SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings

[mabraham]

Nice spreadsheet, I like it! Toward the end of the spreadsheet, it shows the Worker boarding the Galley, but the Galley sailing SE, SE. Would it not be better to have the Galley take the Worker to the island west of CC, so that he could chop the Forest there into the Settler build?

This is another thorny decision. On the back of our T93 galley whip, we could 2-whip the settler T99, or we could chop that western forest by T100 onto a warrior, to whip the settler T101 with about 40 overflow into the future. The galley goes to plant the (defended) stone city while the worker mines the western Ghill. Then the galley ferries the worker over to put the quarry+road on the stone (I assume). That gives CC a useful tile to work sooner, which is probably better than stone quarry to work sooner. CC still has a monument and maybe workboat or warrior to build (while getting happy again) before starting Duckweed-Pyramids, so stone resource access is not a top priority.

It won't affect bcool's turn set, anyway.

 

[mabraham]

All valid points....an option I am experimenting with would be to switch to a settler on T93(when you whip the galley), build settler for 2 turns and chop the forest you prechopped into it. The second of the 2 turns(when GF is chopped) work the Pmine, this allows a 3 pop whip of the settler and a 39H overflow back into the galley. I'm not sure if it is better or not. Another option is to sneak the Lighthouse in before the Settler build as that effectively adds 3 excess /t during that build.

All viable options. I do like the 3-whip idea, but getting the galley to have the worker putting up a new mine and chopping another forest seem at least as good.

The first chop does allow a 1-turn lighthouse after a galley whip, which I do think is a good idea.

One other thing I noticed and I'm not sure if it matters or not. Going to 0% on the science slider the same turn we whip away pop in cities may gain us a beaker here or there, again not sure.

We put out the same total regardless of the slider position, have no multipliers, and get the free at 0% slider regardless of population, so I don't see a population-based way to gain...

 

[Ronnie1]

The first chop does allow a 1-turn lighthouse after a galley whip, which I do think is a good idea.

This actually seems to work out the best. We get the galley early for worker movement and a bit of exploring, we get the LH in 1 turn, and the settler gets the 3 extra during construction.

Another option that I just thought of while writing this...after the LH, start on a forge until we grow to unhappy and then switch to a setter that gets either 2 or 3 pop whipped back into the forge.

 

[mabraham]

IMO, we will need to be very selective about which enemy cities we decide to keep, so as not to crash the Economy. That may lend itself to going for a conquest victory, but as you said, quite a few things are still to be determined.

Razing cities is certainly an option. Certainly small cities, or ones whose land will be included in other border pops.

In the game I played out, having captured the Great Lighthouse, I had 40 cities, 22 outside my core empire. That's more than enough population for Domi, but less than half the land. I'd been running 10%90% for ages and had 4000 stockpiled with 32/turn still coming in. It'd be better if the AIs I haven't DOWed would both talk to me. Only the wimpy one will OB, and I get only 6 trade routes from him. Anyway, I can take another 15 cities or so before I have to start thinking about paying the bills. Having fewer captured cities would not have sped up the game to this point, and spamming longbows and drafting muskets out of captured cities is legitimate profit, too.

 

[bcool]

Nice idea. The timing is tough to get decent odds on a GS... Sailing finishes about T91, when we probably need Masonry (to get the stone quarry going around T100) and then Writing (finishing about T110). Then we have to build a library (135) from (probably) just one Gmine+whip in time to get two scientists running noticeably before T144 when the GProphet pops. I can see Fish Hills building Workboat(T99), Warrior(T107), Lighthouse(1-whip T110) and we'd take about 10 turns to regrow to size 6 to 3-whip the library to run fish and two scientists with 2 excess. With about 25 turns of just the Oracle (2), we'd then run 14 turns of two scientists (6) plus Oracle (2) which makes for near enough to a 50-50 chance of either type (150 required).

Meanwhile CC built granary, lighthouse, galley by about T95, and has since built settler+warrior and is now chewing on a third settler while it gets happy again - no monument or further explorers yet. So the Duckweed position is not yet established and we're still in the map-dark.

Thoughts?

I was thinking small odds on the GS, 50-50 is better than I thought we would get. I think with the fish we will likely run into happiness issues in FH if we don't build a library here and run 1 or 2 scientists. I don't think we have to run 2 scientists all the time. It isn't critical to get a GS first, the settled prophet is pretty nice under representation.

Agree, fast Astronomy looks likely to be required. If so, then it makes sense to beeline that. However, do we want to try for Duckweed-GLib before that? Requires a tech path of Masonry-Writing-CoL-Aes-Lit-Machinery-IW-Compass-Optics, with Maths and Calendar worked in somewhere suitable,

Especially with Marble we should go for the early Great Library for sure I think. That tech path looks very promising right now.

We'd have to work hard at running any such specialists by about T150 when we'd get the GE...

That said, if we might build Pyramids, library, GLib, NE, theatre, GT, barracks in the capital, that forge will pay off earlier if we build it earlier...

There is something to be said for slowing empire growth before we've got the Pyramids to start paying for it all...

No, the early forge isn't bad at all. I'm on the fence here about the forge and GE and the mixed odds GP/GS. I hope we find copper/gold/silver/gems to make the decision easier.

I really don't see us having time to get a side city with infrastructure in time to get the Colossus by T170 or so.

Can we sacrifice infrastructure in one city for an early forge? Is the Colossus worth delaying an appropriate city's infrastructure? We can get away without a Granary maybe with the right city, go for a forge in a city with 3 food resources for a decently early forge whip?

Re: Globe Theater

I guess I was wondering if we could avoid the Globe Theater in the capital because especially with the Great Library it could be a very nice gpp farm.

The plan is early on it serves as the NE city and then we draft it down to size 6 when the time is right.

I guess I have a hard time seeing the city reduced in this way, but early domination game require these sacrifices I guess. Maybe we get lucky and we find another NE city really soon.

I understand the value of a theater and cultural slider, so yes the Globe Theater path isn't without benefits.
(Or maybe we even get really lucky and find an even better Globe Theater city )

 

[mabraham]

This actually seems to work out the best. We get the galley early for worker movement and a bit of exploring, we get the LH in 1 turn, and the settler gets the 3 extra during construction.

Another option that I just thought of while writing this...after the LH, start on a forge until we grow to unhappy and then switch to a setter that gets either 2 or 3 pop whipped back into the forge.

We should get the monument first for the extra , but Duckweeding the forge first is good if we plan a serious building program in CC (forge, mids, library, Glib, NE, barracks, theatre, GT).

We also need a plan to get our Caste-workshops built on those CC grassland tiles fairly soon.

 

[bcool]

I think there is a worker plan that is better. After Gmine, I was returning to Pmine to finish the road, and then chopping out the forest to coincide with the galley whip. CC still has to build settler+warrior for the third city, and lighthouse and monument are also begging to be built. All of that accelerates the Pyramids (our premium build) so the chop is definitely useful. It allows us to 1-turn the lighthouse before the settler, for example. Moreover, we get to load the worker on the galley right away, and get over to put a road on the stone before the third city is founded (or mine the western Ghill, chop its forest).

Okay the chop into the galley build is promising. Just wondering if it worth saving the chops to go into the pyramids with mathematics and stone? That would mean an effective 44 hammers assuming we have stone for all of the pyramids build instead of 30 hammers now.

The grass hill mine does seem more important than the road to the stone with the expectation of not starting the pyramids build for some time.

 

[mabraham]

I was thinking small odds on the GS, 50-50 is better than I thought we would get. I think with the fish we will likely run into happiness issues in FH if we don't build a library here and run 1 or 2 scientists. I don't think we have to run 2 scientists all the time. It isn't critical to get a GS first, the settled prophet is pretty nice under representation.

Sure. This plan does combine with CC-Duckweed hogging all the tiles at size 6, because FH is fine working fish+scientists+Gmine+coasts, and later fish+Gmine+coasts and whipping liberally.

Can we sacrifice infrastructure in one city for an early forge? Is the Colossus worth delaying an appropriate city's infrastructure? We can get away without a Granary maybe with the right city, go for a forge in a city with 3 food resources for a decently early forge whip?

I'm very lukewarm about copper-free limited-lifetime Colossus.

Re: Globe Theater

I guess I was wondering if we could avoid the Globe Theater in the capital because especially with the Great Library it could be a very nice gpp farm.

The plan is early on it serves as the NE city and then we draft it down to size 6 when the time is right.

I guess I have a hard time seeing the city reduced in this way, but early domination game require these sacrifices I guess. Maybe we get lucky and we find another NE city really soon.

Yeah. A GP farm is useless once we start waging war - we should be glad of a viable conversion plan. We win a medal for "fastest to become last man standing", not for "prettiest last man standing with the most Great People"

I understand the value of a theater and cultural slider, so yes the Globe Theater path isn't without benefits.
(Or maybe we even get really lucky and find an even better Globe Theater city )

In Australia, you'd hear "tell him he's dreaming!"

 

[bcool]

Darn to dream...a smallish island with 3 6-food resources and a farmed flood plains and a few forests to chop out the Globe theater

 

[mabraham]

Okay the chop into the galley build is promising. Just wondering if it worth saving the chops to go into the pyramids with mathematics and stone? That would mean an effective 44 hammers assuming we have stone for all of the pyramids build instead of 30 hammers now.

Getting a third city founded 10 turns earlier returns 30 hammers even working unimproved stone. That position offers accelerating gains from working more tiles sooner, and whipping sooner. The rate of return from the earlier Pyramids is somewhere between constant and linear with time, and starts later.

 

[Ronnie1]

This actually seems to work out the best. We get the galley early for worker movement and a bit of exploring, we get the LH in 1 turn, and the settler gets the 3 extra during construction.

Another option that I just thought of while writing this...after the LH, start on a forge until we grow to unhappy and then switch to a setter that gets either 2 or 3 pop whipped back into the forge.

The forge idea doesn't really gain us anything here, we are already unhappy if we start the settler immediately after the LH.

The change in worker moves that mab suggested definitely gains us a turn.

When we whip the Oracle in FH, if we work both mines the turn of the whip and after, we can cut the WB build to 4 turns. This also allows the corn to go to CC so the settler is getting max input. Then with a bit of tile swapping we can whip the settler for 2 pop on T101 with a 42H overflow for a jump start on the Forge or any build we deem appropriate. We should be able to plant C3 on about T104/105 depending on what we find in the fog.

 

[bcool]

I've changed the worker plan to chop the forest into galley build. I'll let the next person decide the best course after that. I will be stopping on T94 so they can change the tiles/builds etc.

 

[mabraham]

When we whip the Oracle in FH, if we work both mines the turn of the whip and after, we can cut the WB build to 4 turns.

Yep, that was the idea of the 5 overflow off the Oracle. 5+4x8=45.

This also allows the corn to go to CC so the settler is getting max input. Then with a bit of tile swapping we can whip the settler for 2 pop on T101 with a 42H overflow for a jump start on the Forge or any build we deem appropriate. We should be able to plant C3 on about T104/105 depending on what we find in the fog.

Sounds good.

 

[bcool]

Yep, that was the idea of the 5 overflow off the Oracle. 5+4x8=45.

Is that the new math?

(I know, I know with 8 on the whip turn and 4 more turns it works, but the equation was a bit funny)

 

[mabraham]

Is that the new math?

(I know, I know with 8 on the whip turn and 4 more turns it works, but the equation was a bit funny)

Yeah. I'm a computational chemist, not an arithmetician 5+8+4x8=45 FTW!

 

[mabraham]

I'm good with bcool's updated PPP now.

 

[bcool]

I'll try to play tomorrow night ~20-24 hours from now if I get confirmation from the majority by then.

 

[Ronnie1]

Looks good to me also....Fire when ready!

 

[Grifftavian]

This is another thorny decision. On the back of our T93 galley whip, we could 2-whip the settler T99, or we could chop that western forest by T100 onto a warrior, to whip the settler T101 with about 40 overflow into the future. The galley goes to plant the (defended) stone city while the worker mines the western Ghill. Then the galley ferries the worker over to put the quarry+road on the stone (I assume). That gives CC a useful tile to work sooner, which is probably better than stone quarry to work sooner. CC still has a monument and maybe workboat or warrior to build (while getting happy again) before starting Duckweed-Pyramids, so stone resource access is not a top priority.

It won't affect bcool's turn set, anyway.

Part of the reason I asked; I'm in the On Deck Circle. I'll keep these ideas in mind.

 

[Grifftavian]

I'll try to play tomorrow night ~20-24 hours from now if I get confirmation from the majority by then.

Looks good, Go! & Good Luck!