SGOTM 13 - ChokoMisfits

EDIT: Good news on my test game with Polytheism instead of Meditation. I'm 2t into Masonry on t96 (t95 was Res 00%) and see that it will be completed in 4t on t99, making Masonry available on t100, exactly when we need it (assuming we start The Oracle in t100). shulec, run test games to be sure, but we seem to have Masonry in time using Polytheism instead of Meditation.

shulec, after finally executing it flawlessly in a test game, I can say your turn set plan is fantastic!



Thank you very much Ozbenno! I thought it was Sleepless that made that point earlier in this thread; perhaps it was you. In any case the Team is working together to plot out our Strategy and I'm by how well its been working!

Actually, I believe shulec allowed more turns for Priesthood than actually needed in his instructions, thus I'm completing Masonry 1-2 turns earlier than I expected via Polytheism.

Yes, I agree the first Work Boat after the one netting the 3rd Clam in Paris can peak around Marble for a few turns and then head East. Might make more sense to go West from Marble, but we know Victoria came from the East.

Sun Tzu Wu

In my test I got Polytheism at T100, but this did not affect the Oracle build.

I am going to run through my newest test game to make sure it is correct. I have limited time, but should be able to get through it before my wife kicks my ass!

Edit STW, it looks like I got my message out just before your edit!
 
In my latest test, I gave all AI a marble resource in their BFC on T66. Only Isabella was building the Oracle at turn 105, and had 9 turns left at Population 5.

I also researched Polytheism instead of Meditation. It did not affect the Oracle build. It did slow researching writing by 52 beakers.

I also found something in my test game that allowed me to get to T104 with population 6 in Paris, and the Oracle is available for whipping one turns sooner. In my first test game, I missed the opportunity to work a clam for 5F in Orleans when the lighthouse was first built. This gives same food for Orleans as if we worked the corn. This allows Paris to work corn for 5F instead of clams for 4F. I made the change to T92 to fix this. I have attached the test file below.

By the way STW, we do not whip the lighthouse in Orleans. You had mentioned that earlier.

OK, got it. I will play with your revised turn set instructions and stop on t104. We can decide later whether we want to whip The Oracle or not.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
OK, got it. I will play with your revised turn set instructions and stop on t104. We can decide later whether we want to whip The Oracle or not.

Sun Tzu Wu

I did not change Meditation to Polytheism on the test file either, as I believe we are still undecided.
 
I did not change Meditation to Polytheism on the test file either, as I believe we are still undecided.

I can't play past t75 in the Real Game, because that's when we must decide between Meditation and Polytheism.

Is your concern that choosing Polytheism over Meditation delays Writing and Mathematics each about 2t? Which may also delay The Colossus by 2t, if Mathematics isn't completed soon enough to utilize our two Mathematics boosted BFC Forest Chops?

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I can't play past t75 in the Real Game, because that's when we must decide between Meditation and Polytheism.

Is your concern that choosing Polytheism over Meditation delays Writing and Mathematics each about 2t? Which may also delay The Colossus by 2t, if Mathematics isn't completed soon enough to utilize our two Mathematics boosted BFC Forest Chops?

Sun Tzu Wu

The mathematics issue could be a factor. My brain hurts too much now to think and test that far ahead.

Meditation or Polytheism?
I don't have a strong opinion on either option at this point. I guess my reservation comes from that fact that the way I normally play, I need philosophy earlier than astronomy. This comes from me being more of a builder and less of a warmonger. I tend to warmonger more after Liberalism too. I generally research astronomy later. Please don't take this as an argument against Poly/Astronomy. I am just trying to give you insight to my comments. I honestly have no opinion on the Meditation/Polytheism track, so I will defer to those who have an opinion.

Oracle ready for whipping at T104
I ran through my newest test a second time with success:
Spoiler :


I didn't previously notice this, but in the screenshot, it says we get unhappiness for 32 turns by whipping the Oracle. This may be necessary to consider once we get to T104.
 
Rather than work GF, Paris can work the just finished GHM. Since a Settler is being built this can't affect growth, but may add an extra Hammer that will overflow into future builds.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Rather than work GF, Paris can work the just finished GHM. Since a Settler is being built this can't affect growth, but may add an extra Hammer that will overflow into future builds.

Sun Tzu Wu

I ran a test to see if it had negative effects. It turns out that if we do this, we get an unhappy person on T103, but we do not have enough hammers to whip the Oracle yet. We then actually have one less hammer overflow from the whip. I would advise against this move.
 
On Meditation/Polytheism, I like going for Polytheism if it will not delay the Oracle. Going Poly:

1) Opens the path to Literature for Great Library and Epics
2) Opens the path to Organized Religion (and Theology for AP) for later
3) Avoids opening Philosophy, which would enable us to bulb a GS towards Astro without needing Philo first

Not having Meditation means we would not be able to build monasteries, but I do not think this is likely to be a problem during this time frame. We will likely be able to trade for Meditation by the time we need it, or if not it will be a quick tech to self-research.

I also favor Polytheism for the reasons mentioned above. Ozbenno favors Polytheism, if it doesn't delay The Oracle which it doesn't. shulec's says he doesn't have a strong opinion either way which could be interpreted as neutral. That's three votes in favor of Polytheism and one that is more or less neutral (please correct me, shulec, if I misunderstood your latest post on this topic).

Anyone else who hasn't spoken up on this subject please do. The closer we get to a consensus, the better I'll feel about going with Polytheism.

Note: On the turn (99) we completed Polytheism in the test game, we needed only 10B to complete it. Given that we were getting 23 Bpt and at least 5-7 Bpt bonus for other AIs already completing it, we have at least a 0.6t to 0.67t buffer against missing such bonuses in the real game.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I ran a test to see if it had negative effects. It turns out that if we do this, we get an unhappy person on T103, but we do not have enough hammers to whip the Oracle yet. We then actually have one less hammer overflow from the whip. I would advise against this move.

I believe we need 90 of The Oracle's 225H completed to 3P whip it with Marble connected. We know Marble doubles the Hammers. It seems that whipping a Wonder halves the Hammers applied. Thus the Marble Hammer bonus and whipping Hammer penalty perfectly cancel each other leaving the standard 45H applied per Population whipped.

225H - 3 * 3P = 225h - 3 * 45H = 225 - 135H = 90H

At t103 in my test game, we had just 76H towards The Oracle. At t104, we had 20H more or 96H and can 3P whip.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I've decided to play t66 through t75 and upload the game.

This will give the other players who haven't spoken out about the choice between Meditation and Polytheism a chance to do so.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
We have Visitors:

Isabella pays us a visit in t68 via a Work Boat at 1-N 4-W of Paris, heading NE.

See attached screen shot. Note that Isabella has founded Buddhism, so there may be some chance of having Buddhism spread to one of our cities sometime in the future.

I plan to keep all 4 Ept on Victoria for now.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
OK, I think we all expected Isabella to be one of the AIs. From the west, interesting -- our exploration efforts can go either east or west with reasonable reason to believe they will find someone.

Also no surprise that Isabella founded Buddhism. Hopefully we will get some spread.

On the future military front, we need to plan to avoid fighting Spain during the era of Conquistadors and Citadels. Spain can be very dangerous during that period, with fast moving high-strength Conquistadors which get defensive bonuses combined with high-XP siege units.

Good luck with the turnset, Sun Tzu Wu.
 
Turn Set Report: Subset 1 of 4 completed: t66 through t75

Summary: Met Isabella. She founded Buddhism. Her Work Boat moved from our NW corner around our Culture and 2-W of our 3rd Clams. I do not believe she detected any of our Seafood (3 Clams and Fish). After 4t her Work Boat disappears. We have completed Sailing. We have the choice of Meditation (7.6t) or Polytheism (9.8t). Unlike our test game where Polytheism started out 10.3t and ended 10.16t in length and Meditation was 8.01t from beginning to end, in the Real Game, Mediation appears to be almost exactly 2.2t cheaper than Polytheism rather than 2.3t cheaper. To me that makes Polytheism slightly more desirable than before. Many more AIs have researched Polytheism than Meditation, probably because its on the way to Monotheism (Organized Religion). Meditation may for this reason have more trading value, but we want OR, Theocracy, Literarture (GL, Heroic Epic) more.

The Work Boat has not been moved yet, so we can decide whether to go East, West, or look at Marble location and continue West (my preferred choice at the moment) or East from there.

Screen shots show Isabella's last seen location, Meditation research bar, and Polytheism research bar.

Here is your Session Turn Log from t66 [2350 BC] to t75 [2125 BC]:

Spoiler :

Turn 67, 2325 BC: Orleans has been founded.

Turn 73, 2175 BC: Paris has grown to size 4.
Turn 73, 2175 BC: Orleans will grow to size 2 on the next turn.

Turn 74, 2150 BC: Orleans has grown to size 2.
Turn 74, 2150 BC: Orleans can hurry Work Boat for 1? with 8? overflow and +1? for 15 turns.
Turn 74, 2150 BC: You have discovered Sailing!

Turn 75, 2125 BC: The borders of Paris are about to expand.


Autolog.txt file content:

Spoiler :


Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 66/750 (2350 BC) [19-Mar-2011 23:19:03]
100% Research: 11 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 67/750 (2325 BC) [19-Mar-2011 23:19:03]
Orleans founded
Orleans begins: Work Boat (9 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 15 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Player contact made: Isabella of Spain

Turn 68/750 (2300 BC) [19-Mar-2011 23:24:16]
100% Research: 16 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -1 per turn, 15 in the bank

Turn 69/750 (2275 BC) [19-Mar-2011 23:38:19]
100% Research: 16 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -1 per turn, 14 in the bank

After End Turn:
Paris grows to size 3
Paris finishes: Work Boat

Turn 70/750 (2250 BC) [19-Mar-2011 23:39:13]
Paris begins: Work Boat (23 turns)
100% Research: 16 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -1 per turn, 13 in the bank

Turn 71/750 (2225 BC) [19-Mar-2011 23:44:32]
A Fishing Boats was built near Paris
100% Research: 18 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -1 per turn, 12 in the bank

Turn 72/750 (2200 BC) [19-Mar-2011 23:48:46]
100% Research: 18 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -1 per turn, 11 in the bank

After End Turn:
Paris grows to size 4

Turn 73/750 (2175 BC) [19-Mar-2011 23:51:05]
100% Research: 18 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -1 per turn, 10 in the bank

After End Turn:
Orleans grows to size 2

Turn 74/750 (2150 BC) [19-Mar-2011 23:53:57]
100% Research: 18 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -1 per turn, 9 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Orleans
Tech research finished: Sailing
Orleans finishes: Work Boat

Turn 75/750 (2125 BC) [19-Mar-2011 23:59:45]
Research begun: Meditation (8 Turns)
Orleans begins: Monument (45 turns)
Paris begins: Galley (15 turns)
Research begun: Polytheism (10 Turns)


The Save File is located here:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm13/ChokoMisfits_SG013_BC2125_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

I plan to break it up into a total of 4 subsets (unlike my previous plan) with this being the first one. I will try to complete the last 3 of 4 subsets through t104 sometime Sunday. There will only be maybe 3-4 hours between subsets, unless there's something that the whole Team must decide; in that case I will pause 24 hours for comment.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I'm good with going for Polytheism. Especially with the now lowered research costs.
I'd prefer to go down and have a look at the marble site, and then head east.

And you two are doing an incredible job with microing this start, I'm very impressed :goodjob:
 
I also favor Polytheism for the reasons mentioned above. Ozbenno favors Polytheism, if it doesn't delay The Oracle which it doesn't. shulec's says he doesn't have a strong opinion either way which could be interpreted as neutral. That's three votes in favor of Polytheism and one that is more or less neutral (please correct me, shulec, if I misunderstood your latest post on this topic).

Anyone else who hasn't spoken up on this subject please do. The closer we get to a consensus, the better I'll feel about going with Polytheism.

Note: On the turn (99) we completed Polytheism in the test game, we needed only 10B to complete it. Given that we were getting 23 Bpt and at least 5-7 Bpt bonus for other AIs already completing it, we have at least a 0.6t to 0.67t buffer against missing such bonuses in the real game.

Sun Tzu Wu

You read me right.

One thing, I see from the save that you have a work boat is in the build queue after the galley. I know you wouldn't miss this, since you noted that you missed this in the first test, but...you could put the monument in your build queue after the galley but before the work boat.

("Yeah, Peter, did you get the memo on the new cover sheets for the TPS reports? I can get you a copy of the memo. You see, we are using the new cover sheets for our TPS reports."
-Office Space)
 
My main reason for poly over med was the ability if we need it to bulb astro. Flip side if needed bulb edu - lib etc and take astro. So don't mind either route. Especially as we might not need astro.

I should have time to catch up (hopefully) tomorrow.

So carry on the good work Sun Tzu Wu :goodjob:
 
Meditation or Polytheism?

I'm good with going for Polytheism. Especially with the now lowered research costs.

OK, that makes 4-0-1 (Poly-Med-Neutral) so far. That's good enough for me to proceed with Polytheism. I will start the second of the four subsets (~10t each) of my current turn set shortly.

Work Boat Exploration Tasks:

I'd prefer to go down and have a look at the marble site, and then head east.

From marble, you want our first exploring Work Boat to go east toward Victoria, right? Since she visited us earlier than Isabella, she might be closer or her visiting WB may have been her first exploration unit and Isabella's visiting WB may have been her second exploration unit. Maybe, we should think of reasons for our first WB to go east or west. If our WB investigates the Marble area first, I'd prefer it to continue going West toward Isabella, simply to avoid the time it would take to go to the Marble area and come back to the Orleans area.

Kudos to shulec:

And you two are doing an incredible job with microing this start, I'm very impressed :goodjob:

I must give shulec all the credit really. He did should a great job on the PPP that replacing Meditation with Polytheism was the only significant improvement that I could add.

My PPP Execution Promise:

I promise perfect execution of the revised PPP. After all, I've run the test game enough to have made all the obvious mistakes and a couple glaring mistakes. Practice makes perfect. Also, I ran shulec's test games analyzing each change he made and understanding why he made them. I often do the same type of micromanagement in my own games, so it wasn't that hard for me to understand his changes. My difficulty initially was I made the mistake of assuming all changes would be explicitly stated, but the obvious ones weren't always stated. Also, I didn't have a clear understanding of all his detailed goals, though the major goals where clearly understood.

Encourage Everyone Interested to Run the Revised PPP on the Test Game:

With that said, I encourage everyone to run shulec's test game and latest PPP, unless micromanagement is something you don't do. Even if you were interested in learning micromanagement, shulec's PPP is definitely not a good introduction to micromanagement, because there's too much of it and obviously no explanation of why the Tile changes are being made, because its assumed that the player is an experienced micromanagement player.

I'm encouraging everyone to run the revised PPP, because I strongly believe that the best reason to play a SGOTM is to become a better Individual player as well as a better Team player. One of the nicest parts of us all becoming better Individual players is that will help improve our Team play as well. So much so in fact that the other Teams won't know what hit them when we win SGOTM-13. Thirteen is our "lucky" number. ;)

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Meditation or Polytheism?

You read me right.

Thanks for your confirmation of your Neutral vote on "Meditation or Polytheism?".

One thing, I see from the save that you have a work boat is in the build queue after the galley. I know you wouldn't miss this, since you noted that you missed this in the first test, but...you could put the monument in your build queue after the galley but before the work boat.

Thanks for the reminder to Build Paris' Monument via the Galley's 2P whip overflow:

Yes, you are right: I could have inserted a Monument build between the Galley and partially completed Work Boat in Paris' build queue. In any case, I will not forget to build Paris' Monument in the prescribed turn via Galley 2P whip overflow (a brilliant move I must say).

Sun Tzu Wu
 
My main reason for poly over med was the ability if we need it to bulb astro. Flip side if needed bulb edu - lib etc and take astro. So don't mind either route. Especially as we might not need astro.

Sleepless, I'm sure it was you that originally suggested Polytheism to bulb Astronomy earlier. Thanks for that or I may not have pushed as strongly for Polytheism or maybe not at all.

Can I take your comments above as a vote for Polytheism?

So carry on the good work Sun Tzu Wu :goodjob:

Thanks, Sleepless. As I've said before shulec ended up being responsible for my PPP, because he did such a good job there wasn't much left for me to add.

Oh, would anyone mind if I achieve a Conquest Victory by the end of my Turn Set? :lol: That doesn't seem fair as only three members of our team would have played turn sets. :confused:

Sun Tzu Wu
 
We still have:

Code:
Leader:     Rate   Tot  Dem  Res
=========  ======  ===  ===  ====
Victoria:   4 Ept  80E  52E  132E
Isabella:   0 Ept  00E  33E   84E

Dem = Threshold needed to see Demographics of Leader
Res = Threshold needed to see Research Target of Leader

I plan to continue with this to see Victoria's Research goal sometime in the future.

Please suggest alternative Espionage allocations or chime in with your agreement to the current settings.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Top Bottom