Sgotm 01 - C D Z

[grahamiam]

Ok, so that's mostly everything, including 2 seperate threads regarding city placement and general strategy that were not in the Turnplaying Thread at CDZ. Hopefully, this will appease the lurkers and staff.

Remember, if anyone wants to lurk over at CDZ, you are more than welcome. Just sign up here -> http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3577 and Shabbaman will let you in, plus the 1st drink is on the house

 

[socralynnek]

Thanks, grahamiam...

Maybe we can post the posts from CDZ daily or so...

 

[AlanH]

Ok, so that's mostly everything, including 2 seperate threads regarding city placement and general strategy that were not in the Turnplaying Thread at CDZ. Hopefully, this will appease the lurkers and staff.

Remember, if anyone wants to lurk over at CDZ, you are more than welcome. Just sign up here -> http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3577 and Shabbaman will let you in, plus the 1st drink is on the house

Thank you grahamiam. That was a lot of effort, and a big help. Much appreciated

 

[grahamiam]

Thanks, grahamiam...

Maybe we can post the posts from CDZ daily or so...

yep, as noted over at CDZ, we will do a daily or every 2 day transfer. unfortunately, not all turnplayers in this team have regular access to CFC, so we cannot get away from using it as they would be almost completely left out of the discussion/planning phase of the game. I hope the vocal lurkers can understand...

 

[AlanH]

Why would CDZ be particularly disadvantaged? I suspect not all players in the other teams have daytime access from work either, so I'm not sure I buy that as a sufficient reason for treating your CFC thread as second best. However, getting the discussions copied here is better than what we had previously.

 

[Beam]

@AlanH: as a very popular game site CFC is blocked from many company networks. Including those where some of our teammemembers have a job. CDZ doesn't suffer from that with most companies and since we as you feel teamplay is very important in the SGOTM using CDZ as the prime forum for discussion while posting updates at CFC on a regular basis serves both goals of satisfying gameplay, keeping the ppl here informed and have a log for the other teams once the SGOTM is finished.

grahamain and me agreed to post daily updates at CFC as an alternating daily / twodaily routine. So here we go:

socralynnek:
So, I played until 925 BC.
We have sailing and I chose the religious path to CoL cause it's muchmuchmuch faster than the match/curr path.

Hinduism has spread to Westside, canceled Open Borders with Russia afterwards because they are running out of land and would surely be sending a Settler soon (and if we cancel the deal then it might jump to the free land)

Settler started in Thebes. Using a scientist there.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CDZ_SG001_BC0925_01.Civ4SavedGame

Samson -> UP
bedhead -> on deck
Beam
barbu
Shabbaman
grahamiam
socralynnek

Good decison to cancel the OB soc, a settler from St.P could move to the E borders of Copperfield and we do not really need it until a Galley goes scouting for new found land (Newfoundland?? [lol]):

[br] 57.16 KB[/size=1]

St.P has a Lib as shown here, tiles S of Copperfield are steady iirc so no real worry imo:

[br] 75.52 KB[/size=1]

I always simply referred to Demographics in III as F11, got to get used to call it F9 now:

[br] 112.15 KB[/size=1]

GNP: room for improvement, yet we got plenty of room with all those fps
MFG: numero uno
Food: number 3 spot mainly the result of the scientist in Theebs, working the rice gives 42 and 2nd spot but causes health and happiness issues soon
Soldiers: the usual 7th
Pop: 5th, Rival worst is just 1/4th of our pop! [rotfl] In III this would be a major issue, in IV it is more important what the pop is doing imo.
Approval: 7th, who cares if it is just leveled
Life Expectancy: 6th, not sure how this is calculated
Trade (imports/exports): no one trading yet.

BK is -1 in happiness and soc send a warrior to solve that. It means the N area is unscouted so barbs could originate their. Build a warrior in BK after the Gran to scout the N? An Axe could be build as well but takes more hammers and does the same job.

Med (2) > Priests (5) > CoL (28)

Which brings the question of religion. Convert to Hindu or adopt Confu assuming we are going to make it?

 

[AlanH]

@AlanH: as a very popular game site CFC is blocked from many company networks. Including those where some of our teammemembers have a job. CDZ doesn't suffer from that with most companies and since we as you feel teamplay is very important in the SGOTM using CDZ as the prime forum for discussion while posting updates at CFC on a regular basis serves both goals of satisfying gameplay, keeping the ppl here informed and have a log for the other teams once the SGOTM is finished.

grahamain and me agreed to post daily updates at CFC as an alternating daily / twodaily routine. So here we go:

Thanks, but I understood what was said the first time. I didn't buy it because statistically, the other teams should suffer the same limited access to CFC during working hours as you do, but they don't go off and use another site. You do it because you choose to, not because you would be at any special disadvantage if you posted here.

 

[grahamiam]

All quotes are from Saturday, May 20th

Originally posted by Samson
I should be able to take this later today or tommorrow. Any decisions need to be made?

Burger king is going to be a commerce city? So we need a lib there at some point, but after 2 work boats and at least 1 galley.

Are we going to priesthood via meditation or polytheism? I would say meditation as it is cheaper and it allows monastries. Polytheism is required for monotheism (allowing organised religion).

As we are spiritual we can swop state religion as much as we like. I would change to hinduism to keep Cathy sweet. I would tempted to build a monastry in westside and get some missonarys out, esp. to Thebes cos it will need the happiness at some point. Quite an investment in hammers though when we MAY get it for free.

Do we still have 3 forests around westside? we could use them for the monastry. I guess we are not that far of maths, so it could be around the time when we should leave them.

If I have a settler I shall put it on the desert hill unless there is any other opinions on the city placement thread.

Copperfield will pump wariors for the moment, until we have enough to bust all the fog.

Originally posted by grahamiam
re: burger king: I think that's going to be our GP city, with all that food. Therefore, a Library is definitely in order for the GScientist.

I'm fine with Meditation, just wish Cathy would convert us already

I'm also fine with the desert hill. That will be another commerce city, so best to get the cottages up ASAP.

Copperfield can pump axes and War Chariots. What good are warriors? Nearly all the fog is busted anyways.

 

[grahamiam]

All quotes are from Sunday, May 21st

Originally posted by Samson
[br]Got it.

Originally posted by grahamiam
I'm fine with Meditation, just wish Cathy would convert us already

Copperfield can pump axes and War Chariots. What good are warriors? Nearly all the fog is busted anyways.

We can convert now. I shall do it.

Axes for the minute then.

Originally posted by Samson
[br]925 BC - Convert to Hinduism. Cow = 83% ours.

IBT -Hinduism spreads to copperfeild. That will give us more culture to keep our borders. Conect first city (Copperfield) to capital.

910 BC - Warior to Burgerking, no more unhappiness. Put citizen on plains forest farther than fish, as it cannot support any more pop. Growth still in 10 turns. Worker to grassland forest next to BK, considering road there.

IBT - Meditation discovered, start on Preisthood (3). Axeman finished CF, start on work boat. granery finished in BK, start on Lib.

895 BC - Cow 82% Ours. We may have to think about culture in CF at some point. Worker builds road on cottage south of Westbank.

880 BC - Other worker finishes road by WB. Axeman NE, warior to sweet spot.

IBT -Moses born somewhere else. Do we care?

865 BC - No more fog at sweetspot (warior there). 2 workers mining plains hill for CF.

850 BC - Worker towards fish n chips.

IBT - Preisthood discovered, start on CoL (28).

835 BC - Worker does 1 turn of cottage NE of Thebes.

820 BC - Worker starts cottage for Fish n Chips. Mine for CF finished, start mine. I thought long and hard about what to do with the other worker, I ended up deciding to contine the road onto the forest NE, E of West Bank.

IBT - Settler finishes in Theebs, start settler I guess, nothing else obvious to build here. Work boat finishes in CF. I am very tempted by a monastry, we need religeon in BK ASAP. I decide on 1 War chariot fisrt, finished the turn after I finish so someone else can make the decision then.

805 BC - Change my mind abou tthe road near WB, start on cottage for WB, finished 1 turn before it is needed, no worker turns lost.

790 BC - Move axeman, only 2 tiles of fog on our peninula. The settler moves to the desert hill.

IBT - Barb Archer apears NE, E, E of BK.

775 BC - I move the Axeman SW so it is on a hill next to the archer. I hope the archer will attack, but it could move onto the horses. The axeman can then attack it (should be easy). I have not moved the settler, it could found the city on the desert hill or the desert this turn.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CDZ_SG001_BC0775_01.Civ4SavedGame

Decisions for next player -

[EDIT] I almost forgot, what promotion to give the axeman. Could be done this turn.

Where to build city.
Monastry or more units for CF. A galley would be nice, we may find some more land past thouse mountains.
What to do with the fog busting axeman after killing archer. I guess heal somewhere where he busts a lot of fog. I would like to see the sea north of the silver, it would be nice if there was a food source up there that would make settling the silver worth while, as an extra happiness would be very good just now.
What to build in Fish n Chips? I reakon grannery, or possibly library
.

Originally posted by Beam
[br]Settling Fish 'n Chips on the desert hill fine with me, building a gran there will give +1h from the rice. Very much in favor of a Monastery in CF for 2 reasons. To have additional culture because the cow is at 73% now and to build a missionary for BK.

We can wait with promotions until it is clear which promotion is the best.

Originally posted by Samson

Originally posted by Beam
Settling Fish 'n Chips on the desert hill fine with me, building a gran there will give +1h from the rice. Very much in favor of a Monastery in CF for 2 reasons. To have additional culture because the cow is at 73% now and to build a missionary for BK.

73% ? Wow, that is quite a change. I expect we will lose the cow at some point (at lease we will keep the copper). Definaty build the monastry, and I guess a temple as well (the happiness will be good as well). It think monatries give 2 culture? I do not think there is a great need for more milatry ATM.

Originally posted by Beam
We can wait with promotions until it is clear which promotion is the best.

Thing is there is every chance it will be attacked in the IBT, not much chance of it loosing though.

Originally posted by grahamiam
[br]just give the axe a general combat 1 promotion. It kills the archer, then goes combat 2 (+20%) and will be a strength 6 unit (strength 9 vs swords and other axes). Should be good for general protection

Originally posted by Beam
[br]I'd really like the game moving and although bedhead is up and I'm on deck I'd like if another set of turns is played today. I'll wait an hour or so. Bedhead can play after me. Everybody ok with this / objections?

Originally posted by socralynnek
OK with me although it's more than an hour after your post...

Originally posted by Beam
775BC: Fish 'n Chips founded on the desert hill. Close inspection of the mountain range reveals nothing but mountains and water. Tried to capture the waves, unsuccessfully.

[br] 69.64 KB[/size=1]

IT: The N Axe feels a light shake in the Axe. It appears some species called "Barb Archer" attempted to attack. No damage, Axe goes 5/5 and is granted 10% strengt and another promotion pending.

760BC: CF completes WC > Monastery. BK again goes unhappy. CoL in 20.

745BC: Scouting Axe sees a barb Axe omfg.

730BC: Barb Axes has moved to BK, our Axes closes in on a hill.

IT: Axeman battle, we win! Axe goes 6/5 at 2.5/5

715BC: Axes gets Combat II and moves N to heal. BK completes Lib, gets a scientist and starts Galley.

700BC: Cathy has Gems available, we got a Stone not used for anything so a deal is made. BK goes happy again and another scientist.

685BC: All cities are working their optimal tiles so 2 workers continue the transcontinental interstate and one is working another cottage near FnC.

670BC: Very interesting turn.

IT: FnC expands and with 2 units scouting fog is gone. Cathy offers Open borders. Nice gesture, wrong time.

655BC: Westbank grows and is MM'd to complete gran prior to next growth. Science is upped 10% for CoL in 8. Cow S of CF is at 68%, Monastery will complete next turn.

640BC: Monastery in CF > Missionary for BK. Cow steady at 68% but should be monitored closely. The tiles N of St.P were at 91%, 90% current so looking good.

625BC: Healed Axe arrives on the silver and just sees ice and water there. Workers are roading / cottaging to FnC. CF cow is steady at 68% and N St.P tiles go to 89%. Although I played 10 turns now I'll play one more to grow FnC which will make the score a little nicer.

610BC: CoL in 4, no unit actions performed.

To be discussed:
- what to research after CoL? Happiness is an issue under control but limits city growth atm. Sweet spot has a sugar which requires Maths > Calendar.
- next city? Settler completes in Theebs in 1 turn. Imo either sweet spot or riverside.

Most cities are MM'd for what they are doing and require attention every turn. I was just cursing at myself cause I changed Theebs one turn to late for the settler.

Originally posted by Samson

Originally posted by Beam
655BC: Westbank grows and is MM'd to complete gran prior to next growth.

You know that now it does not matter weather you build a granery just before growth or just after? It is just that each time food is put into the bin then another 50% is put into the grannery.

Great news about the gems.

Originally posted by Beam
Sav is here: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CDZ_SG001_BC0610_01.Civ4SavedGame

@samson, I playtested the granary thing in an old 4otm save and there it behaved like in III. Has it changed with the patch?

 

[grahamiam]

All quotes are from Monday, May 22nd

Originally posted by Samson
[br]

Originally posted by Beam
[br]Sav is here: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CDZ_SG001_BC0610_01.Civ4SavedGame

@samson, I playtested the granary thing in an old 4otm save and there it behaved like in III. Has it changed with the patch?

I am 95% sure that in 1.51 it worked like I am desctibing (not like Civ 3 at all). I shall have a go at play testing it lunchtime.

Originally posted by Samson
[br]

Originally posted by Samson
[br]I am 95% sure that in 1.51 it worked like I am desctibing (not like Civ 3 at all). I shall have a go at play testing it lunchtime.

I have just tested it. I built the grannery a turn before growth and I only had 5 food in the box, about right for 1 turn of having a grannery.

the save just in case you want to test it (may not leave it there for ever);

http://205.234.144.65/~server/temp/DEV1_BC-3520GranneryTest.Civ4SavedGame

Originally posted by grahamiam
[br]Samson
bedhead -> UP
Beam -> just played (and seems to be in a race )
barbu -> on deck
Shabbaman
grahamiam
socralynnek

 

[grahamiam]

All quotes are from Tuesday, May 23rd

Originally posted by bed_head7
[br]Got it. Going to read through all of the posts and whatnot and play tonight.

Originally posted by bed_head7
[br]610 BC (0) - Looks good everywhere. I think I will focus on mining hills with the workers, instead of continuing to cottage.

580 BC (2) - Settle Sweet Spot on the grassland tile. Copperfield finished up its missionary, and I start it on a library for some culture and some science.

[br] 74.55 KB[/size=1]

520 BC (6) - We learn Code of Laws, and I start up on Mathematics. Our galley hits Russian borders - I am not sure if we should sign Open Borders or not so we can keep exploring. I guess I'll just let the galley wait for a few turns, and then we can talk about it as a team.

505 BC (7) - Built a work boat in Burger King to send over to Fish'N'Chips. Will take a few turns.

460 BC (10) - Not too much to report in the last turns. In Theebs, a granary finished up, and I started a settler. That is vertoable, of course, as no shields have yet been invested, but I feel like we should go get silver so we have another luxury and can expand our population more easily. Of course, other than silver that spot is marginal, but it couldn't hurt. Also to be decided is Open Borders with Russia, so our galley can go check out that island down there. I thiink that covers everything.

[br] 56 KB[/size=1]

Originally posted by socralynnek
[br]Maybe we should wait with Open Borders until we settled that spot. Cathy might have a Settler ready for going there and we couldn't stop her.

Originally posted by Samson
[br]

Originally posted by socralynnek
[br]Maybe we should wait with Open Borders until we settled that spot. Cathy might have a Settler ready for going there and we couldn't stop her.

Which spot? I think the important ones are Silverado and Riverside, I would not cry too much about clam chowder.

If the galley is just hanging about, how about checking beyond those mountains? We may find somewhere for it to go.

Originally posted by grahamiam
[br]We need to start eyeing Cathy's lands. We've fully explored her, so what are her key cities? Which ones do we want to keep or dump?

Originally posted by Samson
[br]Heres a picture of her lands. I think a bigger question is when do we attack. We obviously wait till we have a few cats, but I would be tempted to wait until we have alphabet so we can get a few techs off her before we destroy her.

I think we raise Rostov and put 2 cities on the south coast. Novogrod would be better 1 tile up, but it may be worth keeping. It would be nice to move Moscow onto the coast, but it is the hindu holy city so we have to keep it.

[br] 82.8 KB[/size=1]

I shall have to learn how to shrink the screen shots, anyone know how to do it without installing some pirate software?

Originally posted by grahamiam
[br]i always just load it in MS Paint and shrink it to 78% vert and horizontal.

As far as attacking cathy goes, WC's probably could cut thru the defenses at St. Pete's, though it does have 2 expansions. I really feel we have to take all her land before LB's come online. Otherwise, it'll be a slog. St. Pete's and Moscow are on hills, so those will be difficult without cats...

questions: Why is Copperfield building a library? What about units? Ditto Westbank. Both are low commerce towns that should be focused on unit-building if possible. Also, BurgerKing is building a courthouse, is our maintenance that bad already?

Originally posted by Samson

Originally posted by grahamiam
i always just load it in MS Paint and shrink it to 78% vert and horizontal.

As far as attacking cathy goes, WC's probably could cut thru the defenses at St. Pete's, though it does have 2 expansions. I really feel we have to take all her land before LB's come online. Otherwise, it'll be a slog. St. Pete's and Moscow are on hills, so those will be difficult without cats...

questions: Why is Copperfield building a library? What about units? Ditto Westbank. Both are low commerce towns that should be focused on unit-building if possible. Also, BurgerKing is building a courthouse, is our maintenance that bad already?

I agree with Copperfield. We may lose the cow for a few turns (it is 67% ATM), but a few WC's would be much better in the long term. Have we put too much into it to abbandon it now?

Westbank it a commerce city so should get a lib.

I agree with building courthouses in low production cities now, we will need them sooner rather than later.

Cats make war so much more efficent, and we are likely to have cats around the time we are ready to attack with only 1 or 2 milatry cities (we could get Theebs on milatry).

Originally posted by grahamiam
[br]Library looks almost done in Copperfield. I thought Westfield was also a military town, so my bad there.

Originally posted by Beam
[br]Cathy has mined the Copper so she most likely has Axes.

 

[grahamiam]

All quotes are from Wednesday, May 24nd

Originally posted by barbu1977
Could someone take this one. I'm realy busy also this week and a SGOTM on my top priorities.

But I'd realy like to give it a go on saturday if possible.

Originally posted by bed_head7
Sorry about the libraries. As for corruption - yeah, it is kind of getting nasty.

Originally posted by Beam
Samson
bedhead
Beam
barbu
Shabbaman -> UP
grahamiam -> on deck
socralynnek

Originally posted by Shabbaman
I think I can play in 4 hours time.

Originally posted by grahamiam
You may want to whip that settler in Theebs once it gets to size 6. There's an exploit in CIV where we can take advantage of whip shields that you may want to try. On normal speed, each whipped citizen gives you 30 shields minimum. So, if you are 31 shields from completing the project, you whip and get 60 shields (31 to finish, 29 for the next build). Not sure if that becomes min 45 in Epic speed, with a sweet spot of 46, but maybe someone else knows.

Originally posted by Shabbaman
Eh?

Originally posted by grahamiam
Settler costs 150 food/hammers. When you are up to pop 6 and have ~100/150 left, pop rush it. This should give you another 40 shields or so for the next build, which can be a rax or a unit.

Originally posted by Shabbaman
So you whip 3 population?

Originally posted by grahamiam
should only be 2 pop for 90 shields, unless my grasp of this is all wrong. With all the food that the capitol has, that should be reclaimed rather fast.

Originally posted by Shabbaman
So what's the exploit then?

Originally posted by grahamiam
ah, I'm probably not fully understanding it as I've just started to try to use it, but basically maximize your shields/pop point, so the overflow can go into the next build.

Article is here -> http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159109 and it seems that the best way to maximize this is with a granery and forge. Also, it states to whip just before growth (ie, 1T before getting to size 6) rather than after growth.

Sorry, forgot you don't have access to CFC. Here's a pdf of the whipping part

Download Attachment: Whiptillyoubleed.pdf65.2 KB

Originally posted by Shabbaman
I'm home now []
Thanks for the link.

EDIT: and now I read AlanH's pm as well. Nice bit from some of his feedback:

I request CDZ be disqualified/eliminated from competition (and respectfully wished all the best in their "playing with themselves") unless immediately start posting discussions in CFC threads (like other teams) AND keeping their posts up to date without omissions. Isn't a HUGE component of the competition about being public (interesting/entertaining/educational)? I have no problem with them or anybody else doing their own thing but I would like a prerequisite for being an official team to include public complete discussions and descriptions.

I wonder why people not participating in the SGOTM bother with asking us to be disqualified. Oh well.

Anyway, I'm going to play in an hour or so. Any instructions besides whipping

Originally posted by Samson
I think burger king is on avoid growth. I would consider taking it off and then considering wipping that at some point.

Originally posted by grahamiam

Originally posted by Beam
Cathy has mined the Copper so she most likely has Axes.

better axes than LB's.

Originally posted by grahamiam
definitely a waste. It reduces that cities maintenence cost by 50%. It will not effect other cities. imho, we should reserve the courts for Cathy's lands as the distance maintenece will be high. Our core can wait till the size maintenance starts to increase to 4 or 5gpt.

Also, if BK is getting too big for it's pop, look at whipping something useful. That city, I think, already has a library. Perhaps a monastary or a market would be useful there as well, or a temple for some extra happy gas.

Originally posted by Shabbaman
OK then, I propose we build a lighthouse there then. BTW, I just noticed a flaw in your settler whipping plan: Theebs won't reach size 6 as it is currently producing a settler, and won't grow.

Originally posted by grahamiam
of course

 

[Shabbaman]

460 b.c. I open the save and look at the different cities. First thing I notice is that BK isn't working the fish. It's producing a courthouse (as grahamian noticed). I don't really know how courthouses work, but the maintenance is only 2 in BK. Isn't this a waste?
As I assume we don't want open borders I send the galley the other way. Since we want units I change westbank to barracks.
I send the worker that mined the hill next to FnC over to Theebs to road towards where Clam chowder will be.

445 b.c. Copperfield finishes barracks, starts building WC. BK switches to lighthouse. Science set to 50%, because we run out of gold.

430 b.c. Westbank's borders expand.

I notice something stupid: BK hasn't grown for the last 3 turns, while it keeps saying that it needs 1 more turn to grow. Should it grow? What's going on? It's breaking even op hapiness, extra growth (thus) won't add much. After some thinking I figured it's set to no growth

415 b.c. Best. Turn. Ever.

400 b.c. CF makes WC, switches to axe. I feel that we should make a missionary here to spread hinduism in BK. Then we can build a temple there to make good use of all the food there. A point up for discussion. I don't do it right away, I have no idea if it's considered stupid or wise.
Started on another cottage near FnC.

385 b.c. enter

370 b.c. Made fishing boats near FnC, didn't switch to working the fish though because I figured we need the gold for math now.

355 b.c. CF made axe, builds WC now. Noticed CF has grown to size 6.

340 b.c. Started on a cottage near BK.

I stop here at the end of turn, we have math next turn. I think we have some stuff to discuss, like what to research next and where to build our next city. I'm rereading some stuff to find out if we already decided, but I'm getting really tired as it is one and a half hour past my bedtime.

I've uploaded the save here.

 

[grahamiam]

May 24th (cont'd)

Originally posted by grahamiam
Hi,
just read the log. We are running out of money due to expansion, but that's ok. Just means FishNChips needs to develope those cottages and we'll whip some markets once currency comes in. We'll also get heaps of gold conquering Cathy, which will allow us to drive up the research rate.

For BK, if the growth will just be an angry citizen, don't bother. better to work a tree tile for extra shields.

Originally posted by Shabbaman
I figured that last one out, it's on "no growth". What if we use the whip there? It has a lot of food, so it could grow back really really fast.

 

[grahamiam]

All quotes from Thursday, May 25th

Originally posted by Beam
Just took a look at the sav posted by Shabba and have a couple of suggestions:
- Our GNP sux big time. 5th of the pack. I tested some MMing and we can easily improve to 3rd (33 vs. current 24) without seriously impacting current production. Thebes for example is building a settler in 3 while working the stone. It also can complete the settler in 3 while working a fp cottage. Another example is BK producing a Lighthouse which gives additional food. But if it grows its happiness will be -1 so there is no use for the extra food. So the Lighthouse can be slowed down and tiles switched from food + hammers to little food with commerce.
- Couple of cities are at max happiness but do not have an extra happiness cause lack of religion and miss another one cause they can't build a temple. Copperfield can build missionaries and imo should build those alternating with units. Otherwise another monastery should be build elsewhere.
- Calendar or IW after Maths. Calendar allows a Plantation on the sugar giving one more happiness. IW reveals Iron giving the Sword (if we have Iron) which is a nice addition in the stack to Cathy.
- Most corruption is -4 in CF at the moment so not a lot of need for courts atm.

Originally posted by Shabbaman
I'm glad you agree with the missionary. I'd say we spread hinduism in BK and build a monastery (and/or temple) there . BK can grow very quickly, can't we use the whip there?

Originally posted by digger760

Originally posted by Shabbaman
I'm glad you agree with the missionary.

I agree with the missionary position as well, along with many others[]

Originally posted by grahamiam
looks like I'm up. will try to play and post tonight or tomorrow night

Originally posted by socralynnek
I'd say research: Calendar->IW->Curr. The markets will be nice.

 

[grahamiam]

Originally posted on Friday, May 26th

Originally posted by Samson

Originally posted by socralynnek
I'd say research: Calendar->IW->Curr. The markets will be nice.

I would rather construction than Calender if we are likely to get it before war with Cathy. Catapults make a massive difference to the efficency of war. We only get 1 more happiness from the sugar, and then only after IW as well. 1 more when we colonise Newfoundland (if we get there before Cathy, doubtfull I suspect). Does Cathy have any other Calender resorces? There is something north of mosco, looks like sugar to me.

Currancy is going to be very important once we expand our empire.

Originally posted by Beam

Originally posted by Samson

Originally posted by socralynnek
I'd say research: Calendar->IW->Curr. The markets will be nice.

I would rather construction than Calender if we are likely to get it before war with Cathy. Catapults make a massive difference to the efficency of war. We only get 1 more happiness from the sugar, and then only after IW as well. 1 more when we colonise Newfoundland (if we get there before Cathy, doubtfull I suspect). Does Cathy have any other Calender resorces? There is something north of mosco, looks like sugar to me.

Currancy is going to be very important once we expand our empire.

Samson, very good point. I totally forgot about the pults. [blush] Sugar is the only Calendar resource in Russia, couple of them but non one to trade with. Construction would be 26 turns after Maths and with current GNP settings.

Originally posted by grahamiam
sorry, i had 1 sg and the MTDG to play last night and ran out of time. Will play tonight

Originally posted by Shabbaman
So, what about letting BK grow and then use the whip?

Originally posted by Beam

Originally posted by Shabbaman
So, what about letting BK grow and then use the whip?

[shabba] is obsessed.

 

[grahamiam]

Preflight check: MM Thebes off stone and onto FP. We can mine another hill in Copperfield for 19spt. That means a WC every 2T. MM Burger King off Cow and onto Hills. Will finish out the Lighthouse. If I whip, it'll be for a market or forge, not a Lighthouse []

Inca are up Currency (can trade gold with us).

Team seems to want to go for Construction next. I really think Monarchy would solve our happy problems and get us going, but I'll go with construction.

IBT: Math -> Const

T1: 325 BC Cottage FP near FishNChips

IBT: Copperfield WC -> Missionary; BurgerKing Lighthouse -> galley

T2: 310 BC Bump sci slider up to 60%, due in 16T vs 18; MM Copperfield for extra shields, Missionary due in 3T vs 4T

IBT: Thebes settler -> Monastary

T3: 295 BC

IBT: SweetSpot worker -> Lib; Christianity founded in St. Pete's

T4: 280 BC Found Riverside -> Lib

IBT:

T5: 265 BC Copperfield Missionary -> Missionary; FishNChips granery -> Lib

IBT:

T6: 250 BC Missionary will arrive and convert Burger King next turn, so turn back on the growth.

IBT: We are ranked 4th in the world in regards to culture.

T7: 235 BC I'm moving a warrior out of Copperfield to give MP protection to FishNChips.

IBT:

T8: 220 BC This is wierd, Burger King is refusing to grow. It should have grown last turn

IBT: Copperfield Missionary -> Missionary

T9: 205 BC This is definitely a bug. Burger King refuses to grow. We've now lost 3 turns of size 6 gold []
I send the Missionary on Automove to FishNChips

IBT: BurgerKing galley -> Monastery

T10: 190 BC a Great Scientist is Born in Burger King He is fortified in town for the team to decide what to do with him. He can discover Philosophy (Taoism is not founded yet, but we're a long way from Liberalism and Free Religon) or become an Academy in Thebes.

I strongly recommend we go for Monarchy after Construction. It is the best way to deal with the Happiness issue atm.



I really think someone should look at our save and see what is going on with the Growth in BurgerKing. Something is not right as it's been 45/45 for 3 or 4 turns now []

 

[Beam]

May 28, 29, 30

Originally posted by

Originally posted by grahamiam
I sent a PM to Alan.

Also, we may be able to research Constr in 12T instead of 13T by reducing research to 0% this turn, then turning it up to 50% next turn instead of running at 40% till we're done.

Originally posted by Gyathaar


quote:Originally posted by grahamiam
I sent a PM to Alan.


PM about what? if its the growth issue then that is obvious to me what the cause is without even looking at the save.. and should be to anyone who has ever used all govenor options..

Originally posted by Shabbaman
Well, I haven't used governors ever But like I wrote in my turn log, I assume it's set to no growth, it should've been growing to size 6 at the start of my turnset.

Originally posted by Beam
Indeed, BK is set at no growth...

[br] 134.01 KB[/size=1]

Originally posted by Shabbaman
Thanks for the pointer Beam, at least I learned something new today

Originally posted by socralynnek
So, ok, what to do with the Scientist:
Taoism is surely nice, if we spread it to all our cities after going after Cathy, it is a nice sum.
But Philo doesn't help us much atm.

Building an academy in our best town is a nice boost for research.

I am unsure, both is good but I think an academy might help us more than another religion, although that can solve our happiness problems too by building more temples.

Originally posted by grahamiam
alright, my fault as I never use goveners

Originally posted by Beam


quote:Originally posted by grahamiam

alright, my fault as I never use goveners



I propose we do not use them in the SGOTM as well. Although Firaxis did a pretty good job imo it still is not optimal for this kind of play. More suited for on-line games.

Building an acadamy is a very valid option cause it will have long lasting appeal.

Originally posted by BCLG100
Id build the acadamy, i know im not playing but i can still chat along cant i?, you already have the religion you dont NEED another one whereas the acadamy will help for the rest of the game.

Originally posted by Samson
I reakon the accademy. It would give us about 5 beakers per turn ATM, about an extra 20% on our reaserch. We do not need taoism (you see we will have Christianity soon).

Make sure you taje BK off avoid growth!!!

Originally posted by socralynnek
We don't own that religion yet (btw, comments from lurkers are very welcome)

But we'll go after Cathy somewhat soon.

Originally posted by socralynnek
Downloaded the save, will play now and build that academy!

Originally posted by socralynnek
190 BC (0) - Set avoid growth in BK off.
Move Scientist to Thebes.
Make binary research for my turns.

175 BC (1) - Build academy in Thebes.

160 BC (2) - Gandhi says hello (without seeing a unit)
I guess it is because Judaism has spread in Riverside and Gandhi is the one who has the holy city and has it as a state religion.
We can't declare war so I guess that is the one we have locked peace with.

So, long term thinking : wiping off Cathy and then spread Judaism and convert to please Gandhi.
Just an idea.

We could give CoL to Gandhi, he could give IW&Hunting but won't give Poly, Alpha and Calendar.
He doesn't have Curr, no money trade.
He has 6 cities and his civics are: UnivSuffrage(! -> Pyramids), Barbarism,Slavery, Decentralization, Organized Religion

I give him Horse (which we won't need in the next 10 turns) for Silks.

145 BC (3) - Argh, when I looked at a War Chariot, there was nothing like Requires Horse, but now that we don't have it, it says that it is required.
We can build something else...
Thebes is building a Settler for getting Silver into our hands.

85 BC (7) - Using the whip in BK.

70 BC (8) - Gandhi asks for CoL, decline.
Cathy wants to give Sugar for Fish. Make that deal, when we have a Plantation of our own, we can cancel it.

55 BC (9) - Construction is done. Set research to 0% until the end of my turns, then the team can decide if we go for Alpha, IW (which we could trade), Curr, Monarchy...

I think BK should be building a Settler after the next growth, or it should go for GP.

40 BC (10) - We can trade CoL and Constr to Gandhi, still he only gives Hunting and IW. Next one can decide if we make one of those two deals.
All our cities have Hinduism.
We should build a few more units (2-3 cats, maybe 2 Swords if we make that deal and have iron) and then go get Cathy.
Or we could first research Alphabet and trade techs with her before, at least she has Calendar, but if she doesn't have contact with anyone else, she won't trade anyway.

Originally posted by Samson
I think we should go for Monarchy. We can keep our pop growing without the hard limit on city size.

There is some value in not getting hunting, 'cos it stops us building wariors I think, and wariors are good for MP. Do we have any need of it?

Originally posted by socralynnek
If we indeed as you suggest go for Monarchy, then you must be thinking of Hereditary Rule.
Then warriors for MP are good otherwise we don't need them because only one unit per city is then needed.

OTOH, we 'll then come to the point where health limits our growth.

Originally posted by Beam
Good to have contact with another AI!

I guess we have contact with Gandhi because Judaism has been spread, not the other way around. Gandhi can see Riverside now which is "contact" imo.

We have 2 quality techs to trade so care is needed. IW is interesting because of Iron > Sword but only if we have Iron so some sort of gamble. Also for Junglechop which is only needed once we are in Russia.

In Diplo we are +5/-3 with Gandhi, the -3 because of Religion. Afaik the more happy a civ is with you the more likely they want to trade techs. So converting to Judaism would make it more likely we can trade the other techs as well. Which has a penalty cause cities without the religion loose a happ. Imo in the long run having the same reli as our pet civ is the way to go, the only city that can spread Judaism is Riverside which would need a Jewish Monastary. Short in hammers that would mean a lot of whips to build both the Mon and the Misses.

We are first in pop, mgf and crops. Imvho good but GNP still sux big time. Besides not a single scientist is used in cities where a lib is build. BK for example is fat on food and hammers, growing like hell and crashbuilding a Coll but only contributing a pathetic 3 net commerce.
Growing to size 9 and completing the Coll can be better balanced imo. Fish'n chips and Thebes are working FPs without a cottage. Copperfield is another hammerheaven but commerce nightmare. Removing a couple of hammers and adding some coastal tiles will only have a moderate effect on production and allows a scientist plus +1 in size (-1 health is no issue) and commerce.

Heriditary rule and warriors is a great combo imo!

To summirize I'm a worried about the commerce and resulting research. Overall me thinks we do a good job!

Originally posted by grahamiam
Samson -> UP
bedhead -> on deck
Beam
barbu
Shabbaman
grahamiam
socralynnek

I'm too beat tonight to cutnpaste to CFC. Could someone else take care of that in the morning? Thanks

 

[grahamiam]

All quotes are from Tuesday, May 30th (cont'd)

Originally posted by Samson
OK, I shall play now (so this is a got it).

I am going to trade CoL for IW only.
I shall start work on Monarchy.

Originally posted by Shabbaman

Originally posted by Rik Meleet
This might help against blocked sites at work : http://www.peacefire.org/

Either that site is down atm, or they blocked that one too [banned]

Originally posted by Samson
PFC - Put 2 scientists in BK. Move boats towards Cathy. Change reaserch to Monarchy (11 turns @ 50%).

IBT - Gandi golden age ended! Wow he was quick to 3 GP (1 for shrine). Cathy Adopts HR, at least we should get a discount on Monarchy. BK grows. I put a priest to work there.

25 BC (1) - Workers start cottage near Riverside. One in west starts cotage for Westside, other one heads East (that is were the work is needed).

IBT - Settler done. Start on settler? Catapult done in CF, start on catpult.

10 BC (2) - Worker to FP for cottage for theebs. Settler towards Clam Chowder.

IBT - I forgot to do the trade. However Gandi comes to me to offer Calender for CoL. He also has Monarchy. I decide we have to have Calender. I decide against the IW trade. A forest grows near theebs.

5 AD (3) - Found Clam Chowder, starts on granery. Costs us 6 extra, makes 2 (3 once it gets trade route).

IBT - Kong Maio built.

20 AD (4) - NADA

IBT - Library done in Westbank, start on Axeman.

35 AC (5) - 2 workers start cottage between Riverside and FnC.

IBT - Cataput finishes in CF, start on Catapult.

50 AD (6) - NADA

65 AD (7) - After much deliberation, I move a worker onto a forest for Westbank, I want to chop a bit of milatry.

IBT - Cathy offers open borders, yeah right. Another forest grows near CF. BK finishes Colloseum and starts courthouse. I change it to workboat (we need 2).

80 AD (8) - Worker starts chop, another starts cottage for CC.

IBT - Catapult finishes in CF, Start on 1 more.

95 AD (9) - 2 workers start another cottage between Riverside and FnC.

IBT - Monarchy finishes. Institute Hereditry rule. Start on Currancy (Up for discusion). Axeman finishes in Westside, start on axeman (will finish with chop in 3).

110 AD (10) - Axeman towards Cathy.

Decisions -

What to reaserch? I like currancy, gives us 1 extra trade route (8 gpt) and markets for the extra gold that we are likely to need when we take russia (and an extra happiness for the silks if we get then back after we declaire war).

Trade techs? We could get Poly, Hunting and IW from Gandi for construction. Gandi will not trade Alphabet or HBR.

In 2 turns we could move 4 catapults, 3 axemen and 3 War chariots into Cathys teretory. Do we want to? I say yes!!

Save at http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CDZ_SG001_AD0110_01.Civ4SavedGame

BTW, have you tried http://anonymouse.org/

Originally posted by Shabbaman
That forest grew next to the forest that's already there I assume? Could anyone explain briefly what conditions you need for forest growth?
I'm OK with currency, but marketplaces are expensive. I don't have civ4/reference chart here, but if we switch to hereditary rule, can we still use the whip then?

BTW, it might seem I'm eager to use the whip, but I never use the whip in my usual games so it's more that I don't know a thing about it and am very curious.

P.S. Anonymouse works, it's really slow though. I'm under the impression that the sites I can't visit aren't really blocked, but that the server/virus scanner here has some issues with the sites in question. Internet browsing is ehm, "peculiar" here anyway. The reason I think they're not seriously blocked is that I know that some gambling sites (and probably pr0n as well) is really blocked, and that you get a message saying that if you have a problem with the site in question to be blocked, that you may write a letter in triplicate to the secretary-general.

Heh.

Besides, very, very, very occasionally the sites do work, as in, twice the past year.

Originally posted by Samson

Originally posted by Shabbaman
That forest grew next to the forest that's already there I assume? Could anyone explain briefly what conditions you need for forest growth?
I'm OK with currency, but marketplaces are expensive. I don't have civ4/reference chart here, but if we switch to hereditary rule, can we still use the whip then?

BTW, it might seem I'm eager to use the whip, but I never use the whip in my usual games so it's more that I don't know a thing about it and am very curious.

HR is the Govenment civic, Salvery is the labour civic, so we can still whip. Yeah they are expensive, but make a big difference when we have to have our tax rate up to ~80% which I tend to get in my games (possibly not this one though as our GNP is much better than I normally have).

Along these lines, if we could get open borders with Gandi we may get some foregn trade routes and a bit more money. They MAY be broken if we make war with Cathy, but may not if Gandi is not involved.

No idea how forest growth works. It is always next to an existing forest.

Originally posted by socralynnek
Forest growth: On an empty tile (i.e. without improvements) a forest can grow if it is next to a forest. More forests nearby means a higher chance. And I think the climate settings influence the chance.

Currency seems a good idea. We need markets, cause it also gives happiness.

When we got rid of Cathy we got two holy cities which could give us a nice sum of money for our research.

Originally posted by grahamiam
I'm fine with Currency next. After that, we should go towards Optics to get the caravels out. Oh, and let's smash cathy [hammer]

Originally posted by Beam
Currency > Optics fine with me. Although I posted earlier on to time the attack later most of the reasons for that are gone (contact with other AI and we can settle Silverado in the upcoming turnset). So fire at will! [uglyham]

The units in CF are not promoted yet. We could promote one (like WC > Combat 1), move it on the jungle and make the promotions based on what is in St. P? A WC with retreat could be usefull to soften the stack if there are strong units with a chance of survival.

Originally posted by Samson

Originally posted by Beam
The units in CF are not promoted yet. We could promote one (like WC > Combat 1), move it on the jungle and make the promotions based on what is in St. P? A WC with retreat could be usefull to soften the stack if there are strong units with a chance of survival.

I would not promote any until we need the promotions (you know you can promote it when it has no moves left). Flanking is pretty good for WC's, esp. when they get the second one (>50% withdrawl). I would give most of the axemen City Raider.

Re. Movement, I would get Open borders first, move into her teritory with a WC, then only if the first city looks takable should we declaire war. Then we can move the 1 move units into her teritory. 1 turn of bombardment, then we should be able to bombard 3 times (zero defence bonus) and attack with 1 cat.

Looks like Bed Head gets the first exciting turns. I shall have to wait till the next war I suspect.

Any more thoughts about trade? The more I think about it I would like to get IW and Poly, Gandi may get Construction any time. Not sure about hunting, while we are at war wariors are a usless, and after war we are likely to have a fair few units so we may not need more.

Originally posted by grahamiamGiving Ghandi construction for Poly and IW is fine with me. The extra shields from an Iron tile would be of great use right now. Plus, we need it to plant a plantation on the calender lux.

btw, what techs does Cathy have that we don't?

Originally posted by Samson

Originally posted by grahamiam
btw, what techs does Cathy have that we don't?

Neither us nor Cathy has Alphabet, so I do not know.

[EDIT] She must be pretty advanced though. She has had Calender for a good few turns (30 odd?), and had Monarchy before us.

Originally posted by socralynnek
I think, if we do the deal, we should get hunting, too.
For MP purposes we hopefully have enough other units.

 

[grahamiam]

All quotes are from Wednsday, May 31st

Originally posted by bed_head7
I don't think I can give this my full attention until Thursday. Beam, do you want to go ahead and play?

Originally posted by Beam
110AD: open the sav and check if Cathy still will open borders. She will, even better. Cathy has Alphabet! [dance] Techs (all tradeble):
- Poly
- Hunting
- Alphabet
- HBR
- IW

Same techs as Ghandi but he does not offer Alpha and HBR. Trading with both will give us every tech except HBR which isn't really needed atm.

Q: postpone the war 1 turn and check if Cathy has more techs to trade?

Made the trades with Ghandi and Cathy, agree Open Borders with Cathy. Move a WC to St.P and see an Axe and 2 Archers.

IBT: Ghandi offers Open Borders. Accepted for relationship.

125AD: Cathy has Phil. and Construction. No trading options. WC moves further into Russia and sees Axe, Spear, 5 Archers and Settler in Moscow.

140AD: Galley sees Spear and 2 Archers in Novgorod, WC sees Spear and Archer in Rostov. Yaroslavl still needs to be located. Theebs completes settler > Silverado (S of silver). CF completes Pult. Only one horse seen in Russia so Axe in Theebs (will be a virgin cause no rax) and a Spear in CF. No techtrade options.

155AD: Lib in FnC > Duct health is -3 and foodtiles transfered to commerce tiles if not yet done. Westbank chopped Axe to Spear as a Horse security. WC on the way back sees Tao misses in Moscow. Ankor next?

170AD: Looked like [sleep] at first. Then a galley meets Persia at Newfoundland and sees Yarolavl on the SW tip of Russia.

138.38 KB[/size=1]

Jerxes is willing to open borders. Looks ok to me cause the galley can continue exploring and Silverado can be settled next turn so little risk there.

Finally the score (I'm halfway through turns and sleepy so continued tomorrow):

10.02 KB[/size=1]

Originally posted by Shabbaman
No idea. I'd say no.

Originally posted by grahamiam
trade like a crack whore with Cathy, but definitely get Alpha. At the end of the war, we may let her live 10 more turns if she coughs up another [evil]

Originally posted by socralynnekYes, I'd say postpone. Each tech we get before beating her done, we don't have to buy in a different way...

Originally posted by Beam
Always wanted to be a crackhore but never got the opportunity. [tongue]

Here is the diplo tech after the deals with the-soon-to-terminated. The most interesting tech is Mono for OrgRel (+25% for buildings but higher upkeep).:

60.46 KB[/size=1]

Iron near Sweet Spot!

Sign open borders (still in 110AD) and move it to the hill next to St.P:

137.17 KB[/size=1]

Axe with Combat I + 2 out of the box Archers + a mjammie Plato!

I think we need to do some maths:
- As far as I can see no Walls. []
- 40% city defense, needs 3 pults.
- 25% hills defense
- Assume all units have +25% fortification.
- Axe is +10%, another +50% vs. Melee (like our axes). Say 5.5 +50% is about 8.3 if not against an Axe.
- Archer is +50% city defense and +25% hills defense. Say 5.25 +50% is 7.9.

Assume attack sequence:
- 3 pults > defense goes 40 to 0 %
- +10% WCs attack 3 times vs. 3 times say 8.1. Best case imo is 1 win (the Axe really best case) and 2 losses, 2 of Cathys units at say 3.9.
- 2 Axes attack with City Raider is 6.25 and winnable.

Best case scenario imo, but it leaves us with just 1 damaged defender in St.P and if all 3 WCs die we simply do not have enough units to take St.P in one turn. Which leaves Cathy enough time to move new units in St.P and we are standing both with our pants down and our fly open.

If we wait until completion of the pult in CF there are enough units for a full 2 strikes in one turn and even better the 4th pult with Barrage I will still do damage if it dies.

A more conservative scenario is to postpone a little longer and build swords, we could build those as well while trying to hold St.P.

Lat but not least our reserves. They are nada, niente, none. In a worst case scenario we can take St.P but Cathy retaliates and retakes which leaves us warriors defending against Horsies.

Imo 5 turns from now we can have hooked the Iron and can rush Swords if needed, made the pult, made 1 or 2 Spears and are in a much more comfortable position to rock 'n roll. Meantime a WC can scout Russia and make an assessment of Mil. strength. Imo again, if the team feels I should attack now or in 1 turn or so I'll do that.

Edit: corrected calculation of defense strength, not in our favor.

Originally posted by grahamiam
catapults will reduce city defenses by 15% of thier total. I know the math doesn't look right, but 15% of 40 is 6, so 3 of them will reduce the defenses by 18% each turn. If you want to take out the defenses in one turn, we need 4 catapults with city raider + accuracy upgrades as the accuracy gives you +10%, so the catapult reduces def. by 25% instead of 15%.

Anyways, 4 is the magic number for cats, because you can take down city defense by 90% in 1.5 turns using 4 cats on the 1st turn and 2 on the 2nd and then using the other 2 to attack the stack on the second turn. Once they get promoted to accuracy, I don't use them to attack stacks, just to knock down defenses.

Originally posted by grahamiam
also, it appears we need more units, so just build more ASAP. Maybe the next turnplayer does the war, or maybe you wait till turn 5 or so before starting.

Originally posted by grahamiam

I think we need to do some maths:
- As far as I can see no Walls.
- 40% city defense, needs 3 pults.
- 25% hills defense
- Assume all units have +25% fortification.
- Axe is +10%, another +50% vs. Melee (like our axes). Say 5.5 +50% is about 8.3 if not against an Axe.
- Archer is +50% city defense and +25% hills defense. Say 5.25 +50% is 7.9.

Ok, now I'm spamming but you're overthinking this stuff.

- Axe is +10%, another +50% vs. Melee (like our axes). Say 5.5 +50% is about 8.3 if not against an Axe.

Yes, but our axe gets +50% too, so that's negated. Give him a cityraider upgrade and we attack with a strength of 6 (5 + 5*.2), he defends at 6.75 (6 + 6*.35). 2 city raider axes will cut him down.

- Archer is +50% city defense and +25% hills defense. Say 5.25 +50% is 7.9

Archer strength is 3. So we have a total defense of 6 (3 + 3*(.5+.25+.25). Attack with WC's with combat 1, giving us a 5.5 unit and discounts thier first strike ability.

Also, why do you want to build Spears? Do they have lots of horsemen?

Originally posted by Beam

Ok, now I'm spamming but you're overthinking this stuff.

Maybe I am but with a narrow margin it helps to know what the odds are.

Yes, but our axe gets +50% too, so that's negated. Give him a cityraider upgrade and we attack with a strength of 6 (5 + 5*.2), he defends at 6.75 (6 + 6*.35). 2 city raider axes will cut him down.

You're right about those +50% Melee eliminate each other, also agree about the City Raider but the Axe in St.P gets +.10 for Combat I, +.25 for the hills and +.25 for assumed fortification makes 5 + 5*.60 = 8. Sorry I made the mistake of doing one of the bonusses on top of the others.

Archer strength is 3. So we have a total defense of 6 (3 + 3*(.5+.25+.25). Attack with WC's with combat 1, giving us a 5.5 unit and discounts thier first strike ability.

Sorry again I made the mistake of doing bonussed on top of each other but iirc the archer gets city defense of +.50, hills defense because on a hill +.25, hills defence because of ability +.25 and assumed fortification +.25 makes 3 + 3*1.25 = 6.75. Lower as originally posted but as said I put the bonusses on top of each other.

Also, why do you want to build Spears? Do they have lots of horsemen?

Dunno yet but there are the fastest and most offensive units Cathy has and at least one is visible. So imo it is not unreasonable to expect a few.

Originally posted by grahamiam
ah, I see I screwed up the numbers too We'll be alright when you attack. Just approach from the jungle tile and let the axeman run out and try to disconnect the copper. Killing him will be easier in the open

I think your plan to build up more is the right one. Hopefully, we can start the war soon, but no worries if it takes another 10 to get ready. We just need to get rid of her before LB's.