[Religion and Revolution]: Mod Development

[raystuttgart]

Hi Robert,

it is a small thing, but I think I would like to add Bonus Resource Pumpkin.
(Simply giving Bonus + 1 on Food. On Grasland or Plains.)

About Bonus Resource Coconut, I am not really sure if it fits.
(I would give it +1 Food and +2 Wood. On Marsh + Jungle / Light Green Savanna + Jungle.)

 

[raystuttgart]

@Robert:

I had started a feature "Geographicaly Correct Placement of Natives" while I was still member of TAC but never finished working on it.

The feature itself is not important to me at all.
(Some of my former colleagues at TAC wanted it at that time.)

However I believe, that it would not be too much effort to finish it.

If you are interested, to integrate such a feature in our Mod, I could create a beta this weekend and check it into our Subversion.
If you are not interested, then it is absolutely fine for me, too.

About the feature:

Basically, there is a setting in XML (Civ4CivilizationInfos.xml) that defines if a Native Civ is put in the north, in the south or in the center during map creation.
(Currently the feature could be activated or deactivated only in XML, GlobalDefinesAlt.xml but we could create it as Game Option later on.)

 

[Vorpal+5]

Again I think you should base yourself on historical facts. The problem is that Civ4 is very city-centric when it comes to combat... 95% of the battles will occur in or against cities... whereas historically it was not often the case, most of the battles were in the countryside.

During the AWI (American War of Independence) the Americans were no match against the British regulars, until they had their own regulars, and even them were having difficulties matching British discipline and rate of fire. The 'thin red line' of the British was simply devastating and efficient.

In no way, a player should be able to fight toe to toe with the King's army, in the open at least. The AWI was a war won by attrition and guerilla. Only because the British were repeatedly caught in constrained terrains that they lost in the end. Col try to do that by giving bonus in hard terrains for natives and colonists to a lesser extent, and this is good. But the Kings soldiers should have huge bonus in open terrains, where their riflemen can do wonders...Something like +50% in plain is to be considered.

Paradoxically, the King's army should defend better in plain and not in forest, if you follow me!!

Also, there was Tories... Will you handle the creation of Royalists militia by the King? A lot of of men were still loyal to the King at the start of the AWI... They formed regiments. In Col, you don't see that.

 

[Vorpal+5]

About buildings, can you consider a more civ-esque approach? I mean with more buildings? These extra buildings would not be displayed on the colony layout, would not have use of colonists, but still they would be there (in the list of built structures) and provide a few bonus in yields. This would allow people to sense better they are building a nation (as I say, more civ-esque than before). For example you could build a bakery that produce 2 foods per turn (for free once built), a cartwheel maker that add up 1 hammer, etc.

This can be another strategy to consider, do I build these secondary buildings, investing in them, to get a bit more of yields over time, or do I stick with only the standard col buildings that require colonists to work?

 

[raystuttgart]

I have been thinking about Paragraphs of Constitution again ...

Currently I am tending to remove it from our list.
(Substituting it by further Inventions.)

Reasons:

Everything I wanted to do with Paragraphs of Constitution could also be done by Inventions that fit.
(Inventions do not have to be "Technology", they could also be something like "Ideas" or "Progress in other Sciences" or simply "Philosophical Concepts" ...)

If we do abolish Paragraphs of Constitution and only stay with Native Knowledge and Inventions this would have the following advantages:

1. It is less work.
2. It is easier for AI. Less risk of bugs.
3. It is easier to understand for the players.
4. Authenticity: It seems kind of strange that the Colonies are working on Constitution hundreds of years before they declare independence ...
5. There would be no conflict with the feature "Choosing Constitution" when Independence is declared.
6. In general the whole concept feels a little "artificial" ...

So basically inventions could also improve game features: Learning By Doing, Satisfaction, Growth, ...

@Robert:

What do you think ?

 

[raystuttgart]

About buildings, can you consider a more civ-esque approach? I mean with more buildings? These extra buildings would not be displayed on the colony layout, would not have use of colonists, but still they would be there (in the list of built structures) and provide a few bonus in yields. This would allow people to sense better they are building a nation (as I say, more civ-esque than before). For example you could build a bakery that produce 2 foods per turn (for free once built), a cartwheel maker that add up 1 hammer, etc.

This can be another strategy to consider, do I build these secondary buildings, investing in them, to get a bit more of yields over time, or do I stick with only the standard col buildings that require colonists to work?

Yes, I have been thinking myself about additional buildings without workers in them like "Bakery", "Butchery", "Coal Furnage", ...

Problem is, that they would also need some slot in city-screen and our city-screen is already very packed.
(I really want to display every building somehow.)

Eventually they would not need a full city-slot but could displayed be in small. (As is already done with "Printing Press / Newspaper" for example.)
I guess, we will simply have to see once we have integrated all our new productionlines and buildings already on our list.

On this screen you could get an idea of our city-screen, but there are still not all buildings we want in it !

Spoiler :

 

[raystuttgart]

Again I think you should base yourself on historical facts.

See, there are several major aspects:

1. Historical Correctness / Authenticity
2. Gamefun
3. Implementation Efforts
4. AI / Risk of Bugs

All of these things have to stay in balance.
We will not sacrifice other aspects to simply have the "Historcial Correctness".

 

[Robert Surcouf]

"Geographically Correct Placement of Natives"
Well, of course, I like the idea! And indeed, we can simply put a Xml tag for starters!

If I'm correct, there are 10 nations in TAC:
- Apaches [North]
- Arawaks [South]
- Aztecs [Central]
- Cherokee [North]
- Incas [Central]
- Iroquois [North]
- Mayas (New) [South]
- Sioux [North]
- Tehuelches (New) [North, I guess]
- Tupis [?]

Am I placing them correctly?

About Paragraphs of Constitution, I agree they can be philosophical inventions!
So we can remove this feature...

 

[raystuttgart]

"Geographically Correct Placement of Natives"
Well, of course, I like the idea! And indeed, we can simply put a Xml tag for starters!

Ok, then I will finish up the feature this weekend and put a beta of it into SVN when I am done.
(I will also put it in our list.)

The discussions / brainstorming about the placing, we could have in the new thread.

About Paragraphs of Constitution, I agree they can be philosophical inventions!
So we can remove this feature...

Ok, I will adjust the concept and remove it.

What about Pumpkins and Coconuts ?

 

[Robert Surcouf]

Yes! Yes! I forgot.
Coconuts and Pumpkins, I'm OK with that

 

[raystuttgart]

Coconuts and Pumpkins, I'm OK with that

It is a small thing, but I thought I should ask.

 

[colonialfan]

Hi Robert,

Inca's should be in South America.
Maya's should be in central, just slightly south of the Aztecs.
Arawaks should be central, primarily in the Carribean.
Tupi's should be south, located in the Amazon-basin area, (nothern part of South America).
Tulhuelches should be in South America.

 

[Robert Surcouf]

Hi ColonialFan,

Thank you. I had never heard of "Tulhuelche"...

 

[Vorpal+5]

Sure, but historical correctness is also part of the fun... If the end game is about having an uber soldier stack in your most powerful city against the King uber stack, then it is silly, not fun and not historical.

Having to fight in forest and hill, as historical, because the King will mop up your colonies defences, as historical, is more fun. And yes, more historical.

 

[Vorpal+5]

ouch... I see the problem. Perhaps you already have too many building needing colonists.

These extras buildings can be displayed as a square icon of 32x32 pixels at the bottom end of the colony screen, with a tooltip this is quite sufficient I believe. So they would take almost no room... And add a new layer of strategy for the player!

While I'm on building, I have done this in my private mod: you have noticed that generally only a few or even 1 of your colony needs to build a church/cathedral or college/university ... even super developed colonies could not need that...

So I went with a little idea. These high level buildings provide a free bonus in bells or crosses, without a need of colonists. So if you really want to get the most juice of your big cities, building an university now makes sense, because you'll get a few extra bells per turn.

 

[Vorpal+5]

Are you considering resources that provide a discount price on units also? Cumulatively would be even better, but then you need a cap. Say each prime timber under control is -2% to ship costs, up to -30%

You can even have resources that only give that and not an extra yield. Say a copper resource... +5% to musket production of the nearest city.

Extra layer of strategy here

 

[raystuttgart]

Are you considering resources that provide a discount price on units also? Cumulatively would be even better, but then you need a cap. Say each prime timber under control is -2% to ship costs, up to -30%

Hm, I really don't like that, sorry.

That simply does not feel like Colonization.
You need Goods / Yields to build and not control of something like in Civ.

There are new goods needed to build ships however.
(Hard Wood, Rope and Sailcloth, Cannons)

 

[raystuttgart]

Sure, but historical correctness is also part of the fun... If the end game is about having an uber soldier stack in your most powerful city against the King uber stack, then it is silly, not fun and not historical.

Having to fight in forest and hill, as historical, because the King will mop up your colonies defences, as historical, is more fun. And yes, more historical.

I had talks with other moddes for days about changing fighting system or even implementing a completely new one.

We were talking about:
(Pretty much the points you are mentioning.)

• Abandoning Stacks
• Ranged Attacks
• Totally rebalancing base values, modifiers and bonusses
• New strategies
  ...

Major problems:

• Alomst impossible to teach AI.
• The map in colonization is a strategical one and not a tactical.
• Some concepts would only work on gigantic maps at all.
• Enormous efforts.

--------------------

Summary:

Currently I am simply not willing to even try basic changes in the fighting system of CivCol.

 

[raystuttgart]

ouch... I see the problem. Perhaps you already have too many building needing colonists.

These extras buildings can be displayed as a square icon of 32x32 pixels at the bottom end of the colony screen, with a tooltip this is quite sufficient I believe. So they would take almost no room... And add a new layer of strategy for the player!

While I'm on building, I have done this in my private mod: you have noticed that generally only a few or even 1 of your colony needs to build a church/cathedral or college/university ... even super developed colonies could not need that...

So I went with a little idea. These high level buildings provide a free bonus in bells or crosses, without a need of colonists. So if you really want to get the most juice of your big cities, building an university now makes sense, because you'll get a few extra bells per turn.

We will see ...
(We have many concepts that need to fit together.)

Eventually there will be some space for a few more small buildings without workers.

 

[The_J]

Moderator Action: Moved different posts from "[Religion and Revolution]: Inventions Part C, Economy (Buildings and Professions)", "[Religion and Revolution]: Inventions Part A, Unlocking Military on Land " and "[Religion and Revolution]: Interesting Graphics / Features we might use " to this thread.