Ah, the Frigate ... so completely and utterly useless, aside from protecting against Pirates. I'd like to make a suggestion that might make someone think twice about /not/ building Frigates - a promotion only available to Frigates: "Marine Regiment" which grants the frigate a chance at capturing -- taking over -- its combat target, whether that combat target is a Privateer or Man o' War. It should not be a huge chance, certainly, but it'd spice things up ... just a chance to capture a MoW!
Revival of the Frigate
- Thread starter Chibiabos
- Start date
henryMCVII
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2008
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- 237
Great idea. 
But im afraid it will not work this suggested way. 
I agree, frigates need to be more usefull. New promotion sounds good, ... how about making "mariners" or "carronades" add 50% agianst other frigates or SOL or MOW?
But im afraid it will not work this suggested way. I agree, frigates need to be more usefull. New promotion sounds good, ... how about making "mariners" or "carronades" add 50% agianst other frigates or SOL or MOW?
Crime Doesn't Pay
Warlord
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2009
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- 279
Buff up the settlement defense bombardment damage. This will actually make naval warfare useful.
Any ship upgrades, especially types of cannons, should be available to all surface ships.
An alternate is to make sure that frigates can perform their historic role well: they were typically middle-weight fighting ships that were used as advanced scouts and raiders for a main fleet. It's stronger than the privateer, but to use it as a scout effectively it would need a greater visible range. Plus, that would help in detecting and hunting pirates.
An alternate is to make sure that frigates can perform their historic role well: they were typically middle-weight fighting ships that were used as advanced scouts and raiders for a main fleet. It's stronger than the privateer, but to use it as a scout effectively it would need a greater visible range. Plus, that would help in detecting and hunting pirates.
The frigate plays a relatively small role, but naval combat in general plays a small role in this game. I'd say the frigate fits into that equation OK... primarily protecting shipping lanes from privateers. Can also be used in attacking other colonies shipping lanes during war. Just sucks @$$ in the WoI.
The combination of higher strength and the +50% bonus against frigates makes them worthless against Ships of the Line and Man O' Wars.
Generally, my frigate (I usually only get one) and my privateer
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
I believe that Kailric has implemented this in his Pirates and Buccaneers mod. Aymerick intends to integrate this mod into Age of Further Discovery which will be pretty cool I think.
The combination of higher strength and the +50% bonus against frigates makes them worthless against Ships of the Line and Man O' Wars.
Generally, my frigate (I usually only get one) and my privateerspend the Revolution docked in a friendly foreign colony. Or an Indian settlement.
I don't understand the benefits of this whole 50% bonus against X thing anyway when it comes to ships. There is only a limited number of types. Each ship should just have a "Strength" relative to each other. If a Ship of the Line has a strength of 50 and a frigate 25, there is your relative effectiveness. These bonuses only confuse the issue.
The only bonuses should come from a nation, Founding Father or leader and they should be across the board.
Frigates should be your shipping protectors and pirate killers. And while a frigate should not be a match for a undamaged ship of the line in a toe-to-toe matchup, it should be more than adaquate to finish off a badly wounded ship of the line and two or three of them together should at least be a match for a ship of the line.
It's difficult to make precise historical comparisons because sailing ships relative combat effectiveness varied tremendously. At issue were the number of guns, the size and type of the guns, the thickness of the hull, the shape of the hull and the type of rigging. Frigates, in particular, were extremely varied in both size and capability. Almost any armed warship of a regular navy, smaller than a ship of the line was called a frigate. But for the purposes of this game, we should consider a frigate to be a ship armed with about 30-35 of smoothbore cannons on a single gun deck with a normal complement of marines. While at a severe disadvantage, a well handled frigate with the wind in his favor should be capable of occasionally defeating a ship of the line. This is where promotions would play a role. A veteran or elite frigate should probably have a 50-50 chance at defeating a novice ship of the line.
Pirate ships were not intended to fight with guns but to board and fight hand-to hand. Their goal was to board and capture ships and cargo intact. Therefore, privateer ships were generally faster and more manuverable than typical warships and carried a lot fewer guns. Their targets were generally unarmed or lightly armed merchant ships. A pirate ship would never engage a warship. The sight of a frigate would be enough to send any pirate ship sailing for the horizon as fast as they can.
On the other hand, frigates against pirate ships would have the advantage of being just as willing to sink as to board and capture a pirate ship. Closing is not needed. A frigate would attempt to get upwind of a pirate ship and run it down while harrasing it with it's chaser long gun cannons in an attempt to wound it enough to slow it down. Then either sink it or board it.
Don't worry, I agree with you. The lack of a significant number of ship types, as well as the ill-defined "ship of the line" and "man o' war" types, means the +50% bonus shouldn't be used--straight strength scores should work.
I can see a system where hull strength is represented by the overall strength of the ship, and then warships receive +X% against all naval units to reflect the fact that they are better armed for their size. For example, a merchantman and a frigate might have the same strength of 6 in this new system to represent they are similarly sized vessels, but the frigate receives a +X% bonus because it's a warship and has more guns. Pirate ships, which are not as well-equipped as standard navies, would have smaller +X% bonuses. A series of naval-specific promotions could be implemented to enhance this system--we already have veteran crews, extra cargo holds, and better navigation. Taking some inspiration from the Pirates game, we could have a Bronze Cannon upgrade to give 2 first strike chances and Iron Scantlings to increase strength by 1, or something like that. Marine Detachment promotions could be "borrowed" from the Buccaneers mod to give boarding capacity.
Borrowing another idea from Civ, combat bonuses could be given for coastal as well as ocean areas, based on what kind of riggings gave advantages in those waters. Frigates and light ships get an advantage in coastal waters, larger ships of the line in the deep sea areas. Something small, like a 5% or 10% bonus.
My other issue is with the naming of the ships--what are the man o' wars in the game, anyway? First-rates, with 3 gun decks, it appears. It would be nice if colonials could be proper brigs and frigates, and ships of the line would only appear through the king's navy or foreign intervention in the New World. To my knowledge, colonies did not maintain even 3rd rate ships of the line (the famous 72 and 74 gun designs), much less the heavier versions. Also, the option for the English colonies to construct the famous heavy frigates of the early US would be a welcome change.
I can see a system where hull strength is represented by the overall strength of the ship, and then warships receive +X% against all naval units to reflect the fact that they are better armed for their size. For example, a merchantman and a frigate might have the same strength of 6 in this new system to represent they are similarly sized vessels, but the frigate receives a +X% bonus because it's a warship and has more guns. Pirate ships, which are not as well-equipped as standard navies, would have smaller +X% bonuses. A series of naval-specific promotions could be implemented to enhance this system--we already have veteran crews, extra cargo holds, and better navigation. Taking some inspiration from the Pirates game, we could have a Bronze Cannon upgrade to give 2 first strike chances and Iron Scantlings to increase strength by 1, or something like that. Marine Detachment promotions could be "borrowed" from the Buccaneers mod to give boarding capacity.
Borrowing another idea from Civ, combat bonuses could be given for coastal as well as ocean areas, based on what kind of riggings gave advantages in those waters. Frigates and light ships get an advantage in coastal waters, larger ships of the line in the deep sea areas. Something small, like a 5% or 10% bonus.
My other issue is with the naming of the ships--what are the man o' wars in the game, anyway? First-rates, with 3 gun decks, it appears. It would be nice if colonials could be proper brigs and frigates, and ships of the line would only appear through the king's navy or foreign intervention in the New World. To my knowledge, colonies did not maintain even 3rd rate ships of the line (the famous 72 and 74 gun designs), much less the heavier versions. Also, the option for the English colonies to construct the famous heavy frigates of the early US would be a welcome change.
For purposes of this game, the typical number of guns can serve as a pretty good basis for relative strength. You can get into a lot of back and forth debate about strength, speed, seaworthiness and so forth, but for purposes of a game this is more than good enough.
A man of war should be considered a first rate, 108 gun ship of the line with three gun decks of 36 guns.
A ship of the line would be the standard 72/74 gun type (let's settle on 72 just for simplicity) on two gun decks.
A frigate we can consider the larger, newer ship-of-the-line-with-only-one-gun-deck design at 36 guns.
A pirate ship might be a large sloop or a brig and have maybe 12 or 18 guns on the main deck instead of a gun deck.
The larger ships loose some advantage in maneuverability but make up for it in hull strength.
So there is your relative strengths:
Man of War: 104 or 3
Ship of the Line: 72 or 2
Frigate: 36 or 1
Privateer: 18 or 1/2.
A little math will produce the proper relative strengths. The makes the frigate the "base" warship with all other warships scaled relative to the frigate. The cost of the ships should scale at the same ratio. In reality, this is the way it should be. The frigates generally saw more actual use and action than any other naval warship. If you never have a war or only fight on land, you could possibly get away with never even buying or building a ship of the line.
And to be historically accurate, none of the colonies would ever even have a ship of the line unless it was given by a foreign government. The colonies would never have been able to afford one. To even have even one would have been a luxury only to be afforded by the largest and most prosperous colonies. In my humble opinion, the only way a colony should get a ship of the line should be through a founding father or some other event.
A man of war should be considered a first rate, 108 gun ship of the line with three gun decks of 36 guns.
A ship of the line would be the standard 72/74 gun type (let's settle on 72 just for simplicity) on two gun decks.
A frigate we can consider the larger, newer ship-of-the-line-with-only-one-gun-deck design at 36 guns.
A pirate ship might be a large sloop or a brig and have maybe 12 or 18 guns on the main deck instead of a gun deck.
The larger ships loose some advantage in maneuverability but make up for it in hull strength.
So there is your relative strengths:
Man of War: 104 or 3
Ship of the Line: 72 or 2
Frigate: 36 or 1
Privateer: 18 or 1/2.
A little math will produce the proper relative strengths. The makes the frigate the "base" warship with all other warships scaled relative to the frigate. The cost of the ships should scale at the same ratio. In reality, this is the way it should be. The frigates generally saw more actual use and action than any other naval warship. If you never have a war or only fight on land, you could possibly get away with never even buying or building a ship of the line.
And to be historically accurate, none of the colonies would ever even have a ship of the line unless it was given by a foreign government. The colonies would never have been able to afford one. To even have even one would have been a luxury only to be afforded by the largest and most prosperous colonies. In my humble opinion, the only way a colony should get a ship of the line should be through a founding father or some other event.
Although our basic systems are wildly different (and mine was thought up on the spot and thus not fully examined), we can at least agree on this point. I'm apprehensive to say the word 'never' because I haven't examined every colonial navy, but I have never seen a real ship of the line in a revolutionary fleet, only in the king's.
The U.S. never had any. But France did send a fleet that included ships of the line. So my thoughts are that colonies only get one (or possibly more) via some event or founding father type thing. Perhaps if you've got good relations with another European power and/or they happen to be at war with your king they donate a few to your cause.
Colonies probably shouldn't be able to build them.
It would be better if, in the example of the American Revolution modeled in the game, the French fleet stayed French, and you sent a notice to the French king to request the fleet's presence around colony X (much like you say to your war allies "we think you should attack X"). Much as it happened historically, the intervening power can choose to send his fleet wherever he pleases.
I agree that would be more historically accurate, but probably a bit more of a problem code wise. The interface to choose the spot seems like it would be complicated to create. For the purposes of the game, I'd say the French (or whatever European power) either outright *gives* the colony some number of ships of the line, or they send some that loiter in the area around the main colony (or other likely attack vector) and attack the king's navy as it approaches the colony. Of the two, I'd favor the later myself but I think most players would understandably rather have the control over the ship.
kaibayashi
Warlord
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2008
- Messages
- 264
I think it probably wouldn't be that hard. Couldn't you use/adapt some of the Koma's Europe Screen code?
arkham4269
Court Writer - Orbis Mod
In the Fall Fall from Heaven modmod Orbis, they have a promotion for Letters of Marque that allows combat ships to get gold for destroying enemy ships.
Plus they have a 'boarding party' unit that can be carried by ships (Frigates included) that can take over the a ship instead of killing it.
Personally, I miss something from the old Civ III Double Your Pleasure mod where when you destroyed an enemy vessel, you had a good chance of creating a prize ship. It had different versions depending on the size of the vessel, notably it had one less cargo space than a typical ship of it's size. However, what it was good for was taking it to a friendly port and then 'destroying' it which would yield a really large
boost. It was a great way to speed production in island cities that lacked a lot of resources.
In some respects, the Frigate should have a war time mission of going into waters and instead of "Return to Homeland?" option, an option of "Commerce Raiding" should be added. Then your frigate(s) would disappear and periodically you'd get gold boosts from all the prizes taken. Or you could get your ship destroyed as well. Obviously you'd need some sort of mechanism to cancel the mission as well.
Plus they have a 'boarding party' unit that can be carried by ships (Frigates included) that can take over the a ship instead of killing it.
Personally, I miss something from the old Civ III Double Your Pleasure mod where when you destroyed an enemy vessel, you had a good chance of creating a prize ship. It had different versions depending on the size of the vessel, notably it had one less cargo space than a typical ship of it's size. However, what it was good for was taking it to a friendly port and then 'destroying' it which would yield a really large
boost. It was a great way to speed production in island cities that lacked a lot of resources. In some respects, the Frigate should have a war time mission of going into waters and instead of "Return to Homeland?" option, an option of "Commerce Raiding" should be added. Then your frigate(s) would disappear and periodically you'd get gold boosts from all the prizes taken. Or you could get your ship destroyed as well. Obviously you'd need some sort of mechanism to cancel the mission as well.
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