Scouts=Useless

[Dhoomstriker]

only thing they're good for is getting a fogbuster out sooner, and even that i'm sure will be disregarded by imm+ players.

On the contrary, I am in agreement with Obsolete. Scouts are clearly an overpowered unit.

Check out the following situation, where a single Scout single-handedly held off enemy units valued at 15 times its strength, saving an important City in my empire! In fact, I was able to continue to produce that Worker completely uninterrupted, thanks to the presence of that amazing Scout!

Spoiler :

 

[bestbrian]

even with huts on, you should never make a scout. having fun is great, but it doesn't change the fact that scouts are a waste of hammers. only thing they're good for is getting a fogbuster out sooner, and even that i'm sure will be disregarded by imm+ players.

I'm an Imm+ player, and, as described above, I found a circumstance where it paid off huge to build a few scouts; nowhere near a waste of hammers. Not something I would do every game, but situational flexibility is a necessary component to higher level play.

 

[MeatUnit2]

I play on huge maps, marathon, usually the Japanese (I may be masochistic) and they start with a warrior. The number of times I've had a goody hut snatched away by an AI scout makes me want to scream.

In a game I'm playing now I've been using a Great Spy as an undetectable "scout" and was able to watch my enemies build up a SOD and prepare for it. Not only did this intelligence allow me to crush the invading army, but I was also able to mount a counter attack and burn the city it was launched from.

On heavily wooded/jungled worlds a scout with two forest improvements is very useful, but you can't take your eye off 'em. One run in with bears or a barb and you are likely to be less one scout.

 

[Kid R]

The scout is an interesting unit in a way, because of how the usefulness of building them changes so much with the game difficulty setting. I can't think of another unit where that's so true. Archers perhaps, spies?

 

[Ghpstage]

On heavily wooded/jungled worlds a scout with two forest improvements is very useful, but you can't take your eye off 'em. One run in with bears or a barb and you are likely to be less one scout.

Actually the more forest and jungle tiles on a map the worse Scouts are. They remove the Scouts movement advantage completely and don't offer the same level of protection to Scouts as it does for Warriors.

 

[Wodan]

Actually the more forest and jungle tiles on a map the worse Scouts are. They remove the Scouts movement advantage completely and don't offer the same level of protection to Scouts as it does for Warriors.

Both those points aren't true. A Scout with Woods II has better movement (rather than the same as you claim) and the same % level of protection (rather than less, as you claim).

 

[Ghpstage]

Both those points aren't true. A Scout with Woods II has better movement (rather than the same as you claim) and the same % level of protection (rather than less, as you claim).

As Warriors have higher base strength, they gain more from the same % of defense bonuses. Both Scouts and Warriors move 2 tiles through forest and jungle if they have Woodsman 2, and Warriors are far more likely to survive to get it.

 

[jgroth1978]

The only scout I use is the one that sometimes comes at the start of a game. Yes, they have that extra movement, but my scouts have typically fallen victim to barbs at one point or another. Once my scout dies, which is inevitable, I'll try to use a mounted unit for exploration.

 

[MeatUnit2]

The "Sid's Tips" when a city is ready for a new build that prompts you to build a scout...
Maybe you should turn the "tips" off.

If you want to man a caravel, scout, or explorer by then, is one of only a few choices, and it's good.
Very good if you are playing a 'real world' map, since the scout/explorer may luck out and hit a settler at a goody hut and found a colony. In any event they give you the opportunity to look into the interior of large land masses and intelligence is key to any future strat.

 

[Ghpstage]

If you want to man a caravel, scout, or explorer by then, is one of only a few choices, and it's good.
Very good if you are playing a 'real world' map, since the scout/explorer may luck out and hit a settler at a goody hut and found a colony. In any event they give you the opportunity to look into the interior of large land masses and intelligence is key to any future strat.

Its not good compared to the alternatives.

Uninhabited landmases will be full of barbs, and just about every hut on those landmases will be defended by them. Not only will your Scouts/Explorers attract heaps of barb attention but they will be unable to pop the huts anyway....
Spies on the other hand, are completely immune to barbs, able to pop defended huts, walk through barb cities and even make use of barb territory roads!

For inhabited landmasses map trades are the preferable method of exploration, but uif you must use units Explorers aren't really any better than Missionaries, and for the same cost .

 

[theratman]

I use scouts in the beginning(if i start with one) and then set them on auto explore after awhile.They are useful in game and it would be prudent to have one on a ship if you are going to explore a new continent but Id rather have an extra worker/archer on the boat.

 

[Wodan]

I use scouts in the beginning(if i start with one) and then set them on auto explore after awhile.

Auto-explore with a scout? You mean the "go off into the wilderness and get yourself killed" setting?

 

[bestbrian]

Auto-explore with a scout? You mean the "go off into the wilderness and get yourself killed" setting?

Gotta agree with Wodan here. Autoexplore is just as useless as Automate Worker.

 

[s.bernbaum]

The only use I have for autoexplore is after everything has been explored on manual. I put a left over explorer into a civ with whom I have open borders but who is on another continent. I make sure that the option to view the moves of friendly civs is on. Then on each turn I will see some of what is going on in the other civ as the explorer wanders about, without having to micromanage his moves all the time. I don't build any explorers for this but only use any that have survived the manual exploration stage.

 

[kossmikman]

Medic scouts are useful. Heck, even a GG supermedic scout is good.

 

[Ataxerxes]

Medic scouts are useful. Heck, even a GG supermedic scout is good.

I often use an Explorer as Supermedic. After you make your scout a Supermedic, you can upgrade him for free. He's still weak enough he won't be called upon to defend.

 

[plasmacannon]

I have to say Doom, since, catapults can't kill a unit, it that instance, it worked, but, a warrior would have worked just as well, for the same cost, and the warrior could have the charge promotion added later.

I often use an Explorer as Supermedic. After you make your scout a Supermedic, you can upgrade him for free. He's still weak enough he won't be called upon to defend.

I'd rather have a warrior for that purpose.
Scouts/Explorers can't get woods3, so, there are better options for the SuperMedic.
Also, I prefer lots of woods3 axemen. They make good general defenders, worker stealers, and barb fog busters.
Barbs don't build chariots (the Hittites should, but, that's another topic), so, the axemen have no hard counter, until you have a neighbor empire on that side who has chariots.
I have used explorers on automate to refresh an open bordered empire's map for me.
Except, when the empire I have, has a 2 movement UU, like Zulu. Impis with woods2 can move 4 tiles though forest/jungle. Much better than a scout and it can beat chariots + HAs.

 

[Ataxerxes]

Plasmacannon - I'm trying to add up the number of promos I'd need for Woody3Medic3 for a normal Civ.
Combat I - 2
Medic I - 5
Medic II - 10
Medic III - 17
Woody I - 26
Woody II - 37
Woody III - 50

In a well promoted unit that I might want to use for something else, that's 2 GG's. I normally don't need that much healing in my supermedic - he's also going to be slow.

I agree that Zulu Impis make excellent supermedics. My argument also fails against Monty. He only needs 26 XP. Monty should have a Jaguar supedmedic. Regarding your argument about the Impis advantage against mounted - I disagree. I don't like having my Supermedics fighting. 99% isn't good enough with my RNG luck.

 

[plasmacannon]

The fact that a scout can Only defend, doesn't permit it the option of finishing off units in a city that just been collatered. Where an axeman (Jaguar, Gallic Warrior etc.) can at least attack a 2.0 strength longbow to keep earning xp. After a GG is placed on it, with the leadership promo, it will earn double xp, and can be upgraded without loss of xp, to travel around with riflemen later and continuing the process.

On your xp chart, AGG leaders start with Combat1, and CHA leaders need fewer xp to promote. So, there are leaders who would do this better than others, Jags and Gallics being the best at it.
I'm not sure how you could get the scout up in xp, beyond maybe 30 xp. They won't get the AGG leaders free combat 1 promo. A warrior would work better in those cases than a scout, even if you didn't want to upgrade it.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Plasmacannon - I'm trying to add up the number of promos I'd need for Woody3Medic3 for a normal Civ.
Combat I - 2
Medic I - 5
Medic II - 10
Medic III - 17
Woody I - 26
Woody II - 37
Woody III - 50

In a well promoted unit that I might want to use for something else, that's 2 GG's. I normally don't need that much healing in my supermedic - he's also going to be slow.

Unfortunately, even 2 Great Generals won't be enough, further strengthening your argument.

Only a single Great General can be attached to a unit. To use a second Great General, you'll have to put your first Great-General-attached unit on the same square as the second Great General and a second unit to which you will attach the second Great General. That'll only give you 10 extra Experience Points on the original Great General.

Even if you do follow this approach, those extra 10 Experience Points are likely only going to equate to one additional promotion on your first Great General unit... hardly worth the effort at all.

My argument also fails against Monty. He only needs 26 XP. Monty should have a Jaguar supedmedic.

Monte for the win!