Ribbentrop-Beck Pact - should Poland ally with III Reich

And Himmler was his subordinate. Therein lies your trouble.

True,but some could argue he was running alot of the "background" stuff,had his own base of operations even,,,

all speculation,but the Castle is real...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI79BgmrlPA

Plus Hitler really never gave much thought to his Staff/General's opinions since he was so high all the time....:lol:
 
My puzzlement is more at the idea that borders can be "natural" to begin with. Borders exist between polities, and polities are wholly unnatural.

Borders can be "natural" - this can be proven a contrario from the fact, that borders can be "artificial" (the best example are African states).
 
Also borders between territorial self-government units can be "artificial" - for example when you ignore geography and infrastructure, but also various links between neighbouring local communities (economic, cultural, etc.). The same can apply to states of course, but to smaller extent because most states throughout history have simply wanted to grab as much land as possible - not paying so much attention to shape of borders, rather to how much territory was inside them.
 
True,but some could argue he was running alot of the "background" stuff,had his own base of operations even,,,

all speculation,but the Castle is real...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI79BgmrlPA

Plus Hitler really never gave much thought to his Staff/General's opinions since he was so high all the time....:lol:
What? Hitler wasn't a drug addict. You're thinking of Goering. And Hitler allowed Himmler a lot of leeway. He was more than willing to crack down on him when he needed to, such as Himmler's forced euthanasia program involving the mentally ill in Germany.

Borders can be "natural" - this can be proven a contrario from the fact, that borders can be "artificial" (the best example are African states).
The correct term would be "imposed borders." not artificial, though it is, unfortunately, commonly used.
 
Through all the meanderings of this thread, I have learned some interesting stuff about Yaroslav, Lukashenko, Belarus 1918, etc. Thanks everyone!

I'm really looking forward to playing Poland when Dawn of Civilization 1.10 comes out....
 
Hmmm. Ironically if not the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact I would never be born. Nor would my father.

Neither would I.

One of my ancestors was on the train heading to Katyn with all the other elites of Polish society, he somehow got off the train near Lomza or Bialystok or someplace and got married shortly thereafter.
 

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Here is an interesting German propaganda poster from July 1939:
Propaganda? Looks more like satire/caricature to me. The caption reads "Auf falschem Kurs" ("On the wrong course"), by the way.
 
Maybe Leoreth can translate?
I'll try my best, but if you have them in higher resolution it would be helpful, Fraktur is hard enough to figure out as it is. I really like Kladderadatsch by the way (pre WW1 that is).

Am politischen Sternenhimmel wurde eine eigenartige Erscheinung beobachtet. Einer der Trabanten, die um den Planeten Frankreich kreisen, geriet aus der Bahn, sichtlich angezogen durch den seit 1933 erschienen Fixstern Deutschland.

"A strange event has been observed in the political firmament. One of the satellites orbiting the planet France sheered out of orbit, evidently attracted by the fixed star Germany that appeared in 1933."

And 1935:

Überwundene Vorurteile [can't figure out what the subtitle says]: 'Siehst du, Marinka, die lassen sich auch nicht durch das Geschrei des Gockels stören.'

"Overcome prejudices: 'See, Marinka, they aren't bothered by the rooster's clamor either.'"

Another poster from 11 June 1939:

Der Geist Pilsudskis [???]: Bei der Politik hätte ich die Schlacht bei Warschau niemals schlagen können!

"Pilsudski's ghost: 'With that kind of politics I never would have been able to fight the Battle of Warsaw!'"

I'm curious what the small print below the titles says.
 
There's no Kresy. It was Russian land all the way, with Russian people living there.

Russians were 0,3% of population there in 1921 and 0,9% in 1931:

Comparison of 1921 and 1931 censuses when it comes to ethnic composition of population of Kresy:

Data based on question about nationality from 1921 census and question about mother tongue from 1931 census:





And here map of ethnic Polish population according to 1916 German census (with % in each region shown):

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:M...skiej_z_uwzględnieniem_spisów_z_1916_roku.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...skiej_z_uwzględnieniem_spisów_z_1916_roku.jpg

And below a miniature of this map (the more red area = the bigger % of ethnic Poles):



===================================

So, to summ up, regarding this ethnic / language structure of population data which I posted above:

Population censuses from 1916 (German-Austrian), 1921 (Polish) and 1931 (Polish) - all of them show similar percentages of ethnic groups in each region, which proves their accuracy and reliability and denies false claims of Russian or German national chauvinists, who say that Poland carried out forced Polonization on large scale of the Kresy region between 1921 and 1931 - actually, as comparison of Polish censuses from 1921 and 1931 clearly shows - in some regions percentage of ethnic Poles was lower in 1931 than in 1921 (please also note that the 1921 census had question about nationality / ethnicity, while the 1931 had question about mother tongue).

On the other hand, Polish population estimation for Central Lithuania in 1920 (the Republic of Central Lithuania became part of Poland not before 1922 - so this area was not covered by the Polish 1921 population census) is most likely not very accurate - first of all, it seems that this estimation is overestimating the overall size of population of Central Lithuania, which in fact was most likely lower than 1,240,000. But censuses from 1921 and 1931 seem to be accurate - and correspond well with the German-Austrian census of 1916.

These two censuses (1921 and 1931) not only correspond well with the 1916 census, but also with each other.
 
Please note that this map is based on German and Austrian census from 1916.

Germans and Austrians had no reason to deliberately exaggerate the number of Polish population.

On the other hand, the Russian census from 1897 deliberately underestimated the number of Poles.

============================================

Regarding the city of Wilno and its ethnic Polish-Jewish character:

Ethnic Lithuanians (or rather Samogitians) were less than 1% in that city (even Russians were more numerous in Vilno).

But as even a user from Lithuania (who is a history guide) - Vilniusguide - admits here:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=98082930

Vilniusguide said:
Nice, so Vilnius is more Russian that Lithuanian then
May it be 2% or 0,8% or 14% in 1918 as according to Lithuanian statistics of that time, but judging only by spoken language, the capital of interwar Lithuania should be made Latvian Liepāja.
According to the 1897 census (Lithuanian language): Vilnius 2%, Kaunas 6%, Liepāja 7% and just before the war 1913 - Kaunas 15% Lithuanian and Liepāja - more than 21% Lithuanian. So it was something like the most Lithuanian city at that period of time.

So - to summ up - "the most Lithuanian" city in the world at that time - Liepaja (in Latvia) - had 7% of ethnic Lithuanian population (or 21% according to statistics made by Lithuanian nationalists, rather than original censuses - which said about 7% only).

In other words - ethnic Lithuanian-speakers (aka Samogitians) lived almost exclusively in the countryside.

And this applies both to territory of Lithuania and to other countries (like Poland and Latvia).

And why I write about ethnic Lithuanians in the 20th century "Samogitians"?

Becuase so called "Lithuanian national revival" took place mainly among Samogitians (and among some inhabitants of northern parts of Aukštaitija):

Samogitian national revival (this is how it was called in the 19th century - only later Samogitians called themselves "Lithuanians"):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_National_Revival

Majority of Lithuanians from other main historical regions of Litva - Aukštaitija (so called Lithuania Proper) and Dainava (Wileńszczyzna) - had been fully Polonized already for centuries, and not just nobility, but also townsmen and peasants.

This is why ethnic Poles (grand, grand, grand, grand... children of Polonized Lithuanians as well as numerous settlers from Poland, who settled in Litva already since the 1200s - the 13th century) were majority not only in cities, but also in the countryside in the Wilno Region.

And when it comes to other Lithuanian cities - Lithuanians were several percent of inhabitants in each of them. In all cities of the Lithuanian State - including its capital city Kaunas - Jews, Poles, Russians and Germans were dominant ethnic groups.And Wilno (Vilnius) had ethnic Polish majority, second most numerous group after Poles were Jews.

=====================================

There's no Kresy. It was Russian land all the way,

Fortunately modern inhabitants of these lands don't share this view and write books about Polish heritage of Kresy.

"155 Polish castles and palaces in Ukraine" and "315 Polish castles and palaces in Ukraine" (2nd volume), published in Kiev in 2011:



Map showing some of most important Polish castles and palaces in Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia, Russia and Estonia:



Map showing over 700 Polish 15th to 17th century (years 1400 - 1700) castles and fortifications in Southern Ukraine:

http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss355/schayer/zamkinaukrainienaforum2-1.jpg

Spoiler :

Many pictures can be found on Skyscrapercity forum, in Polish sub-forum:

"Remnants of Poland in Belarus" thread:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=472239

"Remnants of Poland in Ukraine" thread:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=866876

"Remnants of Poland in Lithuania and Latvia" thread:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=865650

Here I posted some pictures as well:

http://historum.com/european-histor...territories-32.html#post1504710?postcount=320

=================================

Eastern Galicia, Podolia and part of Volhynia were Polish already since the 1300s:

In the 1300s Polish parts of Volhynia were: Lands of Krzemieniec, Bełz, Chełm and Włodzimierz.

As for the Land of Drohiczyn (see Drohiczyn on the map below) - it was part of Poland until 1279:



And here about Polish autonomous districts in the Soviet Union:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzierzynszczyzna
 
Oh god did this thread explode into nonsense.

The peoples you speak of were neither Poles or Russians. Nationalist identities were not present at that point. Stop bickering nonsensibly about such arbitrary nonsense of identity.

I sincerely hope that what you're rabidly propagandizing about right now isn't what you're told within your universities, for if so, I weep for your intellectuals.
 
The peoples you speak of were neither Poles or Russians. Nationalist identities were not present at that point.
In XX century?
 
nono they were all over Vladislav III or Obskurislav XI or Polishnoblislav II drenched in salivae: "this proves my empire is an empire of cultural glorious history."
 
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