SGOTM 02 - The Real Ms. Beyond

[Kodii]

Kodii has now checked in

Summer school is over! And now I'm ready to get some real gaming done.

It looks like all of my ideas have already been discussed regarding the beginning of our game. I'm all for exploring using the settler. Having skyrocketing maintenance costs at the beginning of the game is never a good thing. (Stagnation anybody? )

We're going to need to have a good defence in this game, especially with Raging Barbarians AND Aggressive Opponents. Should we go for Hunting and Archery to ensure we have defence? Or should we gamble and go for BW, hope we find copper by exploring, and build a worker to connect it?

It looks like Compromise has done a -lot- of pre-analysis. I think the workboat, warrior, workboat x3 is probably the best route as well.

As for religion, going for Confucianism or Taoism is nice, but if we want to ensure the religion in our -second- city, then we shouldn't build any other cities before then.

The playing order looks good, as long as you don't put me too close to the beginning

 

[Compromise]

Some thoughts. These summary posts are an *excellent* idea!

SUMMARY POST:

Roster (temporary for now - feel free to submit changes):
Regoarrarr (up)
BeefOnTheBone (on deck)
Compromise
EL_OSO
Kodii
ruff_hi
Snaproll
Zalson

Sounds good to me.

Diplomacy:
Rivals to meet: Unknown - we need to check this ASAP via the victory page once we get the save. Remember everyone is a potential enemy since we have to win by conquest.

True. But we may be able to eliminate them one at a time and so have temporary friendships for a little while.

Technology:
Mining->Bronze Working has been suggested. Masonry for palace move would also be handy, as well as generally making our way to Optics / Astronomy. Archery too since there are raging barbs, though if we have copper, axes would be better. Optics also require Machinery, which we'll need for Samurai (also Civil Service)

I really think we should do Hunting/Archery first. Here's my thinking:

1) we can delay settling the settler for much--if not all--of the 10 turns (100 beakers / (8palace+1citycenter+2coast) beakers = 10 turns till archery with some leftover beakers) it'll take to research Archery

2) One archer in a city can hold off anything that raging barbs can send at us on Monarch.

3) Getting that archer means we can research Pottery while starting on a worker. Then, we can set our worker to work making cottages while we build more archers to protect them.

4) Then, we can go for Bronze and take over the world.

Actually, I'm not sure which of Pottery or Bronze we should go for after Archery.

I do think that counting on Copper near where we happen to place our 2nd city is a bit risky. Especially with reduced research on a raging barbs map.

Settling:
It has been suggested we hold off on settling the 2nd city due to the huge distance maintenance (-7 gpt). Does this take into account that we're organized? It says -50% civic costs, though I don't know if that includes distance maintenance.

It's only civics (#cities and #pop) that organized reduces. I did the test with Tokugawa.

Builds:
I think workboat first in Kyoto is the obvious move. After that, probably another workboat or 2, though we'll also want a library in there. Heavy use of the whip. Don't be afraid to let it grow unhappy if we can whip it down. Try to whip every 15 turns.

There has to be something to whip, or it's not worth it. With all that food, Kyoto can grow so fast, it's ridiculous. But if it's isolated in the ocean, the only thing even remotely close to be built is a Library (which I agree should be whipped with unhappy folk when we get Writing).

Religion:
I think we want one. I'm not sure how the holy city is determined - anybody know? All I know is that whenever I play and found a religion with 2 cities, it always gets founded in the 2nd city (not capital). So that's good. We should probably try for Confucianism or Taoism

We may want a religion, but since we're going for a fast conquest win, I think our best strategy will be to take it from a neighbor!

Any other categories that should go in this?

How about: "Bad Jokes"? (Okay, that was self-referencial.)

 

[Compromise]

Oh...one other thought I had about city sites: I think we'll only build one more city max for the rest of the game. And that one will net us some Copper if we don't luck out and get it with our 2nd city. The rest of our Conquest-oriented cities will be built by the AI!

 

[Kodii]

Who shall be our appointed scribe?

 

[Compromise]

Okay, just one more thought and then I *really* need to get some other things done.

We could move the starting settler NW one square (on the coast, floodplains in immediate reach) and start a Worker and research on Pottery first off. We'll want to check this in a shadow game, but we might still be able to get Archery before the barbs converge.

I think the key to this game will be: who can get their economy under control before setting off on Conquest. I should reread Sullla's Epic 4 writeup before making too many more suggestions....

(Just Previewed and saw Kodii's post. I could be scribe if needed. My humor can be bad, though.)

 

[Zalson]

The only thing that I'm worried about, if we delay settling rather quickly, is that initial on-rush of the barbs. Without something to protect that settler, I'm pretty sure it will be toast. Barbs will show up later than on Epic 4, but... well, not long after. I think that in the beginning, it's okay to err on the side of caution.

As for the short opening turns format... while it might be better for gameplay in the long run, I dislike... forget diplomatic language, let's be blunt, shall we? We're gonna end up cluttering up the thread with 5-10 turn sets. Add in that this is Epic speed, and the first turnsets might end up driving us nuts. Striving for victory is fine, but lets not go too overboard.

That said, I think that hunting/archery is the way to go... but wait, Toku starts with hunting... so we're already there. I apologize if this isn't written in the most readable format, but I'm thinking as I'm writing. The pottery plan sounds OK, but I'm worried about risking it.

However, my input for the first time around depends on my Civputer being repaired... never again will I buy a computer from Fry's.

 

[regoarrarr]

@Compromise - but how big is the minimap? If the 2 points are at (27,44) and (139,59), going the other way (wrapping around the side of the map) seems like it would be shorter. I.e. if the minimap is 150 pixels wide, then instead of being 112 pixels apart horizontally, they're only 38 pixels apart. Make sense?

As far as Kyoto goes, one thing it can do once we get a library is run scientist specialists. That will help our research as well as get us a Great Scientist. GS can research juicy techs like Philosophy or Astronomy.

It also seems that the best thing is to take a religion from one of our neighbors, if there are any nearby. On Monarch, w/o Mysticism, there's no way we're going to get one of the early 3, even if we didn't have much better techs to research.

@All - I'm glad you like the summary posts. Please everyone feel free to use them - don't feel like you have to wait for me. Just copy the most recent one in the thread and update it with the latest things the group has mentioned. I did think of another category for the summary - Great People: How we're going to generate them and what we want to do with them.

@Compromise again - it's 100 beakers on normal speed, but this is Epic speed so it's going to be more than that.

@Zalson - Yes we don't have to play 5-10 turns in the early game, as long as the player is comfortable that they're on board with "the plan".

@Zalson again - Toku starts with Fishing and The Wheel

 

[Compromise]

@Compromise - but how big is the minimap? If the 2 points are at (27,44) and (139,59), going the other way (wrapping around the side of the map) seems like it would be shorter. I.e. if the minimap is 150 pixels wide, then instead of being 112 pixels apart horizontally, they're only 38 pixels apart. Make sense?

Yes good points, but the minimap autowidens to encompass the part of the world you've discovered. A normal size map is 84 wide. Since 37 is < 84/2, I assume it's the closer direction.

As far as Kyoto goes, one thing it can do once we get a library is run scientist specialists. That will help our research as well as get us a Great Scientist. GS can research juicy techs like Philosophy or Astronomy.

Yes! I forgot to mention that: Kyoto=GP Farm

It also seems that the best thing is to take a religion from one of our neighbors, if there are any nearby. On Monarch, w/o Mysticism, there's no way we're going to get one of the early 3, even if we didn't have much better techs to research.

@All - I'm glad you like the summary posts. Please everyone feel free to use them - don't feel like you have to wait for me. Just copy the most recent one in the thread and update it with the latest things the group has mentioned. I did think of another category for the summary - Great People: How we're going to generate them and what we want to do with them.

@Compromise again - it's 100 beakers on normal speed, but this is Epic speed so it's going to be more than that.

Agree with all. Yes. It will be 150 beakers, and 15 turns. Right about when the barb animals start showing up. (Those are good for archer xp!)

@Zalson - Yes we don't have to play 5-10 turns in the early game, as long as the player is comfortable that they're on board with "the plan".

@Zalson again - Toku starts with Fishing and The Wheel

Yes, I was just thinking 5 turns for the first turnset or two, when the critical decisions are made. Otherwise...it'll be 2008 before we finish.

Another possibility for regoarrarr's "Status Report": wish lists. Both for the civ as a whole "We need samurai! We need bureacracy!" and for individual cities "Kyoto:needs library and scientist specialists!"

 

[regoarrarr]

It seems like Kyoto will still grow slowly with 2 scientists running - so we may want to have that be our standard MO once we get all 4 seafoods hooked up. And it looks like fishing boats give 1 more food than crab boats, so we sh ould hook the 2 fish up first I think.

 

[Kodii]

Just to clarify a little bit, this is what we get by being Japanese:

Traits: Aggressive (Free Combat I for Melee and Gunpowder, double production of Barracks, Drydock), Organized (Civic Upkeep -50%, double production of Lighthouse, Courthouse)
Techs: Fishing (to Sailing + Pottery), The Wheel (Pottery)
UU: Samurai (replaces Maceman - Machinery & Civil Service - Iron) - Same as Maceman (8|1|70), but addition to 50% vs. Melee, we have 2 First Strikes
Favorite Civic: Mercantilism
And: A wonderful flag with a red dot

 

[Kodii]

Now my turn to spam

Here is a list of techs that want to get at some point in time in no specific order:

Archery (?) - Archers
Bronze Working (?) - Obvious Reason
Pottery - Cottages
Sailing (?) - Lighthouse (1/2 Price)
Writing - Library (Kyoto)
Optics - Caravel (Kyoto)
Machinery - Samurai
Civil Service - Samurai
Code of Laws (?) - Confucianism/Courthouse (1/2 Price)
Everything in Between

Of course, I left a lot out, so continue to add to this list. Some of the techs that we want to get will lead to other techs we want to get. For example, Pottery --> Writing --> CoL --> Civil Service.

 

[Compromise]

It seems like Kyoto will still grow slowly with 2 scientists running - so we may want to have that be our standard MO once we get all 4 seafoods hooked up. And it looks like fishing boats give 1 more food than crab boats, so we should hook the 2 fish up first I think.

Agree about running the scientists as soon as we can. 3 beakers is better than 2 commerce and the GPP are icing on the cake. We should definitely hook up the fish first, but the crab or fish next won't matter. With the fish, we get an extra food, but with the crab we remove one unhealthy point, so the end result is the same for feeding the 5th population point.

 

[ruff_hi]

And if we put a lighthouse (half price!) in Kyoto, then all sea tiles are +1F. So ... build order for Kyoto ...

fishing boat, warrior, crab boat, granery, fishing boat, library, crab boat, lighthouse

... with most buildings, boats, etc being whipped (when available).

 

[regoarrarr]

Well we're not going to hit the unhealthy cap at size 3, right? So it should be fish, fish, crab, crab. We'll want to whip the lighthouse and whip the granary and whip the library, of course.

I still am not sure of the best build order. But it does seem that we should be heading towards the top of the tree, which would indicate hunting / archery and holding off on mining / bronze

 

[regoarrarr]

And we're now in 2nd place in post count!

I find it funny that if you search this site for "distance maintenance", which I did to try and find out the formulas, nearly all of the threads returned are team SGOTM2 threads

 

[Compromise]

I find it funny that if you search this site for "distance maintenance", which I did to try and find out the formulas, nearly all of the threads returned are team SGOTM2 threads

Okay, now *that's* funny! Guess everyone has deciphered the screenshots.

And if we put a lighthouse (half price!) in Kyoto, then all sea tiles are +1F. So ... build order for Kyoto ...

fishing boat, warrior, crab boat, granery, fishing boat, library, crab boat, lighthouse

... with most buildings, boats, etc being whipped (when available).

We don't have Sailing on our desired tech list for quite a while, so no lighthouse for a while. More food won't help us either. We'll be stuck at 5 for a while. Until Monarchy or Drama at least. And we don't want to whip when we don't have to. On a plains hill, we can probably build a granary the old fashioned way. The library we will want to whip, though.

Well we're not going to hit the unhealthy cap at size 3, right? So it should be fish, fish, crab, crab. We'll want to whip the lighthouse and whip the granary and whip the library, of course.

I still am not sure of the best build order. But it does seem that we should be heading towards the top of the tree, which would indicate hunting / archery and holding off on mining / bronze

Once we get that fish hooked up, we'll be growing super fast even without a granary or a lighthouse.

 

[ruff_hi]

So - let it grow. What is the down side, some lazy so-and-so eating two food waiting to be whipped into a library (or similar)?

 

[Snaproll]

Ack! I can't keep up! 37 posts already!

 

[Compromise]

So - let it grow. What is the down side, some lazy so-and-so eating two food waiting to be whipped into a library (or similar)?

The downside is that extra population costs more in civic maintenance.

There is a point to be made, though: we are organized, so the extra maintenance won't cost too terribly much. Considering that we can run an extra 5.5 people before building a lighthouse (and 8 with one!), it will be noticeable if we just let Kyoto go as high as possible.

But, I think we'll usually be working the fish and using scientist specialists from the library, so it should be okay.

 

[Compromise]

I'll probably have some time tomorrow to play with Worldbuilder again. I'll try to whip up a shadow game again and post it here.

Also, would it be of any interest to anyone if I kept an updated shadow game going? Kind of like the "Big Board" in a war room. That way, if we wanted to run scenarios (e.g., can these 4 axemen take out those 2 archers most of the time?), we can use the shadow game to test it. It would take some work, because I'd want to update it with new information as that became available, but I might have the time to do it if there's interest from the team.