw nothing of an analysis of such an approach which is how I typically play quite successfully, at Monarch at least...

Also, even though Germany is one of my favorite civs, what on earth is the deal with its UB? +2 rather than +5, all for one additional craftsman and a slot for an additional engineer? That feels more like an even trade than the hallmark of a strong industrial-era civ, like Germany at this time was. Sure, it might be marginally better than the default, but I see no sense in a nerf against the standard Machine Tools Factory if this is the time that this civ, which gets no longbows, no horse archers, and an almost unusable unique improvement, is supposed to shine.

German UB give you free craftman, that alone worth 6-8, addtional base +2 ,total 8-10 . worth 1.5-2x normal machine factory. Not saying it cost much cheaper and can build faster with coal and steel that you should have both by that time unlike normal that need cement which lie on another branch of research. There is nothing nerf in it. It literally OP, easily one of the best UB.
Don't fear aggressive expand with german. German can expand very early with their very strong axe, spear, warband and their UB ( early medieval Mayor office) will patched up your economies after that.
german is no weak, they are far stronger than china, they just can't bully their neighbor like some other strong civ.
Play tall and wide later totally viable, just don't too passive cause if let your neighbor AI freely grow, they will crush you with their unfair army.

 

[Noyyau]

Hello, I'd like to experiment with different values for the "Ahead of time" tech cost increases, however I can't seem to find where these values are stored. Had a look in \Assets\XML and \Assets\python but counldn't discern anything related to this specific mechanic. What file should I look for? Thanks

 

[AspiringScholar]

German UB give you free craftman, that alone worth 6-8, addtional base +2 ,total 8-10 . worth 1.5-2x normal machine factory. Not saying it cost much cheaper and can build faster with coal and steel that you should have both by that time unlike normal that need cement which lie on another branch of research. There is nothing nerf in it. It literally OP, easily one of the best UB.
Don't fear aggressive expand with german. German can expand very early with their very strong axe, spear, warband and their UB ( early medieval Mayor office) will patched up your economies after that.
german is no weak, they are far stronger than china, they just can't bully their neighbor like some other strong civ.
Play tall and wide later totally viable, just don't too passive cause if let your neighbor AI freely grow, they will crush you with their unfair army.

I actually forgot about the fact that it has two-thirds of the hammer cost (and indeed never even noticed that it takes even better resource discounts!), but what I meant by referring to a nerf was the static +2 that the Assembly Plant gives relative to the +5 given by the Machine Tools Factory. True, the free craftsman already outweighs that on its own, but under the worst circumstances at this stage of the game, you'd be left with a +6 total, netting you only a single additional relative to the generic building, and under ideal circumstances (such as playing Bismark or Hitler for Industrious, running Protectionism, etc.), a maximum net difference of 3 (not worthless, but relatively insignificant yield at this stage of the game with late game production costs). Granted, the additional slot for a craftsman and engineer isn't insignificant (though it costs food, unhealthiness/epidemic chance, and the opportunity cost of whatever else each citizen could be doing instead), but my point was that it seems odd that the Assembly Plant didn't simply retain the same base stats as the Machine Tools Factory and then have its special benefits applied on top of them. That is what I meant by "nerf," not that it is overall worse, but that something was taken from the base stats to compensate for the free craftsman, which seems odd if the point was to make it a uniquely powerful and special industrial building, to pull it backwards at all in the same direction as the bonuses it's deliberately getting in the first place.

 

[Timothyy]

I actually forgot about the fact that it has two-thirds of the hammer cost (and indeed never even noticed that it takes even better resource discounts!), but what I meant by referring to a nerf was the static +2 that the Assembly Plant gives relative to the +5 given by the Machine Tools Factory. True, the free craftsman already outweighs that on its own, but under the worst circumstances at this stage of the game, you'd be left with a +6 total, netting you only a single additional relative to the generic building, and under ideal circumstances (such as playing Bismark or Hitler for Industrious, running Protectionism, etc.), a maximum net difference of 3 (not worthless, but relatively insignificant yield at this stage of the game with late game production costs). Granted, the additional slot for a craftsman and engineer isn't insignificant (though it costs food, unhealthiness/epidemic chance, and the opportunity cost of whatever else each citizen could be doing instead), but my point was that it seems odd that the Assembly Plant didn't simply retain the same base stats as the Machine Tools Factory and then have its special benefits applied on top of them. That is what I meant by "nerf," not that it is overall worse, but that something was taken from the base stats to compensate for the free craftsman, which seems odd if the point was to make it a uniquely powerful and special industrial building, to pull it backwards at all in the same direction as the bonuses it's deliberately getting in the first place.

I just checked the wiki
The building itself is already grand you +2 to craftman.
Industrious trait +1. working class civic and it's national wonder +2. Protectionism +1. sawmill+1. +1 base. static +2 total +10. Max net different is +5.
Later +1 from electric substation.

 

[Panzeri]

Just out of curiosity, which mapscript are you using? I mean, to get an interesting map?

 

[trashmunster]

Just out of curiosity, which mapscript are you using? I mean, to get an interesting map?

Totestra or PerfectMongoose. They generate the most aesthetically pleasing maps that remind of some real planet. I like to randomize climate settings, cause playing on super dry, super cold planets can be fun also. RI map generator is okay too but sometimes it produces very ugly shredded spaghetti continents

 

[trashmunster]

Oh and I forgot to mention, I love perfect-world style resource spread. It motivates you for some sort of expansion that reminds of real world colonial initiatives. (usually it about securing coal, bauxite, sulfur or uranium)
Its extremely boring to play with vanilla-style resource spread where almost any strategic resource is located around your starting location.

 

[Timothyy]

Personal civilizations ranking
Tier Cheat mode:
England: Well, everything about this civ is OP. 3 OP leader (elizabeth, henry, victoria) all three have best of the best malus and bonus trait combine. Strong Unique Improvement , OP bank, Strong unit roster. Game breaking National unit. This civ have no weakness. Strong from early to endgame. Stronger than all other civ, by larger margin. Feel like cheat mode when playing them.
Tier 1:
France: Unit roster crazy stupid strong. Musketeer OP. Grenadier 13 str, more smoother power curve than america. Very strong
Cathage: Elissa, powerful leader, UI depend of map but dye is one of the best resource, and can cultivate early (earliest in kind of it UI, most other need Pharmacy and Botany, cathage only need water pump). Strong UB. OP National unit, Barbary Pirates start with Amphibious, 50% bonus attack city, unlock early, if you can found Holy war doctrine, they melt city like a butter, not even stack of longbowman can stop them. Other cathage national unit is pretty strong too. Their unit roster pretty good aswell.
Japan: Mutsuhito or Hirohito, they pretty good leader, Mutsuhito may better I think. Strong UI - the fishing boat on island, very unique, by medieval their bonus equal offshore oil platform late game. Strong UB. OP National unit, Wako, like Barbary Pirates above, start with Amphibious, 30% city attack but have addtional 20% bonus to archer and melee, so actually it is 50% but can useful outside city too, only downside is they have 7str why Barbary Pirates have 8 str. But have raider is bonus so they equal. Same tech. I like wako more cause they have raider. Kensei, like their description, one of the best melee unit but unlock a bit too late, useful in open field. Their unit roster strong, samurai strong, cavalry strong, have horse archer, longbowman, strong industrial roster. Strong civ from early to late.
Mongol: strongest medieval civ. Very powerful Genghis khan. Strong UI. OP unique improvement. UB buffing their powerful horse archer. Their horse archer can take some city even without seige weapon with some promote. Attach great general to their UU gunpowder, take movement promote, stack them with horse archer and mobile trebuchets, you can take a city every 3 turn. Later era does not matter cause you win game by medieval anyway (unless your map too big)
Russia: Their UI not too strong but very useful, especially early game, the trick is build them on luxury resource, forest bonus, resource on plot bonus it will easily yield more than normal improvement, not saying you keep your healthy forest, environment friendly. UB bonus health, lab a unlock late, not too strong but useful. Only good leader is peter I, you do not need more than 1 leader anyway. Unit roster is average at best. But with gulyay gorod and leib guard (grenadier), thes two enough to carry entire russia roster.

Leib guard is strongest grenadier in the game. They have 13 str, 40% bonus gunpowder. Strategy is rush holy war doctrine, train stack of man-at arm, promote holy war , upgrade to leib guard, with those bonus, it can kill even industrial unit easily. Gulyay gorod have +150% defense cavaly. Stack them with each other you have unstoppable force until machine gun.​

Tier 2: Strong
America: It is all about survive early, reach gunpowder era and start gaining power and reach late industrial you default win. You only have your UI ranch to carry you until that, ranch pretty powerful so you will be fine if you have some pasture plot around you. America leader roster is pretty bad. Strong civ but a bit boring.
Nguni: Mongol lite
Roman: Mongol of ancient and classical, but those era is not long, no vassal state, you not have enough economies to run your wide conquest empire either.
Berber: Op Ksar, OP unique public well. Unit roster is OP when fighting on desert. National Unit is strong but not game breaking like those civ above. Leader roster is meh.

Tier 3: Balance
- Most of civ staying here. Each civ have different way to play, not too strong ,not too weak.
Tier 4: A bit weak
-Arab: Berber lite. Your kingdom in the desert, no one want your desert and you can't go outside either. Weaker than berber in in every aspect
-Incan: Arabian but hill.
-Ethitopia: France's brother, map dependent, weak leader roster. At least they have Oromoi Warrior can carry them a little during early renaissance era

Tier 5: Useless
-China: everything about this civ is useless. Masochist civ.

 

[ThirdOrbital]

@Timothyy Well those are some interesting opinions. Some of which I even agree with. I'm curious though, do you normally play on world map? For instance:

-Arab: Berber lite. Your kingdom in the desert, no one want your desert and you can't go outside either. Weaker than berber in in every aspect

I normally play random maps and frequently a few distinctive unit bonuses to desert combat are completely irrelevant. I certainly wouldn't seek out a lower-yield desert terrain simply for the combat aid or the slightly better oasis settlement. I do agree Berber is a strong civ regardless of starting terrain but with a few noteworthy exceptions I feel like leader traits and starting position are far more important that unit rosters.

 

[Timothyy]

@Timothyy Well those are some interesting opinions. Some of which I even agree with. I'm curious though, do you normally play on world map? For instance:


I normally play random maps and frequently a few distinctive unit bonuses to desert combat are completely irrelevant. I certainly wouldn't seek out a lower-yield desert terrain simply for the combat aid or the slightly better oasis settlement. I do agree Berber is a strong civ regardless of starting terrain but with a few noteworthy exceptions I feel like leader traits and starting position are far more important that unit rosters.

totestra map.But I will turn off resource display, then reroll with world builder until I have good map. Sound like cheating, but I don't want wasting time. Imagine play some turns, min max, planning city location then I discover I spawn alone on the remote island in middle of ocean, nah I don't want to play end turn simulator. England, Japan like island, that is default win (can freely trade, open border with everyone while spend little on defense, just build ship and sink anyone try to cross your sea, not fun, boring easy game) reroll. Ugly thin spaghetti map, meh, reroll. Jungle Greek? Nah, like RI manual said, no jungle greek, "not only it is no relatable, it clash with gameplay as well (hoplite phalanx -50% in jungle)", reroll.
So I spend some time to reroll map until I get my desired map. Some time to edit AI. Swapping their location to their favorite biomes, like reason above, "jungle greek" ,it's pity when the civ have play a game with handicap throw at them.

Like there is desert maya? How about swap their place to some civ that more suitable in desert, win win? Look at their neighbor, it is nguni, he spawned on the vastly plain, he will soon wipe them out of map, take their resourceful capital and use those advantage to steamroll whole continent. I may survive, his empire so large so his science will sink, my overleveled unit can defense my country somewhat so if I focus on science I may win, but dealing with his 30+ city produce nothing but endless horde of army and spy for next 1000 turn is no fun. Let we do each other a favor so the game not become vampire survivor?

Surely if you go complete random, the ranking civ will be different. Like, hey Mongol is useless if you start on oceanlocked island but if it was Norse or Indonesia you can still play them, so mongol weak. Or landlocked Indonesia, Norse, jungle greek, desert maya, tundra egypt, any non-egypt in middle of 18 floodplain,.... . Unlike newer Civ there is no starting bias feature in Civ4. I want rank them according fully potential condition.

Desert no yield but oasis is like twice yield of normal plot. 3 oasis is equal 3 farm, 1 watermill (or mine) and 1 or 2 cottage. So 6 population desert city = 9 population normal city with less demand, you have more option in civic like Confederation. But desert city only good at Commerce so that is the trade off, normal can specialist, production . Ksar bonus happy so you can ignore happy building, noira huge bonus health so you can ignore some health building early too. Late game surely desert city is pretty crap but they are self-sufficient due their high commerce and low population. Desert cities are easily to defense also ( desert no cover, high movement cost, no annoy AI put their city at minimal distance next to your , give you more time to mobile your army)
I would say I alway seek a desert city if I have change, especially if I playing berber or arabian. Most of berber unit have 20% on desert, that is huge