Noble Zarkon
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I'm a lurker here but would love you to expand on this or point me to a strategy article somewhere that explains this?
Thanks!
Rise of the Pasha [K-Mod]
- Thread starter Cam_H
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I'm a lurker here but would love you to expand on this or point me to a strategy article somewhere that explains this?
Thanks!
NobleZarkon,
Thanks for your interest in the game and for lurking!
lymond could probably explain this point better himself, however;
(a.) For reference I would point you to Absolute Zero's YouTube channel, where about half (if not more) of his games include using Cuirrassiers as the break-out unit of choice. Unfortunately I've not got a specific game in mind, but many of the earlier games he posted followed an almost identical tactical path that included a Cuirrassier rush. If someone has a particular game that works welll as an example, please advise.
(b.) The gist of lymond's point I believe is that Cuirrassiers don't have an obvious countering unit until Riflemen (they can go head-to-head with Formation-promoted War Elephants, Formation-promoted Pikes, highly promoted Janissaries, Grenadiers if the AI's that far) but still stand a good chance of survival ... helped by a natural withdrawal chance, and bolstered by Flanking promotions if you go down that path. Combat promotions work well because the base strength of the unit is so high. Because they get promotions with Stables, you can easily get Level 3 units out of the gate, and in our case, Heliopolis is churning out Level 4 units with the aid of The Heroic Epic.
The other point is the 2
nature of the unit. Cuirrassiers hit hard, but they also hit fast. Very little need to wait around for Trebuchets to catch up to the stack and grind down city defenses. Just suck up the losses, hope that you get a decent withdrawal rate, and throw the Cuirrassiers straight at the enemy cities. With enough preparation (e.g. building Horse Archers or War Elephants for upgrading) and serious whipping, decent Cuirrassier stacks can be slammed together fairly quickly. They move quickly across the enemy's empire and can pillage along the way as well. Occasionally they can catch enemy stacks in the field, and its a bonus if that stack contains Treb's or Cat's due to flanking damage.
I hope this helps, and I hope that I've adequately represented lymond's point. Thanks again for your interest.
Back on the game ...
Surely we can wait five turns to find out if Athens spawns a Great Scientist or not, especially if Printing Press isn't what we're intending to self research now?
Thanks for your interest in the game and for lurking!
lymond could probably explain this point better himself, however;
(a.) For reference I would point you to Absolute Zero's YouTube channel, where about half (if not more) of his games include using Cuirrassiers as the break-out unit of choice. Unfortunately I've not got a specific game in mind, but many of the earlier games he posted followed an almost identical tactical path that included a Cuirrassier rush. If someone has a particular game that works welll as an example, please advise.
(b.) The gist of lymond's point I believe is that Cuirrassiers don't have an obvious countering unit until Riflemen (they can go head-to-head with Formation-promoted War Elephants, Formation-promoted Pikes, highly promoted Janissaries, Grenadiers if the AI's that far) but still stand a good chance of survival ... helped by a natural withdrawal chance, and bolstered by Flanking promotions if you go down that path. Combat promotions work well because the base strength of the unit is so high. Because they get promotions with Stables, you can easily get Level 3 units out of the gate, and in our case, Heliopolis is churning out Level 4 units with the aid of The Heroic Epic.
The other point is the 2
nature of the unit. Cuirrassiers hit hard, but they also hit fast. Very little need to wait around for Trebuchets to catch up to the stack and grind down city defenses. Just suck up the losses, hope that you get a decent withdrawal rate, and throw the Cuirrassiers straight at the enemy cities. With enough preparation (e.g. building Horse Archers or War Elephants for upgrading) and serious whipping, decent Cuirrassier stacks can be slammed together fairly quickly. They move quickly across the enemy's empire and can pillage along the way as well. Occasionally they can catch enemy stacks in the field, and its a bonus if that stack contains Treb's or Cat's due to flanking damage.I hope this helps, and I hope that I've adequately represented lymond's point. Thanks again for your interest.
Back on the game ...
Surely we can wait five turns to find out if Athens spawns a Great Scientist or not, especially if Printing Press isn't what we're intending to self research now?
UnforcedError
Settler
LURKER COMMENT
Two of AZ's videos that immediately came to mind featuring (for the most part) cuir rushes: Zara Deity and Mansa Deity. Unfortunately I can't link in Lymond's video in his sig as he uses predominantly siege in that game. Still, great to watch Lymond, do you plan to make more videos?
END LURKER COMMENT
Two of AZ's videos that immediately came to mind featuring (for the most part) cuir rushes: Zara Deity and Mansa Deity. Unfortunately I can't link in Lymond's video in his sig as he uses predominantly siege in that game. Still, great to watch
Lymond, do you plan to make more videos?END LURKER COMMENT
Thank you so mutch for the links.
I'm watching mansa game since this morning (while working).
Well, the fantaput offencive (500 BC) was more impressive that cuirasser rush (1000AD) ^^ but at the player said: he should have went to cavalery rush instead at this date...
especialy against a pro AI... (well, that might be our case
)
I'm watching mansa game since this morning (while working).
Well, the fantaput offencive (500 BC) was more impressive that cuirasser rush (1000AD) ^^ but at the player said: he should have went to cavalery rush instead at this date...
especialy against a pro AI... (well, that might be our case
)
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@Zarkon - Yep, UE and Cam have hit on some good points. AZ's LPs are a good way to see Cur war in action. He utilizes them a lot in most of his Deity games that don't already have a preset type of warfare in mind (that is, sometimes he will demonstrate an HA rush or Xbow rush, etc). His Washington game is pretty funny as it was such a bad start. He loses a lot of Curs simply as he was fighting a major uphill battle, but it still shows the flexibility and power of the Cur.
As Cam mentioned, Curs or mounted units are about speed. Also, this is why Horse Archers are one of the best fighting forces in the game. 2 moves allow you to employ tactics that you simply can't use with 1 move units, with the exception of the underrated Gallic Warrior. Siege and other 1 move units are counter-intuitive to mounted warfare.
One tactic is forking. Moving your units in between cities to confuse the AI and draw out defenders. Allows you to weaken the enemy out in the field as opposed to lesser odds in the city. If one city appears heavily fortified at the moment you can simply move to a weakly defended city....take it or draw out units. Furthermore, it's much easier to surprise attack at the start - often taking one or two cities out on the first turn of war before the AI knows what happens. Using spies to lower defenses in large cities is also a good idea with mounted, but not necessary.
Curs are very effective and oft employed on higher difficulties as it is generally easy to get them online early enough that they are highly effective with little to no counters. They are the first effective unit that ignores both walls and first strikes.
@UE - Glad you liked my videos. I actually started recorded other videos but the recording software began to cap out. I was having serious audio sync issues which can be detected in some of my unfinished series. I've been meaning to try again on a newer machine but haven't gotten around to it. My one true goal is to do lower level tutorial style videos for new players, which really don't exist out there. (I don't think I even had horses is that Mehmed game)
astre - Well, keep in mind that AZ is playing on Deity. There's no doubt that a Cur war on Sal would be very successful and effective at this stage.
As Cam mentioned, Curs or mounted units are about speed. Also, this is why Horse Archers are one of the best fighting forces in the game. 2 moves allow you to employ tactics that you simply can't use with 1 move units, with the exception of the underrated Gallic Warrior. Siege and other 1 move units are counter-intuitive to mounted warfare.
One tactic is forking. Moving your units in between cities to confuse the AI and draw out defenders. Allows you to weaken the enemy out in the field as opposed to lesser odds in the city. If one city appears heavily fortified at the moment you can simply move to a weakly defended city....take it or draw out units. Furthermore, it's much easier to surprise attack at the start - often taking one or two cities out on the first turn of war before the AI knows what happens. Using spies to lower defenses in large cities is also a good idea with mounted, but not necessary.
Curs are very effective and oft employed on higher difficulties as it is generally easy to get them online early enough that they are highly effective with little to no counters. They are the first effective unit that ignores both walls and first strikes.
@UE - Glad you liked my videos. I actually started recorded other videos but the recording software began to cap out. I was having serious audio sync issues which can be detected in some of my unfinished series. I've been meaning to try again on a newer machine but haven't gotten around to it. My one true goal is to do lower level tutorial style videos for new players, which really don't exist out there. (I don't think I even had horses is that Mehmed game)
astre - Well, keep in mind that AZ is playing on Deity. There's no doubt that a Cur war on Sal would be very successful and effective at this stage.
·Imhotep·
Legendary Builder
I'm really sorry for neglecting this game. RL has sucked up my time unexpectedly unfortunately. You can either skip me or wait. I'll try to post the PPP and play as soon as I can if you decide on waiting. Sorry once more!
how long do we have to wait?
If you want, we can swap places.
It would only be my third game where i could be UP...
easy task
anyway, before imho or I would play, we need to know if we go for warfare or not.
I would be tempted because it is more fun and more rewarding but as var said, it would delayed our golden ages...
still undecided personnaly
If you want, we can swap places.
It would only be my third game where i could be UP...
easy task
anyway, before imho or I would play, we need to know if we go for warfare or not.
I would be tempted because it is more fun and more rewarding but as var said, it would delayed our golden ages...
still undecided personnaly
vranasm
Deity
well I didn't changed my mind in last 7 days (or how long we wait from L's TS)
Got some time tonight and may present the start of a plan.
For me, as i said, this game is won. we can win it in 10 turns with cuir or in 20 with cav...
As we need some turns to finish building the great people we need, i will delay the war at least for this 8 turns while continue to pump out superphants and will move the army into position in the south while have a limited border watch in the north.
This peacefull GA will enable me to focus on GP generation while a dual focus may be too mutch for my limited mind
so now that we speak of GPerson...
we have 3 GS (-1 for bulb) and 1 GP + 1GM from economy
next golden age will be triggered if possible by :
GS/GM/GA
GS/GM/GA/GP
GS/GM/GA/GP/other
We need : 1 GS, 2 GM, 3 GA, 1 GP and 1 other
I propose 5 cities for GP production:
istanbul 10 spe -> birth in 2 t will focus on GM
Athen 8 spe -> birth in 3-4t will focus on GA
elephantine 7-8 spe -> birth in 9-11t will focus on GP (build temples) + GA
Ankara 5 spe -> birth in more than 12 t
Erdine 4 +1 next turn -> long time shoot
in each case, the plan is to run max: spy, eng, priest and then max of art or merchant but no mixing.
I should leave the set last turn of GA with 3 GP gained (free GM included) and 5 in preparation within a short range.
We should continue GP generation with pacifism all time long until we have all we need.
For the rest, I propose the following:
Science: PP(1+GS bulb), guild (2), bank(2), economy (3)
civic: whip few stuffs, caste (T0), merchantilism (T5)
building order: follow vran advices previous page.
Army: keep a guard watch in argos (6-8 mixed units) and move everything else in elephantine.
For me, as i said, this game is won. we can win it in 10 turns with cuir or in 20 with cav...
As we need some turns to finish building the great people we need, i will delay the war at least for this 8 turns while continue to pump out superphants and will move the army into position in the south while have a limited border watch in the north.
This peacefull GA will enable me to focus on GP generation while a dual focus may be too mutch for my limited mind
so now that we speak of GPerson...
we have 3 GS (-1 for bulb) and 1 GP + 1GM from economy
next golden age will be triggered if possible by :
GS/GM/GA
GS/GM/GA/GP
GS/GM/GA/GP/other
We need : 1 GS, 2 GM, 3 GA, 1 GP and 1 other
I propose 5 cities for GP production:
istanbul 10 spe -> birth in 2 t will focus on GM
Athen 8 spe -> birth in 3-4t will focus on GA
elephantine 7-8 spe -> birth in 9-11t will focus on GP (build temples) + GA
Ankara 5 spe -> birth in more than 12 t
Erdine 4 +1 next turn -> long time shoot
in each case, the plan is to run max: spy, eng, priest and then max of art or merchant but no mixing.
I should leave the set last turn of GA with 3 GP gained (free GM included) and 5 in preparation within a short range.
We should continue GP generation with pacifism all time long until we have all we need.
For the rest, I propose the following:
Science: PP(1+GS bulb), guild (2), bank(2), economy (3)
civic: whip few stuffs, caste (T0), merchantilism (T5)
building order: follow vran advices previous page.
Army: keep a guard watch in argos (6-8 mixed units) and move everything else in elephantine.
·Imhotep·
Legendary Builder
Sorry I've been absent for so long. Got a rough time in RL right now. I'll report for duty here once I've sorted all of it out. I apologize.
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 25,121
Sounds ok. Honestly, I've almost forgot what we are doing here. Still think fighting some now is best but whatever. I'm outvoted as usual.
Make sure you check your micro as you tech. I seriously doubt Banking will take 2 turns.
Make sure you check your micro as you tech. I seriously doubt Banking will take 2 turns.
T0 :
Whip some stuff in north cities
Change to caste
Go for guild (2 turns)
prepare 5 GP cities as planned
T1 : nappy gain Gondar as we planed
Build some road to increase troops mouvments
T2: gained a great prophet in ankara !
Get guild.
Go for printed press and part bulb it with GS (had forgot to do it T0)
T3: gained PP, go for bank (1 turn)
A monastery is destroyed in thebe.
Zara ask to declare war to nappy. No way, we are pacifists.
Nappy army is moving into zara land but will not go far. Camel Archers are everywhere.
Saladin would trade for bank for paper +230 golds. No thanks, I prefer to waste 1 turn teching it that to make him closer to liberalism.
T4 bank in, go for economy (3)
Got a strange message: saladin adopt decentralization… what the hell is that?
Got a great artist in athen!
Can’t swap to mercantilism right now, have to wait 1 turn.
Trade with zara : guild+105 gold for engineering. Not a critical tech but we will be happy to have it latter.
Start some banks in high commerce cities
T5
Trade with zara : bank+60 gold for optic.
Swap to mercantilism
T6
Saladin is ready to take back Gondar.
T7
Saladin took Gondar as planned.
Economy in, go for gunpowder (1 turn)
Paper is still a monopoly (saladin have it next turn)
In thebes we have a good stock of GP:
1 GM, 2 GP, 2 GS, 1 GA
If we go as planned :
GS/GM/GA
GS/GM/GA/GP
GS/GM/GA/GP/other
We still need 1 GS, 2 GM, 2 GA and one other
Elephantine is next to give a GP in 5 turns with most chance to get a GA.
Next 4 are in 9 turns max (not counting cap increase).
army is massed in elephantine and ready to be upgraded.
Whip some stuff in north cities
Change to caste
Go for guild (2 turns)
prepare 5 GP cities as planned
T1 : nappy gain Gondar as we planed
Build some road to increase troops mouvments
T2: gained a great prophet in ankara !
Get guild.
Go for printed press and part bulb it with GS (had forgot to do it T0)
T3: gained PP, go for bank (1 turn)
A monastery is destroyed in thebe.
Zara ask to declare war to nappy. No way, we are pacifists.
Nappy army is moving into zara land but will not go far. Camel Archers are everywhere.
Saladin would trade for bank for paper +230 golds. No thanks, I prefer to waste 1 turn teching it that to make him closer to liberalism.
T4 bank in, go for economy (3)
Got a strange message: saladin adopt decentralization… what the hell is that?
Got a great artist in athen!
Can’t swap to mercantilism right now, have to wait 1 turn.
Trade with zara : guild+105 gold for engineering. Not a critical tech but we will be happy to have it latter.
Start some banks in high commerce cities
T5
Trade with zara : bank+60 gold for optic.
Swap to mercantilism
T6
Saladin is ready to take back Gondar.
T7
Saladin took Gondar as planned.
Economy in, go for gunpowder (1 turn)
Paper is still a monopoly (saladin have it next turn)
In thebes we have a good stock of GP:
1 GM, 2 GP, 2 GS, 1 GA
If we go as planned :
GS/GM/GA
GS/GM/GA/GP
GS/GM/GA/GP/other
We still need 1 GS, 2 GM, 2 GA and one other
Elephantine is next to give a GP in 5 turns with most chance to get a GA.
Next 4 are in 9 turns max (not counting cap increase).
army is massed in elephantine and ready to be upgraded.
vranasm
Deity
well will try to look at this, but running into heavy problems with schedule right now... have some tasks home, family and other civ activities so if no one has something against I will maybe postpone a bit the analysis and playing towards weekend.
vranasm
Deity
cam will be back this week end.
He may want to play his postponed set in you can't.
Anyway, i still appreciate critics
well that would be probably best if cam takes over his TS ;-)
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