Revolution: with BarbarianCiv, Rebellion, AIAutoPlay

[jdog5000]

The additional components proposals seems to have stirred up a lot of opinions, so I think I'll clarify how I currently view the future of this mod.

As stated, the goal of this mod is make the Civ4 more dynamic, with civs rising and falling through out the course of the game. Particularly, these changes will fit into the broader framework of Revolution: internal strife brining down over extended players, while highly unified civs are able to draw in new territory. All the changes I plan to make here fit into this broad category, with the next big ideas being spy missions to influence other civs and inquisitors to bring unity to your own. All new components released with this mod will be configurable and balanced as well as I can manage.

For features beyond this general framework, I will largely leave that to other modders to build big composites as they see fit. I will be making several changes to this mod to make it easier to combine with other mods, including moving all revolution text to an XML file and moving away from using CvCity script data for storing rev indices etc.

With this in mind, new ideas or existing components that fit into this framework are always welcome. Many of the current features are from or adapted from ideas that have been posted here, so more ideas, even crazy, complicated ideas that will never get implemented, are always welcome ... they may evolve and percolate into great new features.

 

[suspendinlight]

Suspendinlight it is not clear if are you basing your opinion on principles or the fear of the MOD-components being added would harm the gaming experience for you. Would you care to elaborate?

There's not much to it. The Revolution modpack should only contain mods directly related to the Revolution theme. I don't necessarily like the changes in the Tech Cost mod for example. Someone else may not like the changes in the UN mod that I use. Therefore, since it is so easy to add smaller mods into Revolution, these unrelated mods should be added by the individual.

Just out of curiosity, what MODs are you using and what adjustments have you made Sid Meier’s Civilization IV Revolutions. You might just inspire me

In addition to Revolution w/24 civs, I'm using the Ethnically Diverse Units Mod, the UN Mod, the Diplomacy Text mod, and a couple interface mods that make it more functional. I have also made some changes to barbs making them much more common and removing all bonuses (AI & human) against them. Since these changes make the GW much more valuable, I increased its cost. I made Jungle, Ice, and Desert impassable to early military units and scouts to avoid the "I have explored the whole world by 200 BC" problem. I increased the cost of settlers to balance the initial civs' (see below) advantage from an earlier start. My setup is 9 civs starting on a large Techtonics map, the civs are China, Korea, Rome, Carthage, Egypt, Persia, India, Greece, and the Celts to represent the earliest actual civilizations. Then I let the BarbarianCiv mod churn out some new civs as time goes by and there's the potential for some near historic events to occur (Germanic tribes wiping out Celts/Romans, Arabs bringing down the Persian empire, in my current game the Mongols rebelled against the Koreans very early on and took half their empire...). That's the set up that's keeping me entertained at the moment, but I tweak things after every game.

 

[Naokaukodem]

jdog5000, do you plan to change or add to the revolution parameter that is happiness a culture parameter? Like in this idea: (first part only)http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4312006&postcount=1 . I learned that the culture mixing system were already implemented in Civ4, so just take care to the rebellion, civ merging and diplomacy parts and the fact that all that is linked to one thing: culture rather than bare happiness.

I think that culture mixing would have to be re-arranged a little bit.

If the idea pleases to you, feel free to ask questions or precisions.

 

[korn469]

here's an idea for your mod...

Anyways, I was thinking of solid, deterministic ways to implement insurgency into the game. I think that resistors and unhappy citizens should generate insurgency points which use similar game mechanics to great people points. Each resistor should generate 3 insurgency points per turn, and each unhappy citizen should generate 1 insurgency point per turn. Early guerilla units should cost 20 insurgency points, and later guerilla units should cost more. The population percentages should determine the nationality of the guerilla unit. If a French controlled city had ten citizens, 3 French, 5 English, and 2 German, then the guerilla would a 71% chance of being English, and a 29% chance of being German (ignore the French population and divide the English and German populations by the total amount of non French population). Once a city hit the insurgency point level, then a guerrilla unit would spawn on a random tile in the city's fat cross. Unlike great people, guerilla units would have a fixed insurgency point cost.

Some possible stats (obviously we should balance it depending on gameplay)

Rebel -> Hunting 20 Insurgency points 1 Strength 1 Move Woodsman I/Guerilla I/Commando/20% Withdrawal chance 1 First strikes

Guerilla Monarchy 25 Insurgency points 2 Strength 1 Move Woodsman I/Guerilla I/Commando/30% Withdrawal chance 2 First stikes

Partisan Nationalism 30 Insurgency Points 4 Strength 1 Move Woodsman I/Guerilla I/Commando/40% Withdrawal chance 3 First strikes Causes collateral damage

Insurgent Fission 35 Insurgency Points 6 Strength 2 Move Woodsman I/Guerilla I/Commando/50% Withdrawal chance 4 First strikes Causes collateral damage

These should be weak units, capable of defeating lone weakened regular army units 1on1, or taking out small groups of regular army units if they have vastly superior numbers. They should be good at scouting, pillaging, and hit&run attacks. They should exist to cause chaos behind the lines, along with tying down military units in occupation duty.

At the begining stages of an occupation when there are large numbers of resistors lots of guerillas would take to the fight. If that same city size ten city started out as 10 resistors then that would be 30 insurgency points per turn, or 1 partisan per turn. As the French pacified the population, and decreased the resitors from 10 down to 5, then it would would take two turns for a partisan to appear. As the resistence started to fade, and only one resistor remained, then it would take 10 turns for a partisan to appear. If by the end, the French only had to deal with one unhappy citizen then it would take a full thirty turns for a partisan to appear.

Certain wonders like Manchu Picchu or the Ho Chi Mihn Trail could increase the number of Insurgency points generated each turn. A starving city should also generate more Insurgency Points than a non straving city. A whole line of special asymetrical warfare promotions might be in order for guerilla units.

Basic mod parts that I need which I can't create myself

*A way of creating and keeping track of insurgency points in cities
*A way to convert those insurgency points into actual fighting units on the map
*A way of linking wonders to insurgency point creation
*A way of implementing a hidden nationality flag so insurgents could still attack even if two civs have signed a peacy treay (the only solution may be for insurgents to have a barbarian nationality)
*Each non state religion in a city generates 1 insurgency point
*Certain civics should generate insurgency points
*Foreign citizens would increase insurgency points
*If a city was in a golden age it wouldn't generate insurgency points
*Certain wonders should generate pacification points
*Certain civics would generate pacification (anti-insurgency points)
*Happy citizens would generate pacification point

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

These are some pretty cool ideas Korn. The way I see it, it shouldn't be too hard to adapt the existing Great Person OR Great General system in the game to our needs here. The secret may involve picking apart CvCity.cpp to find out where resistors are created, and add new arguments to the file which allow resistors to behave like 'specialists' (it could be done in the python equivalent, but that seems like more of a 'hack job' to me ). Once we have done this, then it should be possible to tease out the Great General 'generator', and convert it to a new Insurgency generator (I am going to be doing a similar kind of thing by creating a new Ideology system based along the lines of religion!)
Anyway, I would offer to help, but I am both in the depths of my current civics mod AND I am still way too much of a novice to try anything this grand. However, if I stumble across the relevent code in my modding, I will be sure to let you know .

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[idle]

jdog5000:
great mod, and something sorely missed in the core game.

But;

I've only tried it once last night (v0.6a vanilla), and it was pretty unbalancing.

Ca.1000BC - I've got 4 cities up (as cathy/prince diff/small tectonic map/marathon speed) and just managed to hook up iron (no bronze in sight), and I had 14 warriors in my entire kingdom.

Then Frederick unites the German barbarians. 'Cool', I thought, but was then shocked to see that he'd built a city just 10 tiles from my capital. That's ok, but when he had 8 swordsmen, 4 axemen and 3 archers inside it, and a thirst for war, I really didn't stand a chance. 12 turns later my capital fell, then my second city, and then I just managed to cling on to my production city by rushing a few axemen.

Surprise, surprise; now Monty declares on me (he was on the other side of my cities). Needless to say, I'm toast.

I haven't read the entire thread, but isn't this a bit much (at least on prince difficulty)?

 

[Dom Pedro II]

I've never had this kind of early-game attack happen personally... I guess I've just been lucky up to this point.

But I think that the kind of units a new civ gets should be somewhat based on the resources they have available certainly... I mean, Archers don't require any resources... so having them get Archers works well especially since then they can at least defend their cities. And if they have workers when they spawn, they can connect a supply of iron, bronze or horses relatively quickly provided they're in there area.

I agree though... it's not right for a big army to magically appear and attack you.

 

[suspendinlight]

There is an INI file where you can tweak these sort or things. I thought the size of barb civs militaries was too small so I increased it by 80%. Just change this line in your INI file or shut the barb civ feature off altogether.

; Affects number of (non-defense) military units given to barbs
MilitaryStrength = 1.0

 

[jdog5000]

jdog5000:
great mod, and something sorely missed in the core game.

But;

I've only tried it once last night (v0.6a vanilla), and it was pretty unbalancing.

I haven't read the entire thread, but isn't this a bit much (at least on prince difficulty)?

I haven't done much testing on Marathon, but a few people have complained that for that game speed the barb civs seem over powered early on. Part of the problem is the length of time it takes you to build up defenses if you get caught unprepared. The newer Warlords versions of the mod addressed this a little bit, reducing the number of units the barb civs get when they spawn early and with several cities. But as suspendinlight said, you're basically a victim of a unusually early barb settling ...

I've never had this kind of early-game attack happen personally... I guess I've just been lucky up to this point.

But I think that the kind of units a new civ gets should be somewhat based on the resources they have available certainly... I mean, Archers don't require any resources... so having them get Archers works well especially since then they can at least defend their cities. And if they have workers when they spawn, they can connect a supply of iron, bronze or horses relatively quickly provided they're in there area.

I agree though... it's not right for a big army to magically appear and attack you.

The barb cities are (almost always) completely undeveloped so the new civs never actually have access to resources when they start up. To make them dangerous, I have to give them units that technically they can't build. I could make what units they get depend on the surrounding terrain and nearby resources, but an invasion of archers seems lame.

One possibility would be to provide a warning that some cities were about to settle down ... you'd only get it if you could see one of the cities in question. But really this should be going through your mind anyway when you see barb cities forming near you borders.

 

[jdog5000]

jdog5000, do you plan to change or add to the revolution parameter that is happiness a culture parameter? Like in this idea: (first part only)http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4312006&postcount=1 . I learned that the culture mixing system were already implemented in Civ4, so just take care to the rebellion, civ merging and diplomacy parts and the fact that all that is linked to one thing: culture rather than bare happiness.

I think that culture mixing would have to be re-arranged a little bit.

If the idea pleases to you, feel free to ask questions or precisions.

Culture definitely is taken into account now, and after Nationalism is discovered and the effects of religion start to wane, it's probably the second most powerful revolution factor to unhappiness. I've seen people propose spreading culture on trade routes in addition to the current model, but haven't followed closely.

 

[jdog5000]

here's an idea for your mod...

Basic mod parts that I need which I can't create myself

*A way of creating and keeping track of insurgency points in cities
*A way to convert those insurgency points into actual fighting units on the map
*A way of linking wonders to insurgency point creation
*A way of implementing a hidden nationality flag so insurgents could still attack even if two civs have signed a peacy treay (the only solution may be for insurgents to have a barbarian nationality)
*Each non state religion in a city generates 1 insurgency point
*Certain civics should generate insurgency points
*Foreign citizens would increase insurgency points
*If a city was in a golden age it wouldn't generate insurgency points
*Certain wonders should generate pacification points
*Certain civics would generate pacification (anti-insurgency points)
*Happy citizens would generate pacification point

If you're looking for some code to build from, my code computes the revolution index for each city every turn, and adds up the positive and negative effects. It works similarly to your idea actually, but with some different factors and instead of spitting out an insurgent here are there, it builds up to larger revolutions ... but it would make a good model if you wanted to dive into the code.

 

[Kenric af Grashen]

can i just say this is one of the best mods i've played! not sure if its already been said but i think you should make it so improvements like Broadcast towers decrease chance of rebellion or maybe wonders like the internet

 

[Quijote]

I have done a lot of brainstorming and based on my previous work I have written this small suggestion to what feature I currently consider to be the most important feature to add. The purpose of this Sid Meier’s Civilization IV Revolution is: [Said by Jdog500] The goal of this modpack is to make Civ4 more dynamic. New empires will rise in the middle of the game, over-extended empires may crumble, or colonies break away from oppressive rulers. Currently new empires only emerge based on negative factors. Based on history this is a narrow way of looking at the dynamics of the birth of new civilization, and thus I suggest letting civilizations form federations.

Federations Will:
Create a more dynamical gaming experience:
One of the major problems with Sid Meier's Civilization IV is that if you are the strongest empire at the beginning of the game it is likely that you will be the strongest at the end of the game. This will often make the game very static and predictable. Sid Meier’s Civilization IV Revolution does help patch this problem to a little extent, but the game has yet to become what it could be.
Create a more natural and historically accurate game:
Federations have always been a very important part of history. Most major conflicts, which has occurred thru out history, has had at least one federation involved, be it the Second World War or the Cold War. Federations are not a new thing either, they have been formed hundreds of years ago.

Definition of a Federation In The Game:
Rise:
3 or more civilizations that share similar civics, religion, continent and open borders might form a federation.
The leader of the largest civilization to merge becomes the leader of the new federation.
The new federation is given one of the following names: United States of America, United States of Europe, Soviet Union, Kalmar Union or Union of Myanmar.
Fall:
If [revolution index] surpasses 1000 in a city the federation falls.
If the federation falls the civilizations that formed the federation will reemerge and seize the cities they owned before the federation was created. New cities that are build or captured by the federation will become a randomly picked civilization that are located nearby.

Further Reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation

Feedback would be appreciated.

EDIT:
Oh and Caesium that is not a bad idea.

 

[wolfigor]

Hi jdog5000, in first THANK YOU!
your mod was something deeply missed in the game.
I had great time reading the thread and playing with your mod.
It adds deepness to the game...when you think things are getting safe and stable, something new can bring a huge change in the equilibrium.

For example 3 events from my last match:

In my last match (using your mod v0.7w, huge fractal, monarch) I was in a continent together with Alexander and Saladin.
I expand a lot with my settlers (I was Julius C.) and I dominate the central-south part of the continent.
.1.
I had 2 religions in my empire ... the stress of overexpansion + 2 religions started to create trobles in some of my towns.
As suggested by the popup i turned that "tension" on the arabs... my pretorians conquered all their towns and when finally I had only the last defender in the last town to obliterate.... my countrymen asked for elections!
Pay or accept a clean vote?
I went for the clean vote and I got 15 turns AI administrated.
the war was won anyway by my "deputy" and after 15 turns I had to readjust production queues and army balancing.
For some players it may be frustrating... but I got it as an extra challenge, it was real fun (ok... on the moment I cursed everything coming up to my mind... but that's part of the game).

.2.
Few centuries later, same continent now divided between me and Alexander.
We are rather friendly to each other, but he plagued by a lot of jungle and barbarians (I built the great wall).
He has the almost all the north (imagine the continent as vertical rectangle very fat on the bottom) and I had all the south and good part of the centre.
There is a lonely barbarian town in the north west... it becomes the Germans (Bismark).
Alex didn't expect it and found a lot of enemies attacking his soft belly!
Years of peaceful expansion made his soldiers weak: he lost 3 or 4 towns before he was able to stop the Germans.
Unfortunate for him especially because I watched the war until the two armies were exausted (in the meantime I built a wonderful war machine)... at the end I eliminated the Germans and later on my old Greek friend.

.3.
In a near continent the russians (good friends of mine) are at war with the Korean (not good friends) and they ask me to participate.
I alredy have one town on the continent (west coast), the Korean are at north east (inland).
On the coast west of the Koreans there is a barbarian town.
I move my expedition force to conque the nearest Korean town.
Job done... continue to the next... Korean counter attack... defend, waiting for reinforcements to land near the barbarian town (planned to be destroyed in the process).
when my ships where almost there 1 (2 turns max), the barbarian became Babylonians with Cyrus.... instead on a military civ I got a builder one... cool I think... but evidently they got a great artist with them!!!
They culture bomb ther town and envelope with culture the town the I just conquered plus the direct road to my colony on the continent)... damn... again a change of strategy and be very friendly with Cyrus to get, at least, a free passage for my reinforcements.


well... 3 different events al funny... at least one was really good for me the other 2 a bit less.

event 1.
I may have avoided it, with some change of policy, but I didn't.
So I got 15 turns with the AI looking onto my empire. Fortunately he continued a policy or rebuilding after the war, so not too far from what I would have done... maybe I was lucky... but there wasn't so much more for the AI to do.
At least he didn't wage war to anybody in the meantime.

Event 2.
Very good that happened to Alexander... but it's very disruptive.
If it happens in the wrong moment it's hell on your empire.
With your mod better to kill every barbarian town in sight of your border, it's far too dangerous if they develope in an ostyle civ.
Does the AI understand it?

Event 3.
In general I think it's everything ok for builders civ... it was just in the very special case that their cultre bomd created problems.
if it happened near my homeland it woukdn't have had a huge impact (I always keep one culture bomb ready for special occasions).

In general great mod... it need a bit of flexibility in the human player to adapt to more events.
Your mod brings a mutability and dynamic that was missing in CIVIV: it was far too easy to follow a fixed plan to win, with your mod we are forced to a bit more of improvvisation.

 

[Ferrum Rex]

Hey i dl'd the 49 civ amra compilation modpack,just thought id mention(since i cant seem to find a specific thread) that when i defeat an enemy at times,i will recieve the enemy as my own unit. funny thefirst time it happend was with a lion.

This mod is soo good,that i feel little desire to play any other mod or scenario. Thanks alot Jdog you've all but ruined my experince on the forums. i can no longer find fun in sarching for a new scenario to check out. thanks alot

 

[Chukka]

Hi!
I love your mod. I played a LAN game using the Amravolution mod with my friend. Everytime a revolution happened the game would go out of sync. That was the only problem we had but it happened every time.

One more thing. It should be made more clear why my cities are revolting and I think we should have an option to do what they demand. Like if they said that they want a temple, we should be given an option to build a temple.

 

[Caesium]

Will there be a limiting number for new civs from barbs? Also on small maps there are up to ten Civs... quite a little bit too much...

 

[SaintMatthew]

hi -- is this the right place to ask a question about the very excellent amravolution modpack (I can't find a separate thread).

If so, here it goes: I want to change the city radius back to 2 squares from 3 squares. I tried editing GlobalDefinesAlt.xml in the directory Warlords/Mods/Amra's.../Assets/XML/ but found that the value for the min city radius is already listed as 2, unlike in Amra's V2, where it is listed as 3.

So I played around with it a bit more (lowered it to 1, and then to 0) but no dice. Any suggestions? Please keep in mind that my tech abilities are limited at best (as is probably clear from my lame attempts at fixing the problem myself).

Thx in advance for any help. And thx to all who help put together the fantastic modpack.

 

[junter]

I haven't done much testing on Marathon, but a few people have complained that for that game speed the barb civs seem over powered early on. Part of the problem is the length of time it takes you to build up defenses if you get caught unprepared. The newer Warlords versions of the mod addressed this a little bit, reducing the number of units the barb civs get when they spawn early and with several cities. But as suspendinlight said, you're basically a victim of a unusually early barb settling ...


The barb cities are (almost always) completely undeveloped so the new civs never actually have access to resources when they start up. To make them dangerous, I have to give them units that technically they can't build. I could make what units they get depend on the surrounding terrain and nearby resources, but an invasion of archers seems lame.

One possibility would be to provide a warning that some cities were about to settle down ... you'd only get it if you could see one of the cities in question. But really this should be going through your mind anyway when you see barb cities forming near you borders.

Will you make in this mod the spy that can steal a technology from an rival civilizations that can be used from also by I.A. others Civilizations ?

 

[Zarco]

Hey, well i installed the mod today, it looks great, liked what it adds to the game. My first game was a mess. I lost my capitol and another city(i only had 3) then the 3rd one rebels and i choose to play as new civ. But the city appears as city ruins, not as a city with a name. How do you fix this?