SGOTM 15 - One Short Straw

[Mitchum]

The granary is full - it's your choice whether you want the extra citizen a turn early in Kyoto or Tokyo. You'll sometimes want the corn in Kyoto for sure.

Does that mean that on the turn the granary was completed (not the turn you whipped it) it had 12/24 food in it? It has 16/24 right now with +7F (+9F if it works the corn).

The Deer doesn't need a road, in my mind.

It's not needed, sure. But, we could have an option to trade the deer for something and building it now saves a worker turn climbing that hill later (if we ever do it). I'm fine either way but I think the partial cottage (3 turns left) gets done just in time since we grow in 4 turns...

I'd prefer an extra grass cottage in Delhi before the cow road.

It won't grow for 9 turns and is already suffering health issues. What's the rush on cottage first?

EDIT: PPP has been updated with LC's comments. There are a few OPEN ITEMS.

 

[Mitchum]

The Hammy roaders could be protected by a single xbow.

With horse archers on the loose? Are you sure? I would hate to lose 2 workers and a unit just trying to save 1 coin/turn... I'd prefer an xbow and a spear/pike.

 

[ZPV]

Does that mean that on the turn the granary was completed (not the turn you whipped it) it had 12/24 food in it? It has 16/24 right now with +7F (+9F if it works the corn).



It's not needed, sure. But, we could have an option to trade the deer for something and building it now saves a worker turn climbing that hill later (if we ever do it). I'm fine either way but I think the partial cottage (3 turns left) gets done just in time since we grow in 4 turns...



It won't grow for 9 turns and is already suffering health issues. What's the rush on cottage first?

EDIT: PPP has been updated with LC's comments. There are a few OPEN ITEMS.

I mean, you will get 12/26 free. The granary was completed a few turns ago.
Fair enough roading the deer. Maybe it'll come in handy.
I guess the road to the cow does make sense. You'll probably want two cottages after it (switching away from the floodplains) to stall at pop10.
Memphis is 4NE of Tokyo.

I forgot to say earlier: I like the PPP.

 

[Mitchum]

I mean, you will get 12/26 free. The granary was completed a few turns ago.

OK. The food overflow only works when the granary is built after the foodbox is past half full. in other words, you can never carry over more than half the food box at the population before you grow (12/24 = 12 in the case of Kyoto) no matter how much OF you have. The OF get's counted but not counted twice. I can go over an example if anyone cares but you can finish the granary after half full and still end up with a half full granary due to OF food being counted twice. Dhoom and I spent several hours working out the details about a year ago.

So I'll steal the corn back from Tokyo this turn to grow Kyoto a turn sooner.

You'll probably want two cottages after it (switching away from the floodplains) to stall at pop10.

Sounds like a plan. Then Marble can steal the FP and/or corn, but that's beyond the next turnset.

Memphis is 4NE of Tokyo.

Got it. I wasn't zooming out to see the culture and it looked otherwise from a worm's-eye view.

The PPP is updated.

 

[Mitchum]

OK. There are three OPEN ITEMS I'd like to discuss before playing. There may be more but I only know about three.

1. Is it really safe to capture Toku's worker? He's had iron and horses in the past, so he could easily have swords, axes and/or chariots in his city. If we capture with an axe, we could lose it to a chariot and lose the worker back to him and possible Tokyo. If we capture with an spear, we could lose to an axe. Plus, if we attack Toku, we could get a dogpile from Hatty and I'd rather dictate when the war starts. Plus, I'd rather not divert a single unit from the Hatty front unless there is a good reason to take on this extra risk.

So, with our power, number of cities and pop being so much higher than Toku's, what could we expect to get in a DoP and after how many turns would it be possible? 3 turns? If we can get a decent tech and a worker at the risk of losing the unit and having one less unit in Hatty's stack, then I'm cool with stealing the worker. If we can't get a good tech, then I'd say one extra worker isn't worth the risk.

I need to figure out how the value of DoP works. I've glossed over it every time it's been discussed in detail...

2. In Tokyo, since there are some decent tiles to work, does it make sense to one-pop the granary or just build it with one chop in 5ish turns (I don't have the game open for an exact number). In other words, with whipping would the city be able to grow and surpass the city if we don't whip it? Any help here would be good otherwise I'll try to figure it out tomorrow before I play.

EDIT: Upon further thought, I think it's better to one-pop the granary and grow back on the corn while Kyoto works the 2 sheep + copper (after growing to 3 at max food). If you take away the copper, the tiles around Tokyo aren't worth delaying the granary.

3. What do we want to do with worker 1 around NC? Do we want to finish the grass cottage (non-river) after the PRiv cottage? If we're going to grow this city to 7, it needs another improvement IIRC.

I think I have all other comments either addressed or included in the updated plan. If I missed something, please bring it to my attention.

I'd like to play to T110 tomorrow and then continue to play turn-by-turn as we march toward Hatty to see how the story unfolds. I think I have builds and worker actions planned out far enough to see us capturing Memphis and marching toward Thebes.

 

[Mitchum]

Maybe I'm wrong, but the pace of this game seems quite high.

T102 (325 BC) - Colossus
T103 (300 BC) - Stature of Zeus
T103 (300 BC) - GLH
T105 (250 BC) - Chichen Itza

The 'Mids went early too.

Does this spell impending doom? Or is it time to shift out of second gear?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Not sure I'd use Tokyo for whipping unless we're really short of units. I'd grow it into cottages, simply because it's so short on food and hammers (just like Osaka). Not sure what others think, though.

If we have to gift that City away in the future to someone, like Cyrus, then we'll have to recapture the City. Unless we plan to recapture the City on the turn that we gift it away, we will want to ensure that the City is whipped down to Size 1 at that time, so as to prevent the AI recipient from whipping.

So, once we're ready to keep the City for good, it makes sense to keep its population up, but until then, we'd just be investing turns into improving Cottages that would not get worked again for quite some time after we've regrown the captured City past Size 1 again.

Thus, there isn't much medium-term gain for growing several Cottages (and short-term gain is rarely appliable to Cottages), so I'd be fine with a regular 2-pop-whipping cycle there.

With horse archers on the loose? Are you sure? I would hate to lose 2 workers and a unit just trying to save 1 coin/turn... I'd prefer an xbow and a spear/pike.

Not only that, but AIs are highly deterred by attacking a stack of 2 (military) units relative to a "stack" of a single military unit. Definitely bring along a Spear or Pike.

1. Is it really safe to capture Toku's worker? He's had iron and horses in the past, so he could easily have swords, axes and/or chariots in his city. If we capture with an axe, we could lose it to a chariot and lose the worker back to him and possible Tokyo. If we capture with an spear, we could lose to an axe. Plus, if we attack Toku, we could get a dogpile from Hatty and I'd rather dictate when the war starts. Plus, I'd rather not divert a single unit from the Hatty front unless there is a good reason to take on this extra risk.

If he only has 1 City, we might get other opportunities to steal a Worker.

Stealing with only 1 unit in use is not safe, as you point out, as we could easily lose our thief unit, lose the Worker, lose the opportunity to steal the Worker in the future... it just doesn't sound like we're willing to commit enough units to justify the risk.

If we want the Worker that badly, we should plan to commit 1 Spear + 1 Axe to the task, otherwise forget about the Worker thievery until later.

3. What do we want to do with worker 1 around NC? Do we want to finish the grass cottage (non-river) after the PRiv cottage? If we're going to grow this city to 7, it needs another improvement IIRC.

As long as there are no other Riverside squares, then doing so is an option. We don't necessarily have to commit to completing that Cottage if a better location (Riverside) is available, as we can just as easily pretend that we'd forgotten to use that Worker action and thus pretend that we'd wasted it on a Worker moving to its destination.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the pace of this game seems quite high.

T102 (325 BC) - Colossus
T103 (300 BC) - Stature of Zeus
T103 (300 BC) - GLH
T105 (250 BC) - Chichen Itza

The 'Mids went early too.

Does this spell impending doom? Or is it time to shift out of second gear?

More and more, you're making me regret us not having gone for a Great Engineer for gifting purposes for the Apostolic Palace--with most of the other Wonders gone, there would be little remaining for a Great Engineer to complete (except for the Hagia Sophia), which would have been the major danger factor with gifting such a unit (i.e. the AI deciding to build a stupid Wonder with it instead).

To be honest, I often feel that AIs are scripted in a manner so as to plan when a Wonder will be completed and start work on it early enough for it to be completed by a certain date. It wouldn't be too hard to program in such behaviour, so you often see multiple Wonders get built by AIs around the same time as each other when you are not competing with them for Wonders and aren't involving them in wars.

On the plus side, a Cultural Victory doesn't get all that easier when the AIs are rapidly completing the World Wonders out from under you, meaning that any other team that goes for that Victory Condition won't necessarily have an easy time of it.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

For now, we want to continue to focus on pressing our military advantage against AIs with Archers.

However, later, we might want to consider spamming Settlers + Hindu Missionaries. It might be feasible, especially for AIs without a Holy City of a differing Religion, to actually convert to Hinduism if they are suddenly gifted 8 or so Hindu Cities.

We will also want to check what criteria are required for getting credit for Liberating a City... for example, is Culture needed by an AI in such a City? If so, and if Hatty will be our eventual Voting Buddy, then perhaps gifting her a ton of Hindu Cities (later on in the game) would get her to convert to Hinduism and then have the Cultural Borders of said Cities expand enough for us to get credit for Liberating the Cities to her for future gifting purposes.

Liberating/gifting a City happens one City at a time, so there is a practical limit that an AI will accept (I think that ZPV ran some numbers on the subject earlier), but if we just want to get an AI to switch to Hinduism, we could feasibly gift them a whole ton of Cities at once as part of a Peace Treaty, as there is no practical limit to how many Cities you can gift in that manner. You would not get any Liberating credit, since the AI "won" the Cities via the war, but you might potentially tip the scale of Hindu population owned by said AI such that they convert to Hinduism.


An AI converting to Hinduism has relatively limited uses, but one possible use is to prevent a particular AI from completing the Apostolic Palace. If Hinduism becomes an AI's State Religion, then the AI will halt all current construction on a Buddhist Apostolic Palace. They can still pick up where they left off if they later revert to Buddhism, but this tactic might be one way that we can use to help control who does NOT build the Apostolic Palace... say, if it's an AI that we are able to meet but not easily reach... since, one of our ultimate goals is to be able to capture the City in which the Apostolic Palace gets built, and it will obviously be easier to capture if a nearby AI (such as Hammy) builds it for us.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Another thought on marginal Cities (like Tokyo) with Cottages:
Recall that unless you're about to Strike (and therefore need Commerce NOW more than you need more Commerce over a period of time), it is preferable to first grow on Farms (or Resource squares) and only later work Cottages, given infinite Worker turns.

I have no idea what the improvements around Tokyo look like, but Farms before Cottages, particularly if we'll be whipping and may have to give away the City at a future time, is generally going to be better than slow-growing by working a few Cottages.


Overall, since it does not look like we're trying for a Great Person in GEL, I'm pretty hesitant for us to try and get Theology in trade, due to it unlocking Paper.

It could still turn out that we'll want a surgical strike of Galleons to capture the City in which the Apostolic Palace gets built, so the longer that we can keep open the possibility of an Astronomy Lightbulb (say, powered by getting Philosophy for Pacifism via pointy-stick research), the more options that we will have.


As for sending out a Spy, there are two sides to such a coin:
a) If we meet other AIs, they will be likely to dog-pile us
BUT
b) If we meet other AIs, we'll have the option of gifting them a massive amount of Hindu Cities via a Peace Treaty in the hopes of preventing such an AI from being the one to build the Apostolic Palace (but practically, we can only pull that trick on one AI, since the Cities will be locked in the hands of said AI for 10 turns of Peace and building TOO many Size 1 Hindu Cities really isn't going to be feasible). Still, it would at least be one possible reason to send out a Spy.


If we do send out a Spy, we'd want to stay out of AI Cultural Borders as much as possible, to reduce the chances of it instantly dying.

 

[LowtherCastle]

As I see it, Kyoto is planning to complete the GLib on T116. As I further see it, by whipping a forge first and some fancy MM we can get it on T117. Up to you Mitchum... The main benefit of the forge is that it raises our happy limit so we can then consider working a couple sci or the cottages + mines or whatever.

---

If the map is 52x52 donut, then we're 17 E-W tiles from circumnagivation. Did the anal retentive mapmaker prevent that too?

.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Well, I guess it will have 5hpt at least. I thought Deer Cow would mainly be a cottage-working city, since we need the commerce.

Actually, so did I.

@Mitchum/OPEN ITEMS plus+

1. First, a bit of a reality factor. Our deficit is currently -3gpt. I calculated that on T110, this will increase to about -11gpt, including unit costs, supply costs, hamlet/cottage growth, and citizens working tiles. On T110 we'll probalby have about 70g in reserve, so -11gpt lasts ~6t. Presumably we'll capture Memphis on T112 or T113, depending the number of units and whether it has walls and is on a hill, etc. Memphis, while under resistance, will increase our costs by ~5gpt, empire wide. (Costs increase somewhat in all of our cities.) Out of resistance, our cost will rise another 7gpt, not including inflation, which is now upon us.

Thebes will increase costs another 6+9=15gpt after resistance.

So in the next 10-12 turns our deficit spending will increase roughly 40gpt. That will burn through CaptureGold like wildfire.

Food for thought. Our CaptureGold will be sporadic because the map dictates slow warmongering. Basically, we'll have to rely mostly on not having a deficit. That means we need to increase our cottage income by another 40gpt or so in the next 12 turns. After that, expenses are going to mount only more rapidly.

2. Looking at our new cottage possibilities:
Delhi = +2
NC = +1 (already being worked for +1cpt)
Marble = +1
Osaka = +1 hamlet on T113
Kyoto = +2 hamlets, but not worked till T116 at the earliest, plus Kyoto is underpopulated without a forge
Tokyo = ?
Deer Cow = ?

That's a grand total of 7 new cottages = 14 gpt << 40gpt.

My conclusions are:

I.
Marble: Grow to pop8 (~17t), work fp+2farms+2cottages+3mines, the worker there cottages, then mines
Osaka: Whips a xbow, then grows and works farms/cottages (plus corn as often as possible)
Kyoto: 3pops forge, completes GLib, grows to work cottages (+fancy MM to get GLib T117)
Tokyo: whips granary, slowly grows, using the 2 farms mostly, and works cottages when possible
DC: whips granary for optimal overflow, grows, works cottages, builds FailGold

II. Figure out how to get Currency asap, despite all odds, so we get more TRs, rip AIs off for gold, build gold, etc.

III. Find out if the western landmass is an island and if so, settle for 2X TRs.

IV. Keep warmongering.

3. Zlatorog
Hammy is sending a shock bowman, probably to garrison Fishing Village. He will obliterate our axe at 74% odds. Solution: Immediately build xbow in Zlat, either completing in 4t + road the chokepoint -or- completing in 3t (= work 2f1h instead of 3f1c). Our xbow will obliterate the bowman at 98.97% odds.

4. OPEN ITEMS:
Tokyo/Kyoto: This is a complicated optimiaation problem. I haven't figured out what's best for Tokyo in terms of when or if to whip the granary.

Zlatorog: our axe/spear should stay away from killer bowmen.

Steal Toku worker: Play it safe, I guess. Problem is, will Hatty bribe Toku to war? Then we have 2x the WillingToTalk interval. If the worker moves to road the northern forest, then our spear/axe pair could capture and join our SoD on T110, btw.

 

[Mitchum]

As I see it, Kyoto is planning to complete the GLib on T116. As I further see it, by whipping a forge first and some fancy MM we can get it on T117. Up to you Mitchum... The main benefit of the forge is that it raises our happy limit so we can then consider working a couple sci or the cottages + mines or whatever.

Forge -> GLib is a no brainer if it only delays the GLib by 1 turn. I was worried about the happy cap in Kyoto. I'm going to have to cheat on this one. Let's see your "fancy MM" notes, smarty pants!

 

[Mitchum]

Yes, I was concerned about our economy when I looked at the last save in which we have pretty much no unit maintenance with a plan of building even more units.

Marble: Grow to pop8 (~17t), work fp+2farms+2cottages+3mines, the worker there cottages, then mines

Growing this city to 8 pops and working the mines doesn't bring in that much more income. I'd like to whip 6 -> 4, 7 -> 5 or possibly 8 -> 6 but regrowth would be slow in this last case. Plus, we need units if we want to war monger. Maybe 7 -> 5 is the best bet since it allows us to work the GRiv Hill for an extra coin.

Out of curiosity, how many more pop empire wide are required to support one additional unit in maintenance cost?

Osaka: Whips a xbow, then grows and works farms/cottages (plus corn as often as possible)

OK. But Shyuhe is going to have to pry the whip out of my hands after putting it firmly there in SGOTM 13.

Kyoto: 3pops forge, completes GLib, grows to work cottages (+fancy MM to get GLib T117)

Need the notes, Mr. Fancy Pants.

Tokyo: whips granary, slowly grows, using the 2 farms mostly, and works cottages when possible

OK, but warring is going to be tougher without getting these front-line units...

DC: whips granary for optimal overflow, grows, works cottages, builds FailGold

Roger that. Extra commerce was how we justified building this city in the first place.

II. Figure out how to get Currency asap, despite all odds, so we get more TRs, rip AIs off for gold, build gold, etc.

There is no way we're going to self-research the tech manually any time soon. Hopefully Hatty has it soon.

III. Find out if the western landmass is an island and if so, settle for 2X TRs.

Should I put the OF into the WB then? Or is extra OF in ToA better?

IV. Keep warmongering.

Now you're talking.

3. Zlatorog
Hammy is sending a shock bowman, probably to garrison Fishing Village. He will obliterate our axe at 74% odds. Solution: Immediately build xbow in Zlat, either completing in 4t + road the chokepoint -or- completing in 3t (= work 2f1h instead of 3f1c). Our xbow will obliterate the bowman at 98.97% odds.

I missed the shock bowwman... Will a xbow in 3T plus a road get there in time? Where is said bowman?

4. OPEN ITEMS:
Tokyo/Kyoto: This is a complicated optimiaation problem. I haven't figured out what's best for Tokyo in terms of when or if to whip the granary.

If Kyoto keeps the corn and/or copper, Tokyo doesn't have that many great tiles to work. I "think" whipping the granary for 1-pop will come out ahead by 3 pops.

Zlatorog: our axe/spear should stay away from killer bowmen.

Roger that. Xbow to the rescue.

Steal Toku worker: Play it safe, I guess. Problem is, will Hatty bribe Toku to war? Then we have 2x the WillingToTalk interval. If the worker moves to road the northern forest, then our spear/axe pair could capture and join our SoD on T110, btw.

What do we think we can get in a DoP? That spear/axe pair or one of them, depending on what we see in his city, will have to stay to threaten the city for maximum extortion value, right?

BTW, I'm not worried about Hatty bringing Toku into the war. I'm worried about the other way around.

 

[Mitchum]

I think I have the plan updated with all comments. Please verify that I caught them all.

Open items:

1. Steal Toku worker?
2. Work non-river cottages in NC? My guess is "Yes!" due to the state of our economy...
3. Others?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

OK. But Shyuhe is going to have to pry the whip out of my hands after putting it firmly there in SGOTM 13.

You could always revolt out of Slavery... then you'd have no choice but to avoid using it.


As for getting more Gold in the short term... Hmmm, we can't build Warriors anymore, which is a shame, as otherwise we could try to get some Gold from more-than-double-the-Hammer-cost whip overflow. Then again, with Forges subtracting bonus overflow Hammers, I'm not sure how much more-than-double-the-Hammer-cost whip overflow we could actually keep.

There is still Failed Gold from World Wonders via Forest Chops that we may want to consider cashing in on (seeing as how the World Wonders keep getting built), assuming that we have any Forests remaining to us...

Did we ever Pillage the Hamlet to the E + E of Osaka?

Are there other improvements that we could consider pillaging?

If we're desperate, we can delay warring so as to avoid Unit Supply Costs by keeping more units within our Culutral Borders.

DC: whips granary for optimal overflow, grows, works cottages, builds FailGold

Just to clarify, we mean that Hammers overflowing from a Granary will go into a World Wonder like The Temple of Artemis (assuming that it has yet to be built by that time), right?

Should I put the OF into the WB then? Or is extra OF in ToA better?

Probably into ToA or another Wonder if ToA gets built. It sounds like we're about to become desperate for cash. Finding out that a City to the west can give us 2-Commerce-per-turn Trade Routes is useful info, but we'd still need to get Sailing, build a Galley, and build a Settler... then ship the Settler over there... possibly with a City Defender if there are Barbs on the island like there were in the test saved game (assuming that it's an island--if it's not, then we won't be settling it)... so, if you ask me, there is no major rush on getting an exploring Work Boat completed... it'll just add to our Unit Costs AND Unit Supply Costs that much sooner, anyway.

We might even want to consider delaying the completion of the Work Boat until it is about to lose Hammers, since that extra bit of info won't be of use to us until we learn Sailing, while the cost of that info is expensive.

BTW, I'm not worried about Hatty bringing Toku into the war. I'm worried about the other way around.

Agreed. Toku being bribed to declare won't result in a horde of units coming our way when we are unprepared for them. In fact, Toku not being willing to talk for a number of turns could be a meaningless point if he hardly sends any units our way.

If Hatty gets bribed into war, though, we might have trouble getting Capture Gold and may have to protect our own Workers from being picked off.

2. Work non-river cottages in NC? My guess is "Yes!" due to the state of our economy...

I'm not sure what the alternative is, but the answer is probably "yes," since it sounds like every Gold coin is soon going to count.

 

[Mitchum]

I did a quick analysis on the best way to build the granary in Deer Cow:



The left side shows a 1-pop whip option and the right side shows the no-whip option. By T118, both options are almost exactly the same with respect to food (+1F for the whip option). Whipping has only 16 cottage commerce vs. 26 for the no-whip option, but it has 28C OF of fail gold. Whipping is also 11H ahead. Small advantage of 5 extra turns of cottage growth, which will give it an additional +5C down the road to the no whip option.

I'm inclided to whip the granary on T111 and then grow DC on cottages. Cool?

BTW, I checked into whipping the granary one turn later (T112) but then the granary would be finished when we had 18/24F @ +6F. We'd grow the next turn with zerp OF, so the granary would only have 6/26F on T114 and be 6F behind (and 1 pop) when whipping it when I propose (T111). If there were OF food, whipping it on T112 might have turned out better...

EDIT: Whoops. I missed the +5H from T111 on T112 in the whip option, so we'd actually have 38 fail gold...

 

[Mitchum]

@ Dhoom

We should be able to get Sailing in a DoP from Toku, but I'm not sure. I'd prefer to just finish the WB after putting OF hammers into a wonder.

The current wonders we can dump fail gold into are:

National Epic
The Great Library
Parthenon
Notre Dame
Temple of Artemis
Shwedagon Paya

If Kyoto is going to be building a forge, we could put OF into the GLib. Otherwise, which order should I be using for fail gold?

 

[Mitchum]

I "think" I have the granary optimized in Tokyo with the goal of giving the corn to Kyoto this turn and working the copper instead. On the next turn, Kyoto takes both the corn and copper (power to power) and keeps them while Tokyo only works farms to grow.

After whipping the granary for 1 pop at 13/24 F +3F on T113, we have 16/22F +3F on the turn the granary is completed. Conventional wisdom says that when we grow to 2 pops, we'll only have (22-16 = 6) 6F in the granary. But wait! We'll have 19/22F on T115. If we steal the corn on this turn, we can use the OF trick.

On T114, we put the +3F in granary storage. On T115, if we steal the corn, we'll put another +6F into the granary storage for a total of +9F. But wait. At 19/22F +6F, there is +3F OF, which also goes into the granary storge. 9F + 3F = 12F -> 11F in the granary, which is the maximum you can have in storage. 11F > 6F conventional wisdom tells us.

When we grow to 2 pops, we should have 11F granary storage +3F OF = 14/24F (not 6F + 3F = 9/24F). We pulled +5F out of the air. It could have been +6F but we had to limit the granary storage to 11F... PFM!!

EDIT: I could rework the numbers working farms non-stop instead of the copper on T106, but we're already maximizing the OF and working as many "Power" tiles as possible...

 

[LowtherCastle]

If we had put hammers into the forge instead of the GLIb, we could have done it by T117, but I made a mistake in my prior calculations and I can only get it by T118 unfortunately. And that's with non-optimal usage of our resource tiles. T119 with optimal usage. Here are the two variants:

     Kyoto                                  Tokyo
     Food  Hammers pop fpt                  Food   
T106 16/24   0/120  2   +9  Corn+Sh5        12/22 
T107 13/26   2/120  3  +11  +Sh4            14/22 
T108 24/26   5/120  3  +11                  16/22 
T109 22/28   8/120  4  +10  +mine1          18/22 
T110 18/30  14/120  5   +9  +mine2          20/22 
T111 27/30  23/120  5   +9                   0/24 
T112 21/26 122/120  3  +11  Corn+Sh5+Sh4     2/24 
T113 19/28  48/350  4  +11  +copper          6/24 [COLOR="Red"]chop[/COLOR]
T114 14/30 140/350  5   +1  Sh4+3mines+cop  13/24 [COLOR="red"]mined chopped[/COLOR]
T115 15/30 243/350  5   +1                  20/24 
T116 16/30 279/350  5   +1                  15/26 
T117 17/30 315/350  5   +1                  23/26 
T118 18/30 351/350  5   +1                  18/28

     Kyoto                                  Tokyo
     Food  Hammers pop fpt                  Food   
T106 16/24   0/120  2   +9  Corn+Sh5        12/22 
T107 13/26   2/120  3  +11  +Sh4            14/22 
T108 24/26   5/120  3  +11                  16/22 
T109 22/28   8/120  4  +10  +mine1          18/22 
T110 18/30  14/120  5   +9  +mine2          20/22 
T111 27/30  23/120  5   +9                   0/24 
T112 21/26 122/120  3  +11  Corn+Sh5+Sh4     2/24 
T113 19/28  48/350  4  +11  +copper          6/24 [COLOR="Red"]chop[/COLOR]
T114 14/30 140/350  5   +5  2Sh+2mines+cop  13/24 [COLOR="red"]chop[/COLOR]
T115 19/30 236/350  5   +5                  20/24 
T116 24/30 266/350  5   +5                  15/26 
T117 29/30 296/350  5   +5                  23/26 
T118 19/32 326/350  6   +5                  18/28 
T119 24/32 356/350  6   +5  +cottage        26/28

I'm pretty sure worker-turns can be managed in the first case. This is all untested, of course--no test save, so don't shoot me if they are mistakes. I might have even made a mistke in my T116 calculations for no forge.

multi-xpost

 

[Mitchum]

OK. I have to digest LC's proposal. But other than that, I don't think there are any open items. I'll steal Toku's worker with an axe/spear pair and I'll finish the grassland cottage in Natures Candhi.

Any thing else?

If not, I'll plan to play in about 1 hour.