SGOTM 15 - One Short Straw

[ZPV]

Dhoom:
They all have Sailing for trade.
The scouting axe is fortified on a forest hill. It's safe as long as it doesn't move.
"lost war" negmods are irrelevant - war success is set to 0 when we DoP.
Yes, the forest is still on the chokepoint.

 

[Mitchum]

Nice work, ZPV. Are you planning to play a few more turns?

 

[ZPV]

Nice work, ZPV. Are you planning to play a few more turns?

Nope. It's time for you to coordinate the war on Hatty.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Well played, ZPV!

Looking forward, a few comments:
1. We now see two fogged tiles of white culture behind the mountains to the NE of Zlatorog. Half the AIs may be living in a parallel universe, separated from us by Diagon Alley.

2. Hatty does not have HBR = no WEs yet. We could DoW:
T106 + 0 with 1 spear
T106 + 1 with 2 spears
T106 + 2 with 2 spears + 1 pike

3. I don't think we need another pike in Osaka. The second one in GEL is probably enough, since our SoD will have 2 pikes + 2 spears.

4. Our Hammy SoD should have 2 xbows alongside the trebs, imo, for attacking minor cities with defenders such as a sword and a bowman. I'd even postpone finishing the Zlatorog pike to build a xbow. (Saves unit costs a bit.)

5. As soon as Hammy's second SoD suicides, it would be nice to block the entrance to the Hammy fishing village to prevent further garrisons from arriving, assuming he doesn't put garrisons in there now, instead of suiciding.

6. Toku's a freaking PITA.

7. NC's borders will expand, defogging a couple tiles to the NW. Should the wb go SW? It's more likely to avoid a freshly minted Hammy galley that way and perhaps more quickly divulge whether or not that landmass is an island or connected to us by a moutain chain.

8. I bet Hammy's future fishing village has seafood that we haven't defogged.

9. We need to watch Toku's worker and be ready to DoW/capture it in 3t.

10. ZPV, should Kyoto work sheep+corn this turn to maximize granary overflow?

11. We need a unit plan for Babylon and roads there.

12. Our warring is lagging. We have five available techs for extortion!

 

[LowtherCastle]

ZPV, what defenses did Elephantine have? It appears to have finished a build just now. HOw many hammers were in it? How many hpt was it running?

NOte that we might want to konw the AIs hidden (0,1,2) attitude factors and we might need your saves to do that with. Hopefullly, you made saves or still have the autos.

 

[ZPV]

Good spot, LC. That looks like German culture to me.

Elephantine had a C1 Shock spear, a C2 Woodsman1 Axe, and a CG2 Archer.
Elephantine completed a build at the end of t104; the sabotage production box has been empty since then (~30-35 hammers).
I did spot a (friendly) catapult moving towards Elephantine.

I have plenty of saves, and have every turn covered. Just let me know which ones you want/need.

There's fresh water on the "island", so I don't think it's small. Maybe it's our only way over the mountain range

 

[Mitchum]

Our current stack in Tokyo (plus the axe to the NE) consists of:

7 axes (our super-medic is the only unit C1 unit and should come up as first defender against a sword )
1 spear
6 cats

These units could move into position and attack on T107 by moving onto the cow resource. But I don't think this is enough.

In Kyoto, we have an additional:

2 axes
1 pike
1 treb
1 cat

These could be N+NE on T108 for a T109 DOW. I'd feel better with this option or waiting for a few more units. The bad thing is that they wouldn't arrive on the scene until six or more turns from now, which is probably too late... If we attack now (T109 actually) without treb support, we'll likely be stuck at the gates of Thebes bombarding for several turns. Are we okay with that?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Some pics for you, Dhoom, since your turnset is coming up in a couple of days.

Spoiler :

 

[LowtherCastle]

These could be N+NE on T108 for a T109 DOW. I'd feel better with this option or waiting for a few more units. The bad thing is that they wouldn't arrive on the scene until six or more turns from now, which is probably too late... If we attack now (T109 actually) without treb support, we'll likely be stuck at the gates of Thebes bombarding for several turns. Are we okay with that?

The trebs will catch up for Thebes, but really we need a xbow to protect our Medic, who will heal our units every stationary turn if attacked by a suicide cat. We could DoW on:

T109 with a xbow chopped and 1popped in Tokyo (costing us a granary)
T110 with a xbow 2popped in Osaka.

As much as I despise waiting any longer, I suppose the T110 solution is the best overall. The delay is really coming from our diverting units to Hammy and I'm not sure the delay is really delaying our overall campaign against Hatty all that much, since units have to catch up.

I would still DoW Toku on T109, though, if we can grab a worker.

And I would send all of our spears/pikes in the SOD on Hatty, leaving behind a Kyoto axe garrison, if need be.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Thanks for the answers, ZPV, and great job in playing! It seems that I cross-posted with the remainder of your turnset.

Half the AIs may be living in a parallel universe, separated from us by Diagon Alley.

Maybe one of them is Mirror Gandhi... Deity-level with Fast Workers, perhaps? Or would a Mansa at Deity-level be worse?

6. Toku's a freaking PITA.

Did we ever find his source of Horse? Maybe he was receiving it in trade or maybe it exists in the City that he owns (is that City his last City?). What about his Iron?

10. ZPV, should Kyoto work sheep+corn this turn to maximize granary overflow?

I guess that it depends upon how much Food we had in our Granary when we completed the Granary.

There's fresh water on the "island", so I don't think it's small. Maybe it's our only way over the mountain range

Ugh. Let's hope that the penalty for early war success doesn't turn out to be a number of hard-to-capture Wonders existing elsewhere in the world, sigh...

 

[Mitchum]

T106 to T110 PPP

Espionage:
Start putting more on Cyrus, while making sure we don’t lose eyes on Hatty and Hammy's demo data.

Research:
0% on Currency

Delhi:
Build trebs.
Grow to 10 pops. Work 2 more GRiv cottages as they become available. 20H base/turn. No whipping.

Zlat:
Switch to crossbow (finish in 3T) -> barracks -> finish pike
Grow to 9 pops then work two GRivHill mines (one just finished and another on-line soon at Zlatorog E+SE). 21H base/turn (unless we chop the deer forest). No whipping.

GEL:
treb (1 turn) -> finish pike -> whip treb for 3 then swords and 3 pop-whipped trebs
When growing from 3 to 6, will work sheep, corn, gold and then farm -> GRivHill mine -> GHill mine. Whip 6 -> 3.

NC:
temple (whip for 2 pops) -> OF into ToA -> finish WB -> ToA
City is approaching happy cap at 7 and will be in 2 turns and has one citizen working an unimproved tile. Should we consider 2-popping a temple? 3-popping a forge here would allow us to grow to 9 pops eventually… The unproductive citizen could become a scientist too… Whip every 10ish turns 8 -> 6.

Marble:
Cats. I’m not sure what to build here, but we need swords, cats and trebs. Since there isn't a barracks here, maybe cats are best.
Will grow on farms and GRiv cottages and eventually work the GHill River and GHill mines. 6H base/turn. Whipping city from 7 -> 5 would work growing on the 2 farms and 2 cottages.

Osaka:
xbow (2 pop) -> cat
Grow on farm and cottage (hamlet). Whip 4 -> 2. Grow city working farms and cottages.

Kyoto:
forge (3-pop) -> Great Library (T118/T119)
Citizens work max food -> 2 sheep -> copper -> cottages mines. I will share the corn with Tokyo from time to time with the goal of always working the power tiles (sheep, corn, copper).

Tokyo:
Granary (1 pop) -> cats.
Work corn (from Kyoto) copper -> farms -> cottages. Whip 4 -> 2. No whipping!

Deer Cow:
Granary (one pop) -> cats fail gold.
Citizens work deer, cow, GRiv cottages, GRivHill (S). Whip 4 -> 2 No whipping!!

Workers
Worker 0 (near Zlatorog): mine Zlatorog-E+SE and then road toward Hammy partial cottage at Zlat-2W -> road choke point -> road toward Hammy if safe
Worker 1 (near NC): cottage PRiv at NC-E -> finish grassland cottage -> road toward Hammy cottage Delhi
Worker 2 (near Tokyo): chop Tokyo-S -> road Tokyo-N+NE?? -> chop GLib -> road at Tokyo-2NE
Worker 3 (near Osaka): finish GEL partial farm shared with Osaka -> chop Glib
Worker 4 (near Delhi): road cow -> road cow-SW -> GRiv cottages for Delhi partial road -> mine Zlat-E+SE -> road toward Hammy if safe
Worker 5 (near Marble): finish cottage @ Marble-W+NW -> complete mine GHill @ Marble-W -> GEL for farms, mines, cottages
Worker 6 (near Deer Cow): road deer -> finish cottage @ DC-SW -> mine DC-S ->more DC cottages partial cottage -> road cow -> road cow-SW -> cottages for Delhi and DC

Units:
4 axes and 1 pike fortify the choke point. Once Hammy’s SOD is gone, stay put within cultural borders (keep costs down) until we have a proper stack to open the Hammy front.
xbow and pike pair check out wheat city after Hammy's SOD is gone. Take out bowman before he can fortify the fishing village.

MP units in all but Osaka. Axe stays in Kyoto for . Hopefully we have enough units coming up the road that we don’t have to worry about Hatty swarming with War Chariots around Tokyo.

All other units move toward Hatty with the plan of attacking on T110 with:

8 axes
7 cats
2 spear
1 xbow
1 pike
1 treb

Work boat explores around the southern edge of the land mass with the sheep, not cutting corners.

Leave 1 axe in Tokyo to capture Toku’s worker on T109. Axe/spear pair will capture Toku's worker on T109 if possible. Depending on what is in Toku's city, one of them will stay to threaten?? and the other will head toward Hatty. Leave the poor guy alone... for now!

Things to do each turn:
Manually save the game.
Watch F4 tech screen.
Watch sabotage building number in Elephantine
Watch for culture.
Keep enough on Hatty and Hammy to see demo data.
Watch to see what Hammy will give us for peace. Stop playing and discuss if it’s CoL or better.

Stop playing if:
We lose more than one unit at the choke point
T110 just before declaring on Hatty
Anything interesting comes up

Things are busy this weekend, but I could play on Friday if the team agrees... after requested changes to the PPP of course.

 

[LowtherCastle]

PPP looks excellent, Mitchum. Great work on creating it so quicky!

T106 to T110 PPP

NC:
finish WB -> fail gold on ToA (or National Epic?)
City is approaching happy cap at 7 and will be in 2 turns and has one citizen working an unimproved tile. Should we consider 2-popping a temple? 3-popping a forge here would allow us to grow to 9 pops eventually… The unproductive citizen could become a scientist too…

Good idea to whip the temple, I think. We'd like to have pop7 minimum there, so the temple let's us whip the pop8 guy once every ten turns. You could even build the temple now and 2pop it in 2t, put the OF into the ToA, then finish the wb. Or finish the wb with the OF and then less OF into the ToA. ToA should go soon, I'd think, much sooner than NE for us.

Marble:
I’m not sure what to build here, but we need swords, cats and trebs. Since there isn't a barracks here, maybe cats are best.
Will grow on farms and GRiv cottages and eventually work the GHill mine. 6H base/turn. Whipping city from 6 -> 4 would work growing on the 2 farms and 2 cottages.

Fine by me.

Osaka:
xbow (2 pop) -> cat
Grow on farm and cottage (hamlet). Whip 4 -> 2.

At some point we want to phase out the whipping here and grow to work cottages. Imo, that point would be when you think the Hatty campaign has enough units. I see no reason to send units from here to the west and Hatty cities should send units beyond, if it's not a dead-end.

Kyoto:
Great Library.
Citizens work 2 sheep -> copper -> cottages. No whipping.

We need to find out from ZPV if you should work the corn this turn to get the 2X OF on the granary. At pop3, you might consider working all the food here and growing asap to max hammers. We want to get the GLib asap. More important than giving the corn to Tokyo, I would think. Flow power to power. Kyoto is much more powerful than Tokyo.

Tokyo:
Granary (1 pop) -> cats.
Work corn (from Kyoto) -> farms. Whip 4 -> 2.

Not sure I'd use Tokyo for whipping unless we're really short of units. I'd grow it into cottages, simply because it's so short on food and hammers (just like Osaka). Not sure what others think, though.

Workers
Worker 0 (near Zlatorog): mine Zlatorog-E+SE and then road toward Hammy
Worker 1 (near NC): cottage PRiv at NC-E and then road toward Hammy

You sure we need two workers roading toward Hammy? I'm not doubting, just asking.

Worker 2 (near Tokyo): chop Tokyo-S -> road Tokyo-N+NE -> chop GLib

Not sure you realize this, but Memphis is 4NE of Tokyo, so we'll want to go straight on the diagonal NE. So we'll eventually want a road at Tokyo-2NE. (I don't see any need for the road at Tokyo-N+NE.)

Worker 3 (near Osaka): farm Osaka-NE -> chop Glib

GEL-E already has a partial farm that you could finish, saving us 3 wkr-turns. Osaka shares that tile.

Worker 5 (near Marble): finish cottage @ Marble-W+NW -> complete mine GHill @ Marble-W -> ???

Eventually GEL could use more mines, farms and cottages. Lot of work to do there.

Worker 6 (near Deer Cow): road deer? -> finish cottage @ DC-SW -> mine DC-S

I'd say, yes, road deer.

Units:
4 axes and 1 pike fortify the choke point. Once Hammy’s SOD is gone, stay put within cultural borders (keep costs down) until we have a proper stack to open the Hammy front.

Our workers will need an escort, so you might want to peek into his wheat city to see what's there. Plus, I think we really don't want to let him garrison hs fishing village, if possible. That's worth a coin in maintenance.

Watch to see what Hammy will give us for peace. Stop playing and discuss if it’s CoL or better.

The code might construe his FIshing Village to threaten Zlatorog (I some phenomenon like this in testing around GEL). SO you might need to threaten Wheat City from the SE to get that advantage in the calculations.

Things are busy this weekend, but I could play on Friday if the team agrees... after requested changes to the PPP of course.

I'm hoping you'll continue asap.

 

[LowtherCastle]

One option that I would heartily encourage, despite Dhoom's protestations, is a spy to beeline Babylon and attempt to get through Hammy to the Great Beyond. If the spy survives, he would give us a bit of info on Hammy's land, which can be very useful for our warring, and potentially info about Cyrus and Shaka. I'm not concerned about losing the 30h. IF it speeds up our battle with Hammy, that's already worth it.

I assume he would come after some roading toward Hammy to save those turns of movement.


Edit: This could dovetail with your two workers roading toward Hammy. Just keep them well protected, please.

.

 

[Mitchum]

If I don't comment below, I will update the PPP with your suggestions:

Osaka: At some point we want to phase out the whipping here and grow to work cottages. Imo, that point would be when you think the Hatty campaign has enough units. I see no reason to send units from here to the west and Hatty cities should send units beyond, if it's not a dead-end.

Cats are going to be our throw-away units with the hope that we don't lose many trebs or city attackers. So, I think we'll need a steady supply of un-promoted cats for a while. I plan to continue to build cats here until we've broken Hatty's back (i.e. captured Thebes and two other cities).

We need to find out from ZPV if you should work the corn this turn to get the 2X OF on the granary. At pop3, you might consider working all the food here and growing asap to max hammers. We want to get the GLib asap. More important than giving the corn to Tokyo, I would think. Flow power to power. Kyoto is much more powerful than Tokyo.

It's the food that overflows that gets counted double. So, if we don't steal the corn, we will be one food short of growing. On the next turn, every single food beyond the one needed to grow gets put into the granary twice. I can break it down in more detail if you want but it does matter how much food was in the granary on the turn is was completed (not the turn we whipped it).

You have to balance that with working the corn and growing a turn sooner, which may not have as much food overflow doubled, but it gets that third citizen one turn sooner.

I'm find either way and will update the PPP once we've analyzed it a bit more.

Not sure I'd use Tokyo for whipping unless we're really short of units. I'd grow it into cottages, simply because it's so short on food and hammers (just like Osaka). Not sure what others think, though.

Units built here are on the front lines as soon as they are built. It doesn't get any better than that. I'd like to whip here for a couple of cycles until we've broken the b!tches back...

You sure we need two workers roading toward Hammy? I'm not doubting, just asking.

No, one would suffice but I wasn't sure what to do with the workers. I guess one of them could head to GEL and the east but it seems better to keep at least two in the NW... I'm open to suggestions.

Not sure you realize this, but Memphis is 4NE of Tokyo, so we'll want to go straight on the diagonal NE. So we'll eventually want a road at Tokyo-2NE. (I don't see any need for the road at Tokyo-N+NE.)

Really? I thought it would be 1W of that based on the cultural borders... If Mephis has had two cultural expansions, wouldn't the tile our axe is standing on have Hatty's culture? Or was Toku's culture from Tokyo keeping it away and the borders haven't had a chance to expand yet?

Our workers will need an escort, so you might want to peek into his wheat city to see what's there. Plus, I think we really don't want to let him garrison hs fishing village, if possible. That's worth a coin in maintenance.

If we do that, I think an axe/spear pair would be better for the job... 2 coins...

 

[LowtherCastle]

We have an excellent cahnce of plowing through Hatty, Hammy, and Cyrus before encountering lbms at Shaka. Hammy doesn't have Monarchy yet and Cyrus doesn't even have Mysticism.

 

[Mitchum]

We have an excellent cahnce of plowing through Hatty, Hammy, and Cyrus before encountering lbms at Shaka. Hammy doesn't have Monarchy yet and Cyrus doesn't even have Mysticism.

Agreed. Pedal to the metal, right?

Our economy is in a bit in shambles at the moment and will get worse as soon as we start paying maintenance. We need some gold from capturing cities and for a cottage or twenty to start maturing.

 

[ZPV]

The granary is full - it's your choice whether you want the extra citizen a turn early in Kyoto or Tokyo. You'll sometimes want the corn in Kyoto for sure.

I guess swords will now be the right way to go, instead of axes, so that's fine by me.
The Deer doesn't need a road, in my mind.
I'd prefer an extra grass cottage in Delhi before the cow road.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Units built here are on the front lines as soon as they are built. It doesn't get any better than that. I'd like to whip here for a couple of cycles until we've broken the b!tches back...

That's fine. Her back is broken when we capture Thebes. Trebs will destroy all the other cities after their defenses are 0%.

No, one would suffice but I wasn't sure what to do with the workers. I guess one of them could head to GEL and the east but it seems better to keep at least two in the NW... I'm open to suggestions.

I'd like to get a spy going asap, so I'm fine with two workers. Actually, if you're stoping on T110 anyway, I'm not sure how far they get anyway...

Really? I thought it would be 1W of that based on the cultural borders... If Mephis has had two cultural expansions, wouldn't the tile our axe is standing on have Hatty's culture? Or was Toku's culture from Tokyo keeping it away and the borders haven't had a chance to expand yet?

Check it out. Zoom out from teh save and check out the culture view.

If we do that, I think an axe/spear pair would be better for the job... 2 coins...

The workers need protection no matter what. Once you've got excorted workers out there, you're also blocking Fishing Village from getting garrisons.

 

[LowtherCastle]

The Hammy roaders could be protected by a single xbow.

The deer road depends on where Deer Cow will sends its units. I'd prefer the fliexibility.

 

[ZPV]

The Hammy roaders could be protected by a single xbow.

The deer road depends on where Deer Cow will sends its units. I'd prefer the fliexibility.

Well, I guess it will have 5hpt at least. I thought Deer Cow would mainly be a cottage-working city, since we need the commerce.