SGOTM 02 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

Maybe we need to just focus on economy instead and build an army and go chopping our neighbors to bits? Get them down to one city and extract techs and finish them off when the peace treaty expires.

Two problems with that strategy. The first is finding a metal to build an army with. As you say, in both our practice games, no Copper meant having to research Iron Working.

Second is no techs for peace without Alphabet. I think we'll be into the AD's before we see that?

I am thinking about building another scenario and trying to see how long we can go without building that second city? Once built, Mining goes from 10 to 15 turns and Bronze from around 18 or 20 to 33!
So we may pick up 20 turns by waiting. The question is, is it really worth it??

 

[rrau]

I looked at the pic again. You'll notice that there are two squares at both bottom corners of Kyoto where you can't see the food/gold. I'm wondering if it's not a lot closer to other lands than we think. If so, maybe we need to focus on establishing beachheads closer to home and let that settler/ warrior die if it's going to hinder us that much. All I know is I'm getting very frustrated trying these trials. It feels like playing Sid level to me. Seriously, it's NOT fun. I signed up for a monarch level game and this is playing harder than the Emperor games I've tried and lost.

[edit] If I do manage to get a second city up by the distant city, and an army, I can't afford a big enough one to take out the longbows and elephants and catapults my axemen are up against.

[edit 2] I tried a couple scenarios where I waited until bronze working or IW to settle. I survived the barbs only if I settled on the metal and had enough cash to upgrade the warrior. (that game I had failed to get stonehenge a turn or two earlier) Still ran into the trouble of not affording a big enough army to take out the longbows/cats

 

[DJMGator13]

Just catching up on the reading, I've been home for 2 days with food posioning and haven't even thought of turning on the computer. That should tell you how bad I've felt.

I like the Library idea for Kyoto and then set it up for scientist to get our Academy going we need research to power through the higher maintenance costs.

Based on the maintenance costs should we try to gear the 2nd city as another commerce city with some production power. If it can produce enough commerce to offset itself we can let Kyoto be our commerce/science powerhouse. Basically the second city becomes a target/distraction for the barbs to attack while Kyoto grows. I've not played a test game long enough to get to barb axes (I'll try a few today), the barb archers can be handled by hill fortified archers of our own.

 

[leif erikson]

I looked at the pic again. You'll notice that there are two squares at both bottom corners of Kyoto where you can't see the food/gold. I'm wondering if it's not a lot closer to other lands than we think. If so, maybe we need to focus on establishing beachheads closer to home and let that settler/ warrior die if it's going to hinder us that much.

This was Redbad's specualtion as well. In the first trial I posted, I allowed us to travel to continents after expansion of Kyoto. Once Kyoto expands, we should be able to see something??

All I know is I'm getting very frustrated trying these trials. It feels like playing Sid level to me. Seriously, it's NOT fun. I signed up for a monarch level game and this is playing harder than the Emperor games I've tried and lost.

Please don't get too frustrated. Gyathaar likes to make puzzles that we need to work on to solve. I appreciate your spending time trying some of the concepts out in these trials and discussing them.

Enough trials and we'll find something!!

 

[leif erikson]

Just catching up on the reading, I've been home for 2 days with food posioning and haven't even thought of turning on the computer. That should tell you how bad I've felt.

Does that ever stink!! Hope your recovery is short. We need some serious head crazy idea thinking at this point!!

I like the Library idea for Kyoto and then set it up for scientist to get our Academy going we need research to power through the higher maintenance costs.

Based on the maintenance costs should we try to gear the 2nd city as another commerce city with some production power. If it can produce enough commerce to offset itself we can let Kyoto be our commerce/science powerhouse. Basically the second city becomes a target/distraction for the barbs to attack while Kyoto grows. I've not played a test game long enough to get to barb axes (I'll try a few today), the barb archers can be handled by hill fortified archers of our own.

I hope you get a chance to try some trial games. There are so many factors working in this it makes your head spin, careful now!!

Seems to be almost a mathematical puzzle and there must be a simple answer??

 

[DJMGator13]

How long do the raging barbs affect the game? If we light up our area does that prevent them from emerging ala Civ3? We don't want to overbuild for them but we do need to the be able to handle their onslaught. If we have nearby neighbors getting out an early city and claiming territory/removing fog could be important. But based on the high maintenance cost this may not be a good idea either.

 

[leif erikson]

How long do the raging barbs affect the game? If we light up our area does that prevent them from emerging ala Civ3? We don't want to overbuild for them but we do need to the be able to handle their onslaught. If we have nearby neighbors getting out an early city and claiming territory/removing fog could be important. But based on the high maintenance cost this may not be a good idea either.

In the game save that rrau posted, the Barbs weren't bad as the Aztecs were real close to the south and lite that area so they couldn't randomly appear. As in Civ3, they appear in the fog areas, so lighting areas up by being on hills is a very good thing. That is also why it is good to have border expansion, it lights up that much more area, not so many Warriors needed.

The save below has some Copper not too far away, but not in the city plot if built on the starting tiles. It also doesn't have a civ too close, so Barbs will be a problem if the area isn't lit up.

EDIT - Got to go, be back in a few hours.

EDIT2 - corrected save, missed the flood plain.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

The idea that both rrau and I had of scouting for bronze/iron and plop down on top of it when we find it, is getting better the more I think of it. We lose 2-3 shields, but depending on what other tiles are available, that may not affect us for a long time. (If the bronze is on desert, it's the same yield with mining as a plains hill (iirc))

After that, maybe research Masonry (needed to move the Palace?) and set up for a Palace chop, after we get more cities in that area?

 

[rrau]

I just played a test game and was doing well until I got ganged up on by the AI's in about 1500ad . I didn't even try for the slingshot since It doesn't seem possible. I did get archery before going and getting BW. It let me have less garrsions to drain my treasury. I could get by with two or three archers in the town and then use the gold to speed research some. I did come very close to losing my town once, though when 3 barbs all attacked the same turn

I moved the palace while waiting to get samurai and I lagged on research, but my main problem was with only 3 towns, I just couldn't make units fast enough. I did take time to make the Heroic Epic in one of the towns. Maybe a bad choice?

I think one of the keys to getting as far as I did was the AI's were warring with each other alot.

 

[leif erikson]

@rrau - If you have any tests games you've built that you'd like to share, that would be nice because having been in world builder, I know what to expect...

 

[DJMGator13]

Just tried rrau's test game, I liked the shape of the land and having a nearby neighbors. Was able to light up the area with 4 warriors have only faced 1 barb archer and 1 warrior up to 1bout 1800bc. No copper in sight so I'll try one of the other test games. I think Redbad's speculation about having a source of copper nearby is important. Couple of questions, how have you been handling the overgrowth of Kyoto both for health and unhappiness? Also with only 1 FP how important is Pottery?

 

[DJMGator13]

Leif - your Trial4 has -9 maintenance instead of -7. Only allows 30% research could you adjust it.

 

[leif erikson]

Leif - your Trial4 has -9 maintenance instead of -7. Only allows 30% research could you adjust it.

I shouldn't be in such a hurry when I do this. Let me check it and I'll be right back. Sorry!

 

[leif erikson]

OK, now it is adjusted to be -7 maintenance. Sorry for the delay.

 

[DJMGator13]

Leif, I'm getting an invalid attachment note when I try to get the file shown above.

 

[leif erikson]

Leif, I'm getting an invalid attachment note when I try to get the file shown above.

I had to adjust the file a second time and reattach it. Try going out to the SGOTM thread and then go back into our thread and it should download fine.

 

[rrau]

OK, here's another test.

 

[leif erikson]

OK, Thanks rrau. Got it and off to try another.

I built a save with copper in it and almost made it to the Oracle, missed by 5 turns. However, I was way short on Code of Laws.

 

[leif erikson]

OK, here's another test.

Tried your game tested not settling imediately. The Settler popped a hut and got Mining. Had Bronze in 18 more turns and found Copper close to the starting position of the Settler. Founded the city to get the Copper and within 10 turns, was wiped out by marauding Barbs... Couldn't produce enough units to save myself as I started with a worker.

Guess exploring with the Settler is not a good idea either? Research is faster though...

 

[DJMGator13]

I tried leif Trial 4 after adjusting the desert tile to a FP. Here's the 625BC save. The Oracle was just built in a far off place. But I have 3 cities, a library in Kyoto, we're halfway to our first GP, we built Stonehenge (without a chop or marble), I have 8 warriors, 3 axes, and 1 worker. We're researching on Preisthood. I popped a couple of huts, no techs but got 66gold early and later a warrior which came after I lost a warrior to an animal. Barbs killed to date: 6 warriors, 5 archers, 4 animals. While only losing 2 warriors in defense, I disbanded another when we got over the free unit support level. Research is slow, I may play it out until I can get Alpha so I can see how far behind the other AI's we are.

The 625BC save

How does this compare with some of the other test games being played?

EDIT: No close neighbor to attack so not sure which why to proceed. Try pushing research or start some fighting?