Recursive made that officially out of scope for the VP project.Huh? Doesn't the engine allow it? I think it was done in some mod.
Recursive made that officially out of scope for the VP project.Huh? Doesn't the engine allow it? I think it was done in some mod.
What do you mean "used first"? Gold is global.Based on the fact that the city where the army is stationed is ruined, how about unit maintenance gold being used first in nearby cities.
In the late game, it is easy to cover that with a few caravans, so I don't know if it will be effective.
Sry for my bad english grammar
I mean one of city's gold yield. If it is not enough, it makes poverty unhappiness. As far as I know, the military power by distance is already applied to VP. Like this city's gold yield is used first for maintenance by distance and it can make regional unhappiness. Perhaps it's just complicated and of little use for reducing military...What do you mean "used first"? Gold is global.
But why? Do we still have a problem with that?Perhaps we could try the idea of separating the supply of naval units from the supply of land units?
I've been using 3 UPT for a while in my modmod, and the AI does utilize it, although not very well. I have the feeling that it's often accidental and it still prioritizes 1 UPT (I'm still seeing carpets), unfortunately.even if it weren't forbidden, the AI just won't adjust as-is even if engine is capable -- try one of the mods that allows stacking, the AI will never stack any units. Its been a few years since I last tried this but in my experience, our VP AI will only analyze for 1UPT. Redeveloping a stacking AI would be very daunting task.
anyway, polite reminder we have a separate thread for stacking-related discussion. The hope here is to explore new supply mechanisms & systems
Base VP | Tweaked | |
---|---|---|
Flat Supply Divisor | 1 + 83% * tech progress | 1 + 100% * tech progress |
Supply from Population Divisor | 1 + 700% * tech progress | 1 + 100% * tech progress |
Difficulty Flat Supply Bonus | Whatever it is currently | +1 the current number (to Human, AI, but not City-State) |
Difficulty-based Supply from Population | 35%-15% | 20% (to Human, Ai, and City-State) |
Base Supply per City | +1 Supply | 0 Supply |
Lighthouse (and its UB) | +1 Supply | 0 Supply |
Harbor | +2 Supply | +1 Supply |
Seaport | 20% Supply from Population | 10% Supply from Population |
Stable | 10% Supply from Population | +1 Supply |
Walls, Castle, Bastion Fort, Arsenal, Military Base's Supply from Population | 10%/10%/10%/10%/20% | All 5% |
Bastion Fort's New Change | 0 Supply | +1 Flat Supply |
Parthenon | +10% Supply from local Population | 0% |
Justice's Royal Guardhouse | 20% Supply from Local Population | +10% Supply from Population in all Cities |
Dominance | +10% Supply from local Population | +5 Flat Supply |
Autocracy's United Front | +50% Supply from Population in all Cities | +25% Supply from Population in all Cities |
France UA | 25% from Population in all Cities | 15% from Population in all Cities |
Do you think it is possible to add a "hard cap" based on the size of the map ? Or at least have the possibility of putting one using a .sql ? What I mean is that the supply normally increases but can never exceed number X (e.g. 100).Supply proposal draft based on the Tweaked numbers (from the current version of my tweaks mod):
Base VP Tweaked Flat Supply Divisor 1 + 83% * tech progress 1 + 100% * tech progress Supply from Population Divisor 1 + 700% * tech progress 1 + 100% * tech progress Difficulty Flat Supply Bonus Whatever it is currently +1 the current number (to Human, AI, but not City-State) Difficulty-based Supply from Population 35%-15% 20% (to Human, Ai, and City-State) Base Supply per City +1 Supply 0 Supply Lighthouse (and its UB) +1 Supply 0 Supply Harbor +2 Supply +1 Supply Seaport 20% Supply from Population 10% Supply from Population Stable 10% Supply from Population +1 Supply Walls, Castle, Bastion Fort, Arsenal, Military Base's Supply from Population 10%/10%/10%/10%/20% All 5% Bastion Fort's New Change 0 Supply +1 Flat Supply Parthenon +10% Supply from local Population 0% Justice's Royal Guardhouse 20% Supply from Local Population +10% Supply from Population in all Cities Dominance +10% Supply from local Population +5 Flat Supply Autocracy's United Front +50% Supply from Population in all Cities +25% Supply from Population in all Cities France UA 25% from Population in all Cities 15% from Population in all Cities
Introducing the new Empire Size modifier that can be made to affect both Flat Supply and Supply from Population: similar to Tech and Policy modifiers, you need +5% of supply per city to reach the same supply count, just like how you need 5% more Science per city to research a tech.
For example, if you have 4 cities, every 1.2 Flat Supply and Supply from Population will count as 1 Supply. Assuming NO researched tech and ignoring supply from difficulty/generals/admirals, a 20-city empire with 60 Flat Supply and 120 Supply from Population would have 180 / (1 + 5% * 20) = 90 supply cap.
Now, this modifier can
1. replace one/both of the existing modifiers;
2. additively stack with one/both of the existing modifiers;
3. multiplicatively stack with one/both of the existing modifiers;
4. a mix of the above.
I haven't decided on which yet. Open to suggestions.
The objective:
1. Tall should have higher supply per city than wide. This cannot be done with the current formula regardless of number changes (wide just has too much population per city right now), so an empire size modifier is needed.
2. Hopefully the lategame supply bloat can be addressed with the correct numbers. I expect no significant supply growth post-Industrial for the average player given the same amount of cities. Which is why I prefer keeping the tech modifier, since population still grows non-stop.
Possible questions:
Q1. Won't this make tall better than wide in warring?
A1. My aim is to make them equal assuming players evenly place their units at their borders, i.e. the supply cap to border length ratio (NOT land area; you don't need to defend the a city deep within your empire) is equal for both tall and wide. Neither should have the initial advantage, but the side with the better unit production should eventually have the upper hand.
Q2. How moddable is this?
A2. The empire size modifier per city will be yet another Defines value. Numbers can be tweaked however you want, but the stacking method (additive/multiplicative) will have to be in DLL. It's always one or the other.
Its good and organized, but to really understand it I would need to see the population and tech formulas. How does the supply from population work, how does the tech divisor actually reduce supply? Than I could put together a few examples to highlight how the change would look.Supply proposal draft based on the Tweaked numbers (from the current version of my tweaks mod):
Base VP Tweaked Flat Supply Divisor 1 + 83% * tech progress 1 + 100% * tech progress Supply from Population Divisor 1 + 700% * tech progress 1 + 100% * tech progress Difficulty Flat Supply Bonus Whatever it is currently +1 the current number (to Human, AI, but not City-State) Difficulty-based Supply from Population 35%-15% 20% (to Human, Ai, and City-State) Base Supply per City +1 Supply 0 Supply Lighthouse (and its UB) +1 Supply 0 Supply Harbor +2 Supply +1 Supply Seaport 20% Supply from Population 10% Supply from Population Stable 10% Supply from Population +1 Supply Walls, Castle, Bastion Fort, Arsenal, Military Base's Supply from Population 10%/10%/10%/10%/20% All 5% Bastion Fort's New Change 0 Supply +1 Flat Supply Parthenon +10% Supply from local Population 0% Justice's Royal Guardhouse 20% Supply from Local Population +10% Supply from Population in all Cities Dominance +10% Supply from local Population +5 Flat Supply Autocracy's United Front +50% Supply from Population in all Cities +25% Supply from Population in all Cities France UA 25% from Population in all Cities 15% from Population in all Cities
Introducing the new Empire Size modifier that can be made to affect both Flat Supply and Supply from Population: similar to Tech and Policy modifiers, you need +5% of supply per city to reach the same supply count, just like how you need 5% more Science per city to research a tech.
For example, if you have 4 cities, every 1.2 Flat Supply and Supply from Population will count as 1 Supply. Assuming NO researched tech and ignoring supply from difficulty/generals/admirals, a 20-city empire with 60 Flat Supply and 120 Supply from Population would have 180 / (1 + 5% * 20) = 90 supply cap.
Now, this modifier can
1. replace one/both of the existing modifiers;
2. additively stack with one/both of the existing modifiers;
3. multiplicatively stack with one/both of the existing modifiers;
4. a mix of the above.
I haven't decided on which yet. Open to suggestions.
The objective:
1. Tall should have higher supply per city than wide. This cannot be done with the current formula regardless of number changes (wide just has too much population per city right now), so an empire size modifier is needed.
2. Hopefully the lategame supply bloat can be addressed with the correct numbers. I expect no significant supply growth post-Industrial for the average player given the same amount of cities. Which is why I prefer keeping the tech modifier, since population still grows non-stop.
Possible questions:
Q1. Won't this make tall better than wide in warring?
A1. My aim is to make them equal assuming players evenly place their units at their borders, i.e. the supply cap to border length ratio (NOT land area; you don't need to defend the a city deep within your empire) is equal for both tall and wide. Neither should have the initial advantage, but the side with the better unit production should eventually have the upper hand.
Q2. How moddable is this?
A2. The empire size modifier per city will be yet another Defines value. Numbers can be tweaked however you want, but the stacking method (additive/multiplicative) will have to be in DLL. It's always one or the other.
Won't they just do? They see what supply limit they have and can make decisions based on that.This sounds great, the only question I have is how do you foresee the AI handling the adjustments?
yes we have! there have been a few threads related to this topic, can't recall if it was discussed here or in others -- but the notion of trading supply, of having to build it, these things have been raised, but with no traction so far. I think we'd find that a solid minority of players would be interested in such things, but not the full community here. In any case nothing really specific has emerged as a possible contender for either modmod or proposal, just a bunch of vague ideas. I did code up something sorta related to this in modmod sub -- it sorta works to create a "regenerating resource", although probably not what you have in mind...i havent read everything but have you thought about having supply more as a regenerating resource like in other strategy games? that way units cant be replaced that easily and wars would progress faster.
Great idea! Really dig it! No more artificial limitsWould a more simple approach, like making unit production costs increase per consumed supply, be a better solution?
In other words, change Supply to not be a cap, but rather just a number that goes up, and the more it goes up, the more it costs to produce units and more gold maintenance per unit? Can make it exponential. Eg. If you have 5 units consuming 5 supply, each additional unit costs 5% more production than base. If you have 50 units consuming 50 supply, each new unit costs 100% more production and gold maintenance. Buildings and bonuses that increase supply cap will instead reduce the penalties from supply. Eg -10% from the effect of supply.