Sea Transport Is Realistic?

[Stretchy Man]

Not being able to stack warships with embarked units isn't a lot of fun and makes invasions from the sea next to impossible for the AI, but I wonder if this is actually realistic.

Modern invasions from the sea are only possible by controlling both the sea and skies. Hitler didn't control either and gave up with his plans for invading Britain. Transporting armies across water has always been very risky.

Could explain why Shafer did this. He surely couldn't have designed it like this for gameplay reasons.

 

[lschnarch]

Not being able to stack warships with embarked units isn't a lot of fun and makes invasions from the sea next to impossible for the AI, but I wonder if this is actually realistic.

Modern invasions from the sea are only possible by controlling both the sea and skies. Hitler didn't control either and gave up with his plans for invading Britain. Transporting armies across water has always been very risky.

Could explain why Shafer did this. He surely couldn't have designed it like this for gameplay reasons.

Bad example.
By following Civ5's rules, D-Day would never have happened.

 

[Stretchy Man]

Not sure it is. D-Day was only possible because Germany had no warships by then, and bugger all air cover. Would have worked even in Civ 5.

 

[The_Quasar]

You don't need to stack to protect, the best practice is as they found best in WW2, surround your troups with warships, putting the most valuable troups at the centre... it works well, and is the system I use, to good effect. You may lose the odd troup, but your main force should be ok.

Unfortunately, the AI doesn't understand this, or perhaps the creators of the game didn't understand this, so the AI has no idea how to protect an invasion force.

 

[Tokira]

You don't need to stack to protect, the best practice is as they found best in WW2, surround your troups with warships, putting the most valuable troups at the centre... it works well, and is the system I use, to good effect. You may lose the odd troup, but your main force should be ok.

Unfortunately, the AI doesn't understand this, or perhaps the creators of the game didn't understand this, so the AI has no idea how to protect an invasion force.

The problem with this is that even if you surround your troops with war ships (which would be very costy if you have a big army), the AI can still shoot your units despite of the warships being next to them. In my opinion we'd need to have the war ships blocking the visibility to the units behind them. You cannot shoot over a frigate with a caravel in real life (at least if you can, you can't 1 shot the ships behind the frigate)..

 

[Stretchy Man]

perhaps the creators of the game didn't understand this

I'm getting this feeling a lot. The AI programmer doesn't seem to understand the reasons behind Shafter's design decisions or even how to play Civ 5. Shafter doesn't seem to understand the problems his decisions will cause the AI programmer. There is no common feel to the interface. Playtesters were obviously ignored. There seems to have been major communication problems on this project and that has to reflect badly on Shafter and Shirk.

 

[The_Quasar]

The problem with this is that even if you surround your troops with war ships (which would be very costy if you have a big army), the AI can still shoot your units despite of the warships being next to them. In my opinion we'd need to have the war ships blocking the visibility to the units behind them. You cannot shoot over a frigate with a caravel in real life (at least if you can, you can't 1 shot the ships behind the frigate)..

If you take your warships 3 or 4 tiles from the main force, you discover your enemy that much sooner, but they have a better opportunity to slip past you... use any land that is close to funnel their warships to yours... in my experience their attack is not coordinated, and as soon as you discover a potential attacker, eliminate them with the nearest warships before they get close enough to the main force to fire... one or two may get through, damaged, but you can finish them the following turn.

imo this is far more realistic, and far more of a challenge, strategicly, than a stack of doom, or stacking warships with troups (which will take far more warships and is quite likely to take more losses, unless you release the warships to attack the attacking force together, defeating the object of the stacking)...

 

[DaveGold]

Sea transports were almost certainly excluded from the design as they would break 1 unit per tile. I don't think realism was the main priority.

 

[Sonereal]

Anyone who is attempting to surround their landing force with a navy is a fool. You're supposed to screen the ocean and have ships at far enough distance and in enough numbers just to be able to hit the enemy before a ship is sunk. The most annoying ships to try to take down are Destroyers in this regard (8 movement means you're gonna need a lot of ships).

 

[rschissler]

Sea transports were almost certainly excluded from the design as they would break 1 unit per tile. I don't think realism was the main priority.

This is your answer.

 

[The_Quasar]

Anyone who is attempting to surround their landing force with a navy is a fool. You're supposed to screen the ocean and have ships at far enough distance and in enough numbers just to be able to hit the enemy before a ship is sunk.

This is what I was trying to say!

The most annoying ships to try to take down are Destroyers in this regard (8 movement means you're gonna need a lot of ships).

aint that the truth, and especially Lizzie's!

 

[Teperi Blaze]

Build more ships "cries the fanboi"

Build more bois :cries the other boy.

 

[badger1234]

You can bombard cities to 1 HP then attack the city from the sea with your troop(s). I have tried this and although the city attacks the troop ship it never destroys it. Your troops then occupy the city. Your next problem is defending the city and getting enough troops around it to defend it.

On the AI side, I was attacked by Siam in the very north of my country via the sea. He flooded the waters with troops and other ships. I was able to easily pick off all his troops, which had they reached land would have taken several cities. Siam was weakened after this assault and I was able to counter using the above method and take and hold one of their citys.

AI land invations are dire at best

On the subject, I find transportation issues OK for Civ as long as you have a strategy.

AI transportation is like lambs to the slaughter.

 

[jtb1127]

I don't like unit embankment. I think it is dumb that a unit can just produce a transport ship just like that. Also, any decent naval invasion takes up so many tiles, it ridiculous. Also I hate it how my transport ships are extremely vulnerable when they go in the water and there is barely a way to protect them unless I get six war ships completely surround them.

The solution-transport ships that can carry two or three units at a time, but 1upt still applies so the transport ships can't be stacked up each other and he landing units can't stack either. These transport ships will still be weak, but not that weak.

 

[Ddude97]

You solution would pretty much break 1upt, as was said earlier in teh thread- want to spring an attack on your enemy on the other continent, use a couple of these and now you barely (if at all) need a navy. I don't like the embarkment system much, but I think its a necessary evil.

 

[Sonereal]

I don't like unit embankment. I think it is dumb that a unit can just produce a transport ship just like that. Also, any decent naval invasion takes up so many tiles, it ridiculous. Also I hate it how my transport ships are extremely vulnerable when they go in the water and there is barely a way to protect them unless I get six war ships completely surround them.

Again, you're an idiot to try to surround your invading fleet completely. That would be like if the Allies tried to land in Normandy and Germany's High Seas Fleet still had the Bismark in it, you just don't do it. They're supposed to be vulnerable. Naval invasions aren't easy nor are they supposed to be.

Given the LOS and speed of ships, you should be able to escort landing vessels pretty easily up until Destroyers and even then, you should've already had your ships destroy the enemy navy and blockade their ports.

 

[lschnarch]

I don't like the embarkment system much, but I think its a necessary evil.

It is evil, yes. But not necessary.

In fact it opens a can of worms for the AI which doesn't even understand the most easy principles of land warfare.
But now, "thanks" to embarkation, it has to deal with the fact that units effectivly change their characteristics.

The longsword which may have been a decent unit on land now becomes a lame duck, being outrun and outclassed by *any* naval unit of the opponent.
In addition, the different movement rules and missing protectional hexes on sea make it at least tedious for the human player, too. And it is only the overall weakness of the AI which makes human naval invasions worthwile.

In total it constitutes a stupid idea, which only can be used to a certain extent by the human player.

 

[Sonereal]

It is evil, yes. But not necessary.

Yes it is for 1UPT.

In fact it opens a can of worms for the AI which doesn't even understand the most easy principles of land warfare.

You're under the illusion that the AI in any game can intelligently coordinate combined arm forces.

But now, "thanks" to embarkation, it has to deal with the fact that units effectivly change their characteristics.

Umm....cool?

The longsword which may have been a decent unit on land now becomes a lame duck, being outrun and outclassed by *any* naval unit of the opponent.

And?

In addition, the different movement rules and missing protectional hexes on sea make it at least tedious for the human player, too. And it is only the overall weakness of the AI which makes human naval invasions worthwile.

I'm glad Civ5 is carrying on the proud tradition of the AI failing at anything naval related.

In total it constitutes a stupid idea, which only can be used to a certain extent by the human player.

I use it extensively.

 

[Bibor]

Unfortunately, the AI doesn't understand this, or perhaps the creators of the game didn't understand this, so the AI has no idea how to protect an invasion force.

Noone can "defend" an invasion force. You're supposed to take out their navy and protect the fleet with fighter planes from aerial attacks. The idea is that you declare war and send in your navy a few turns before you send in the embarked units. Submarines are excellent for defending your embarked units, since they can take out any ship in 1-2 strikes (or in 1 with promo).

 

[lschnarch]

I use it extensively.

Sure you do. You are the human and you're fighting against an incapable AI. So, all odds are in your favour.