Revolution: with BarbarianCiv, Rebellion, AIAutoPlay

Caesium said:
And the next problem: At level noble and better there are the revolt messages in turn 1 or turn 2. A little bit early in the game, isn't it?

man, that sounds like something's a little out of whack. i play primarily on noble, venturing every now and then up to prince. the only time i've had a revolution message before 1000 AD is when i've been at war for a while or have the holy city of a religion that's spread a bit.
 
This was asked a couple of pages back. He said very late Aug, early Sept but has since said he might move this up. We shall see. In the meantime, I haven't gotten away from Warlords long enough to really play the updated version of Revolution so I'm looking forward to the Warlords edition.
 
I did some research over the weekend at the library... I went to look up books on uprisings, revolts, rebellions, insurrections and any other trouble the people manage to get into. There's a lot of books on the subject, and the search continues, but I managed to bear some fruit...

The book I focused most of my attention on discussed revolts and uprisings in medieval Europe between the late 1200s and early 1400s.

Apparently, revolts and uprisings were quite common there at this time. They were also frequently successful.

Revolts essentially happened for a number of different reasons:

Famine
Now, some of these would require much more expansive changes to the game than what jdog could provide for us in this mod alone... but famine was one of the ones I thought would be interesting to pursue.

See... this was one of the things I never understood about Civ. The citizens complain and riot because of overcrowding, but they seem to be cool with starving to death... Starvation ought to be the time when people really start making a ruckus!

Now, interestingly enough, bread & grain riots, in spite of wide-spread famines during this time in Europe, were remarkably rare... the reason was that when the issue would come up, the local leaders would fine grain from somewhere to feed the people. It often wasn't enough, but the fact that they made the effort usually kept people from rioting. Had they ignored the pleas of the peasants and the bourgeois, they could've had revolution on their hands as the French monarchy found out the hard way in 1789 after a particularly bad harvest of wheat.

I would say then that when starvation occurs, you could have the chance to do something decent, or you could "let them eat cake" and probably have a rebellion on your hands.

Inter-guild feuds
In a lot of cases, inequalities in the system was the cause... sometimes it had to do with limited disenfranchisement... in that there was an oligarchy in place and somebody else wanted their cut. This sort of goes under the inter-guild feuding... basically, most of the Italian city-states were run by guild oligarchies, and so periodically, one group of guilds would overthrow the others and establish their economic dominance in the city.

Unfortunately, the game doesn't really allow for all the fun possibilities something like this presents, so I'd say it'd have to be put way, way on the backburner.

Social and political disenfranchisement
In other cases, it was a bit more noble in which certain peoples had absolutely no rights whatsoever within the system and they wanted equal treatment before the law.

Again, without more civics, I'm just not sure this'd be terribly useful.

Taxes
While increasing taxes was rarely the background reason for rebellion, it was quite often the catalyst... the last straw as it were. This was especially true when the taxes went toward paying for something that was already a point of contention among the people.

Again, without more changes to the game, such as allowing for tax rates (which would then determine science and culture output based on the total taxes collected) there's not a whole lot we can do here.

War
Believe it or not, people did revolt against unpopular wars even in an age of despotism and frequent war. Peace movements certainly did occur, and were themselves usually peaceful protests, strikes, etc. to force an end to a conflict.

I'd say this is fairly well covered since War Weariness already slows down production in a city, and in jdog's mod can lead to violent revolt.

Religion
While usually not either the catalyst or the primary cause of rebellions, religious riots were common side effects of rebellions in medieval Europe. And I think we all know who was on the receiving end of these riots: Jews.

Since Christianity was the completely dominant religion in Europe at this time, and the complete lack of any large religious minorities living in one region, meant that the only religious rebellions one was likely to see were Christian rebellions against the power of the Catholic Church. Among the largest and famous of these was the Hussite rebellion and the Protestant Reformation and its subsequent rebellions and wars that stemmed from the initial intellectual revolution.

But they were actually much more frequent than that and typically had smaller goals and more conventional interpretations of scripture.

However, outside Europe where there were large empires encompassing many different religious minority groups, rebellions with the intention of separating from the empire of the religious majority or at the very least gaining some kind of social equality were much more frequent.


I think we really need more inter-religious strife and this would go a long way toward achieving that little (unfortunate) slice of realism. As it stands, accumulating religions doesn't really seem to be much of a problem, and you can just amass religious buildings that stack their values regardless of your state religion or even the complete lack of one.

Dominance and Separatism
Another frequent cause for rebellion was the one we're most familiar with: objection to being dominatde by a larger empire. These revolts were usually led by local leaders but sometimes by peasants or town citizens and were aimed at throwing off the yoke of oppression as it were and becoming independent.

Nuff said... this is already represented well.

Social injustice, Foreigners, and Random Events
As distinct from disenfranchisement, it also happened that rebellions started because of perceived injustices. In one case, one of the guilds rose up against the ruler of a city-state for imprisoning one of their men after he'd murdered a man who was sleeping with his wife. They didn't deny he killed the man, but they figured he had every right to. Consequence of the revolt was that the man was released. Very limited goals in this case...

Another instance, this one involving foreigners, was caused when a French soldier in Sicily inappropriately grabbed a woman causing locals to rally to save the woman's virtue and that soldier got his come uppance... but so did several thousand other Frenchmen soldiers and civilian alike in a wave of violence and riots that spread across the island...

Both of these are instances of what I might call "random events". If these small, isolated instances had no occurred, the powder keg wouldn't have blown... still... while catalysts for rebellion, there were a lot of underlying causes that were what REALLY sparked these acts of violence


If jdog wants to keep the player on his toes ;) some random events causing rebellions that need to be dealt with could be a good idea... however, there should probably already be something the people want that could be used for negotiation.

Other interesting points:

Negotiation and Compromise

Perhaps the most impressive thing to me was how restrained the responses of the leaders were. Sometimes they were chased out of town. Sometimes they had enough troops to go in and break some heads. But many times, rebels got what they wanted, or at least some of what they wanted... to the point that revolt became a fairly common and legitimate means of getting concessions from the state.

This just emphasizes things I said before about non-violent means to deal with rebels... which means the rebels also have to have some kind of goal in mind. Obviously, separatists or those who just want the leader dead because of various grievances, will probably only be able to be stopped through force of arms. But there could and should be lesser degrees of revolt that can be handled diplomatically.

The Urban/Rural Rift

The other interesting tidbit was the fact that almost without deviation, a rebellion that took place in the city was not supported (and sometimes outright opposed) by the peasantry in the country. Rebellions by the peasantry were ignored or openly opposed by the bourgeois in the cities. Very rarely did they assist one another.

Anyway, this is just some of the stuff I've uncovered, and naturally, there's more to be added/suggested as I have not analyzed ancient rebellions such as Kadesh, Bar Khokba, etc. or more modern ones like the Zapatistas or something....


Also, I was thinking... since, jdog5000, you've said that you're going to optimize the code, does this mean that units will spawn regularly outside cities during revolts of my own cities like they do with rebellions from conquered lands? (They do spawn new units every turn, right? I wasn't just losing track of those that were spawned in the first place?) If this is the case, maybe we could reduce the amount of units that will initially spawn when your own cities rebel?
 
Nice and interesting informations, but the real question is: Where is jdog5000?
 
What are the best civics to have when using this mod to get a domination victory? I tried it with the Romans on Noble and my empire ended up crumbling back into disaray. I had the largest army and still could not hold on to my claimed possessions. This all started to occur in the mid 1800's.
 
Dom Pedro II said:
I did some research over the weekend at the library... I went to look up books on uprisings, revolts, rebellions, insurrections and any other trouble the people manage to get into. There's a lot of books on the subject, and the search continues, but I managed to bear some fruit...
Wow ... quite the library trip! Unfortunately a lot of those things are difficult to model, like inter-civ (or intra? internal) conflicts there just isn't much to work with. And we only have cities, so the whole peasant/city difference is out too (although there will be slave rebellions in the next version =) ). But a lot of thoughs things are in there to certain degrees. One I'm thinkin about is, when a city is starving the rev index shoots up, but right now they'll complain about something else ... anyone have any good ideas for what they could ask for? You can't really give them food ... you could give them money to import food I guess, but I'm not sure whether it's possible to represent a temporary food bonus or something. Other ideas?

The tax rate thing is something I find frankly lacking in the base game ... you should be able to take a bigger or lesser cut of the commerce in your empire. But it's a slippery slope ... you start into that, and then you might not be happy without complicated boom and bust economic models. If I wanted to roleplay Allen Greenspan I'd get a different game =P So, currently when your "taxes" are too high (ie you're spending <=60% on sci or culture combines), your cities will become restless (quickly if you also have no money) ... but there's no particular "high taxes" revolution. I guess that kinda works with your straw that broke the camels back comment, as they'll complain about something else.

Certainly a lot of great food for thought ... thanks! What do other people think about random events? It's certainly something that could be done (would happen after warlords changes) ... but do you all feel it would be fun? I have to say, I thought about making a potential negative to spawning great people ... that one in 8 or so would have their own greatness go to their head and turn around and try and take you out! Interesting, but I didn't think it'd be enjoyable ... people plan for the GP.

Anyway, random events ... yea or nea?


Dom Pedro II said:
Also, I was thinking... since, jdog5000, you've said that you're going to optimize the code, does this mean that units will spawn regularly outside cities during revolts of my own cities like they do with rebellions from conquered lands? (They do spawn new units every turn, right? I wasn't just losing track of those that were spawned in the first place?) If this is the case, maybe we could reduce the amount of units that will initially spawn when your own cities rebel?
Actually, right now they span in one clump ... if they last long enough, you might see another clump form (after you reject a second popup), but other than that it's all at once. The reason I chose this approach is that, well it's easier and also that it give the rebels much more of a chance. A trickle of units coming at you will never amount to anything, but a decent sized stack at once could break through.

They do get reinforcements when they capture a city that recently rebelled in their favor, so that kind of simulates more rebels coming out of the woodwork once things get rolling (also helps them defend a city they just took from impending counter attack).

Thoughts/suggestions certainly welcome ...
 
Caesium said:
And the next problem: At level noble and better there are the revolt messages in turn 1 or turn 2. A little bit early in the game, isn't it?
Sorry, missed the question with the page flip ... no, this shouldn't be happening. There may have been an issue with older versions (can't remember whether I caught it before releasing or not) where the game speed adjustments for rev index accumulation were whacked out. (For those of you keeping score at home, all the mod Python files are initialized when the Civ4 starts ... at that time there is no game speed, as you haven't selected a game speed yet. So, now the game speed modifier is calculated later ...). I've tried Quick, Normal, Epic, and Marathon and not seen this with the current version, and almost always test above Noble (AI builds more units, it's more interesting). If this is with the latest version ... are you using custom game lengths? Do you get it all the time, or just randomly? Got a save?

suspendinlight said:
Working on the Warlords version of course.
:D Finishing up some Python changes, will release those (so still 1.61 only), and then start the Warlords SDK transition ... apparently there's going to be a patch at some point, but I doubt it'll be timely :( . And between Warlords version merging should be really easy, so I'll only put this off if it's clear the patch is immenent. If anyone has any info on when this could be happening, please post.
 
Justinian519 said:
What are the best civics to have when using this mod to get a domination victory? I tried it with the Romans on Noble and my empire ended up crumbling back into disaray. I had the largest army and still could not hold on to my claimed possessions. This all started to occur in the mid 1800's.
Definitely a good question, I'll post more in depth tomorrow. Short answer: avoid Theocracy if you've got multi-cities, avoid unhappiness at all costs. If at peace, uni suff or rep will definitely help. Large armies (in your cities) and high culture rates also are good. It can be done, I've even seen the AI own 40%+ world area =) More later ...
 
jdog5000 said:
Sorry, missed the question with the page flip ... no, this shouldn't be happening. There may have been an issue with older versions (can't remember whether I caught it before releasing or not) where the game speed adjustments for rev index accumulation were whacked out. (For those of you keeping score at home, all the mod Python files are initialized when the Civ4 starts ... at that time there is no game speed, as you haven't selected a game speed yet. So, now the game speed modifier is calculated later ...). I've tried Quick, Normal, Epic, and Marathon and not seen this with the current version, and almost always test above Noble (AI builds more units, it's more interesting). If this is with the latest version ... are you using custom game lengths? Do you get it all the time, or just randomly? Got a save?
Sorry I've got no save for this. But, while working on my mod, I added some custom game speeds and custom map sizes, and I added your latest version (in a multilanguage version).
If you want to check my code, Here you'll find it. You should also get the patch, because some major and minor bugs in the mod are corrected with this.
If you'd like to adopt the translation, feel free to do this.
 
jdog5000 said:
And we only have cities, so the whole peasant/city difference is out too (although there will be slave rebellions in the next version =) ).

Well... not necessarily. I'm not saying you should implement it, but you could have urban rebels actually take control of the cities right off the bat... maybe push the civ's soldiers out into an empty tile like they do when you have a culture flip. And in cases of peasant revolt, continue doing what you have with the rebellion spawning out in the country and then they have to take a city.

And then there's the fun counterinsurgency in the urban/provincial rift to think about :D

But a lot of thoughs things are in there to certain degrees. One I'm thinkin about is, when a city is starving the rev index shoots up, but right now they'll complain about something else ... anyone have any good ideas for what they could ask for? You can't really give them food ... you could give them money to import food I guess, but I'm not sure whether it's possible to represent a temporary food bonus or something. Other ideas?

Well, one of the ideas I've had has to do with fusing together this mod with c.fe's Generic Fantasy Modcomp and creating a national food storage that would be used to maintaining troops in the field... there's been a lot of talk lately about implementing a supply system of some sort... so with that you could decide between feeding the people or feeding your troops... and you'd get a prompt asking if you'd be willing to ease up on grain tribute demands and/or release some of the grain from the national storage.

However, that's not something I expect YOU to do since that would go beyond the scope of your mod.

I wish you could set up a foodstuff trade route like you could in Civ2. That would work perfectly. I dunno if you played Civ2, but they had Caravan units that manually set up trade routes that would "trade" commodities eventhough there actually were no resources in Civ2. But among other things you could use the Caravans for was to dump a load of shields (hammers now) into the city's production to speed up the construction of things like Wonders. And they could also transfer food from the Caravan's home city to the destination city... so that every turn the home city would yield -1 Food and the destination city would yield +1 Food. And you could just keep sending in Caravans and boost a city's food supply considerably.

I feel like there's got to be a way to do that where you'd have Food yield per turn subtracted from a city and added to another.

The tax rate thing is something I find frankly lacking in the base game ... you should be able to take a bigger or lesser cut of the commerce in your empire. But it's a slippery slope ... you start into that, and then you might not be happy without complicated boom and bust economic models. If I wanted to roleplay Allen Greenspan I'd get a different game =P So, currently when your "taxes" are too high (ie you're spending <=60% on sci or culture combines), your cities will become restless (quickly if you also have no money) ... but there's no particular "high taxes" revolution. I guess that kinda works with your straw that broke the camels back comment, as they'll complain about something else.

Well, currently, you take 100% of the total commerce of your civilization. Basically, in Civ, the state runs everything even without State Property. I don't necessarily agree that adding a tax rate would be a slippery slope to a boom/bust economy set up (since there's already booms and busts as far as I'm concerned since I go from being rich to broke sometimes when I have to spend a lot of gold or devote commerce to Science or Culture). But I do agree that excessive economic micromanagement would be a bad thing.

Certainly a lot of great food for thought ... thanks! What do other people think about random events? It's certainly something that could be done (would happen after warlords changes) ... but do you all feel it would be fun? I have to say, I thought about making a potential negative to spawning great people ... that one in 8 or so would have their own greatness go to their head and turn around and try and take you out! Interesting, but I didn't think it'd be enjoyable ... people plan for the GP.

Anyway, random events ... yea or nea?

Well, if you merged in TheLopez's randomized GP's, then you wouldn't have to worry about that problem... I think that this should also be somewhat limited to Great Generals since I can't see Great Artists seizing power... but they could end up leading some kind of popular movement. And Great Prophets... forget about it... all they do is make trouble ;)

As for random events, I'd say that they should never be the deciding factor, but if things are already bad, they would be good as a catalyst. In the same way that I'd like to see random international events that could potentially provide a pretext for war but that would not have any impact if you've got good relations with the offending/offended party.

Actually, right now they span in one clump ... if they last long enough, you might see another clump form (after you reject a second popup), but other than that it's all at once. The reason I chose this approach is that, well it's easier and also that it give the rebels much more of a chance. A trickle of units coming at you will never amount to anything, but a decent sized stack at once could break through.

They do get reinforcements when they capture a city that recently rebelled in their favor, so that kind of simulates more rebels coming out of the woodwork once things get rolling (also helps them defend a city they just took from impending counter attack).

Well, I guess I kind of just want a smaller initial clump and maybe more spawning each turn. It makes it just a little bit easier for me to react and is, IMO, more realistic. I mean, I understand the desire to make the rebellions more survivable, but they're honestly not going to survive against me anyway. I'll just take a little more time recapturing what they take.


Also... I dunno if this is implemented but I'd like to see some chances for trans-civilization rebellions. Basically, if Germany and England team up and dismantle France and then the French rise up in rebellion in the English-controlled cities, I'd like for their to be a chance for that rebellion to spread ot the German-controlled cities as well. That was certainly a problem for Prussia, Russia and Austria when they held Polish possessions. A rebellion in one country's piece might lead to rebellion in the other countries as well.

You might also want something like this even if it's not a defeated civ rising up... like maybe the border cities would want to split off together and form their own country... or maybe the Communists might rear their ugly head and touch off rebellions across several countries as part of some Workers of the World uniting or something. Might work with the slave rebellions as well. Btw.. slave rebellions: :goodjob:
 
Pardon the noob here, but I've a question..

I was trying this modpack, and a revolution happened in 3 of my cities including the home city. Actually, I was given the option to allow the revolution - and take control of the new CIV. I did this, and was given the 3 cities as a new player. But then, the turn seemed to hang. It continued to flash a message to the effect of "waiting on other civs", and I couldn't end my turn or return to the original civ either. I was stuck and had to kill the game. What was supposed to happen at that point, and did I do something wrong, like not know what keys to press? (been looking, haven't found any helpful instructions)..

Thanks
 
Also... I dunno if this is implemented but I'd like to see some chances for trans-civilization rebellions. Basically, if Germany and England team up and dismantle France and then the French rise up in rebellion in the English-controlled cities, I'd like for their to be a chance for that rebellion to spread ot the German-controlled cities as well.

I think this is already in there to some degree. In the game I'm playing right now, the irrepressible Egyptians, who had founded both Judiasm and Hinduism, were wiped out by various parts of my Buddhist coalition. :lol: Over the centuries, the Egyptians returned several times, one time starting in China and spreading to bits of Spanish lands BEFORE reclaiming the motherland in a fully swoop.

It was really interesting because an army of mine was heading over to help quash the Egyptian rebellion in China (in part because Hatty was born furious with me) when all of a sudden the territory I was travelling through became Egyptian :eek: My army was caught in a pass and massacred.

I'm actually going back to the game right now. What's really cool is seeing the power graph in it. There's an awful lot of rising and falling.
 
aelfwyne said:
Pardon the noob here, but I've a question..

I was trying this modpack, and a revolution happened in 3 of my cities including the home city. Actually, I was given the option to allow the revolution - and take control of the new CIV. I did this, and was given the 3 cities as a new player. But then, the turn seemed to hang. It continued to flash a message to the effect of "waiting on other civs", and I couldn't end my turn or return to the original civ either. I was stuck and had to kill the game. What was supposed to happen at that point, and did I do something wrong, like not know what keys to press? (been looking, haven't found any helpful instructions)..

Thanks
There was a problem like this in earlier versions (basically, you're given control of the new civ but then the isHuman flag isn't set ...), but that was fixed. This was with the most recent version? If you have a save (maybe an autosave?) from a few turns before, that'd be great. But regardless, it's not your fault ...
 
Clear out your cache! Delete folder (username)\Application Data\My Games\Sid's CivIV\cache.

I can't find this folder, please help me with this. Anymore specific you can get or anything? The game is installed to the H drive and under Program Files (X86), all other installation of files are defult. So where would it be?
 
I was thinking about it, and I was thinking that it might be interesting and useful for the rebellion to have spies that are created when a rebellion begins... I'm not sure if you'd want to spawn one or two right inside the main civ's capital city and scatter some around... possibly in the stack of rebel units... So this would represent the acts of sabotage, terror and just otherwise the wreaking of havoc by rebel infiltrators that usually accompanies any revolt or rebellion.

Now... I'm not particularly sure that the AI knows how to use Spies however... I've never seen them do it. And I would also not recommend using just the standard Spy unit as it would look a little funky in earlier eras and should maybe be some other unit... there's plenty to choose from these days. And call it Infiltrator like Sevo's mod or something like that.

Or disregard this idea entirely :)
 
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