SGOTM 21 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

I would land the troops for Louis on the hill W of Paris. Capture Paris and then go W to the other city with the Colossus. Once those 2 cities are gone, he is toast. If we DoW From the north, we can land immediately I believe.

I don't think we want to build any more cities in the short run. I would also not build any cottages at this late date. We are already T148. This game should be over by 250 max imo.
 
More than libraries, we seem to need courthouses. Some christian buildings seem logic too. However, also units. ;)

Peace after capturing Amsterdam, hopefully can OB soon.

Tech, gunpowder, chem, trade for philo and lib steel?

def need 6 courthouses and get the FP up in Louis lands asap.. With mansa having DR I'm hoping he builds versailles for us. That would help with costs if we go for him.

If we try for an AP win would we need to attack anyone after Louis?
 
def need 6 courthouses and get the FP up in Louis lands asap.. With mansa having DR I'm hoping he builds versailles for us. That would help with costs if we go for him.

If we try for an AP win would we need to attack anyone after Louis?
Maybe Liz to diminish her vote share and get MoM in the process?

How would we go about winning AP anyway? Obviously spread christianity to all, but then who are we looking at to be opponent and who do we want to vote for us? As I understand, the easiest way is actually switching to another religion all together. In that case, do we need ownership of the AP to be eligible (giving another reason to attack Liz)?
 
Going to the techs of Industrialism and Physics will take ~120 turns at 60% average techrate.
We can currently barely hold 30%, I know Oxford will boost beaker rate a little.
Also some Libs / courthouses and to a lesser degree Monastaries will also increase beaker count. However 120 (+) turns should be more than enough to have that river city pay off IMHO more so than the West fish city.... The river city also has 6 forests that can go towards getting a Granary, Monastary and Temple up asap, then slowbuild some other stuff like a library

Some plans....

Athens Continue Oxford, 2pop whip a temple once the forrests are gone.
Workers > Cottage (also replace the farm West of the wheat)

Lakeside suggest we invest in Monastary/Temple as well as a Aquaduct
Workers > Farm

Double Gems 2 pop whip a Monastary, finish Treb
Workers > Farm

Beaver Isle gets Crabs to grow, 2 pop whip a Temple and Monastary, use overflow to finish the Galleon

Triple Fish 2 pop a Temple for an extra specialist slot (anything better than a spy)
Finish Galleon

Whorses 2 pop whip a Temple, overflow and finish Galleon

TriClam 2 pop whip a Temple, finish Galleon

Popcorn, doesnt have Christianity yet, slow build a Settler for riverside. Finish courthouse

Ironwool, finish galleon and Courthouse

NorthFish spam Missionaries atleast for Popcorn and Ironwool, 2 pop whip a Temple once we work 2 coastal tiles

Nongoma what a hibrid city. Finish LB, build treb(s)
Workers cottage the grass/farm the plains

ShakaWhales (should have been razed IMHO in favour of settle the island...)
2 pop whip a Temple when we work 2 coastal tiles continue the Forge

Deer Hague Forge > Monastary > temple, 2 or 3 pop whip the Forge asap so the forests get the +25%
Workers Cottage all the grass

Ulundi Forge > Courthouse

Notu Granary > Forge

Kwa Needs a workboat, slow build it and finish with the chop of the gems Workboat > Forge

Nobamba Granary > forge

West fish Granary > Forge

Utrecht Granary

Tech 0% during my set at Gunpowder waiting for Oxford to finish

Capture Amsterdam and make peace with the Dutch, hopefully get OBs with them ASAP

Prep war with France
Is 7 galleons (21 units) full of units enough for the initial invasion?
Or should we land the units first North of France (south of china) in the desert with the stone and use that as a staging area (making reinforcements much easier to get to paris.
 
No offense intended MM, but way too many cottages imho.

We are better off with farms and mines/workshops/watermills and building wealth.

I will have more time later to look closer.
 
I would certainly think and hope this game wiill last less than 120 turns. In that sense I would certainly not build cottages at Nongoma, probably not even at the Hague. Lukewarm about the new city, but not against it. If we go for it, I'd 2-pop whip that settler from popcorn though, into the CH.

What I'm wondering about, are we going corporations? We have to go through industrialism and combustion (oil), so surely through railroad. We have a "spare" GE that could be used for Mining Inc. We can likely get a GM for Sushi (from economics also) and there's quite a lot of seafood around. Medicine nor Bio are really essential though. Still, Sushi might be huge with caste and rep.

Maybe hire an engineer in Athens instead of working coast to speed up Oxford. Wouldn't be against whipping it when it costs 3 pop.
 
Damn the requirement is "also connected to the trade network", which means we also (atleast) need Combustion, possibly plastics...
Just adding combustion adds 30 turns, unless we up our beaker count considerably....

Our current sustainable rate is 30% (not actually, but doable) generating 211 beakers
At 100% we generate 647 beakers Lets assume 647 to be the average beakers for the remainder of the game (which is rather ambitious IMHO) though Oxford will add 100 beakers (and a bit more) while at 100% for which we have a full 5 turns saved up atm.
Getting to plastics at our current 100% I count to be 158 turns, that is at an average of 650 beakers..
offcourse Liberalisme I didnt count, assuming we lib Steel it adds 3 turns, saves 8 turns.
Then this doesnt account for overflow, lets assume this saves about 10% of the time
that leaves 140 turns...

I would be against whipping Oxford, we can just save the gold and pop untill we do finish it without loss or risk. No one is going to finish it before us. Rather use the pop to whip a monastary/temple into place instead.
 
Trades

Liz
Get Corn for Sheep
Sell Cow for 1gpt (or try to renegotiate the Clam <> 4gpt deal

Toku
Sell Cow for his 2gpt

Mao
Sell Copper for Rice + 8gpt (worth the risk of selling Copper???)

Sadly dont have anything to sell Mansa for his 10gpt :(

Could sell i.e. paper around to the AI for a total of 250 gold, not sure if the random 60 gold each is worth it ?

edit:
If we do want to go for diplo via AP victory, currently Louis is our best friend and a sure vote if we keep him alive....
 
Not sure whether there is enough troops in the PPP... :) Lakeside should stick to troops virtually the whole time. Monasteries not so keen on depending on when we plan to get Sci Meth..

As you noted about our tech rate its a bit low (not bad but not great). The best boost we can get to my mind is representation and early rep comes from Louis in the form of the Mids.
 
monastaries or temple (christian offcourse) is for the 2 hammers which will persist beyond sci meth

A monastary, 60 hammers, in Lakeside will repay itself in 15 turns after completion, a temple in 20 turns.

Rep could be a reason to hunt down Louis, but killing our best friend if we aim for AP victory?
I know we have plenty of time to choose our victory offcourse.... We could simply scorch the planet
 
Busy few days, haven't really looked at PPP closely yet sorry.

The Monastery hammers do expire with Sci Meth along with the science boost, only the culture remains effective.

I agree that Lakeside as HE city should build troops non stop. Also Ulundi with the 2 settled GG's once the forge and barracks are up.

@ MM, do you have experience with a hammer economy? Imo, once we get basic infra in our cities, Gran/Forge/CH, if we don't need units then they should build wealth.

Where we can support specialists, we obviously want to do that, and indeed, Representation will help quite a lot also.

We should be able to manipulate the votes if we want to go that way. Still not sure it is feasible time wise, but it may be.
 
I am a builder at heart, and will most likely build a market before bulding wealth... even if it will take 50+ turns before the market gives any form of return on investment.
Well, in that case please take our suggestions at heart. :p Markets are barely ever worth their investment if it weren't for the happy they bring in large cities. The added money might make sense in a bureau cap, a good shrine city and in your corp HQ but that's about it, imo.
 
Once you get to a large number of cities, and we are medium big imo, you have to specialize the cities. Much depends on chosen victory condition, imo, so that is a bit of a challenge here. At this stage of a solo game I would start to add to the city names, army, navy, science, gpp, etc., so when I get to a new build, I have a starting point from which to evaluate.

Basic infra for every city is gran/forge/ch, that's it imo. Coastal cities get LH. The AP adds Temples as options where useful if the 2 hammers helps get to a 25% bonus for an effective 3. Normally I don't even build temples, I would just whip the cities smaller to save on maintenance.

I would approach the cities this way going forward in the short term,

Cities:
Athens: Full infrastructure
Lakeside: units
DoubleGems: units
Beaver Isle: navy
Tripple Fish: GPP + secondary navy
Whorses: units
TriClam: secondary GPP + navy
Popcorn: commerce
IronWoll: Navy
NorthFish: units
Nongoma: LB > basic infra
ShakaWhales: basic infra
The Hague: basic infra
Ulundi: basic infra
NotuMg: basic infra

New cities: basic infra for a while. Get worker support and WB's from closest navy city

Unit cities get barracks.

Navy cities get drydock when available.

If/when we don't need navy/units, those cities build wealth, exception is Lakeside and Ulundi who always build units.

We will eventually want in the neighborhood 20 galleons minimum I would guess. We also want the production capacity to produce 3 units per turn continuously. Lakeside with the HE and Ulundi with the 2 settled GG's make sense for non stop troop production. I would whip the temple at Lakeside if we hit the happy cap there. Probably need 5-6 cities building units to get 3 per turn.

3 Fish needs buildings that provide specialist slots, so Market and Observatory whips at some point here makes sense.

For workers,

As I said before, I would not build any new cottages except at Athens. I would farm/mine/watermill/workshop/chop forests.

I would work the Temple builds only where needed to get 3 hammers or for happy cap reasons.

I would like to get all of the other civs infected with Christianity in case we can go that way, so I would like Missionary builds worked in somewhere.

I would always prefer to whip the unit and overflow into the building instead of vice verse because you get the use of the unit sooner.

No Monasteries except Athens + 1 more somewhere in case we need to missionaries in the future when we are out of OR.
Athens Continue Oxford, 2pop whip a temple once the forrests are gone.
Workers > Cottage (also replace the farm West of the wheat)
You have to be less than 20 hammers invested in the temple to 2 pop whip(100% bonus), I would do it now as you will be at the happy cap in 2 turns. You have to come off the south mine to stay under 20 hammers.
Lakeside suggest we invest in Monastary/Temple as well as a Aquaduct
Workers > Farm
I would build units here, the health problem I caused by trading away our corn for sugar from Mao. My bad, but you can fix it with the trade to Liz. ;)
Double Gems 2 pop whip a Monastary, finish Treb
Workers > Farm
whip the unit > temple
Beaver Isle gets Crabs to grow, 2 pop whip a Temple and Monastary, use overflow to finish the Galleon
whip the unit, we are trying to grow Athens asap, I would leave the Crabs there.
Triple Fish 2 pop a Temple for an extra specialist slot (anything better than a spy)
Finish Galleon
Spy specialists are actually quite good imo, whip unit > Market/Observatory
Whorses 2 pop whip a Temple, overflow and finish Galleon
whip unit 1st
TriClam 2 pop whip a Temple, finish Galleon
whip unit 1st
Popcorn, doesnt have Christianity yet, slow build a Settler for riverside. Finish courthouse
Temple here + Eng gets us to 20 hammers, I would keep it growing and maybe get settler somewhere else. So CH > Temple imo

WB for Kwa could come from Ulundi or even chop a forest on site.
Rest looks good except for the cottages.
Updated PPP and pause at 5 of 10 turns please.
 
so you want to specialize cities but not build any cottages in a commerce town as Popcorn, right?

Also rivertown only makes sence as a commerce city IMHO, with no food it has nothing to feed the hills/workshops

So you want to build workshops everywhere including the two forest tiles in Athens, eventhough the cottages will add more gold/beakers than the hammers even as a cottage due to Oxford being there?

Why would we whip units that at the moment we dont really need?
Also we are in OR, whipping buildings is more efficient.... assuming the city has Christianity offcourse.
 
In Athens Ron clearly mentioned cottages. If you will, a cottage on a riverside plain at Popcorn is ok with me. I think new city comes too late to be cottaged up. With a whole lot of farms, an equal amount of workshops and grass hills can be fed. Basic infra and then on perma-wealth/units is what I'd do.

More interesting to me and still curious to know opinions is whether we want corporations down the road. Will there be enough game left to profit from them if we bee-line medicine/railroad?
 
We need to decide how we want to win the ladies' hearts to know how deep into the tech tree we need to go.

Diplo? Dom?

I honestly have not used corps a lot. A couple botms trying for high scoring domination wins is about it, so I don't really have an opinion. I have always been more of a State Property/Caste/Hammer finisher. Easier to manage in real time hours I believe, and late games tend to get tedious.

That being said, I am more than willing to hear/see how it is done. ;)

So you want to build workshops everywhere including the two forest tiles in Athens, eventhough the cottages will add more gold/beakers than the hammers even as a cottage due to Oxford being there?
No, I am already cottaging the mainland forest at Athens, no complaint about cottaging W of wheat, don't care about the grass on Beaver Island, cottage or give to Beaver as WS for a few hammers.

Why would we whip units that at the moment we dont really need?
We do need units, we want 6-8 galleons and 18-24 units to fill them on the west coast as fast as we can take Amsterdam and get those units healed! The galleons need to travel to get there. We could use more galleons to shuttle troops up the coasts to speed movement west. We are in full go mode right now! The sooner we get Paris and the other wonder city the better.

Also we are in OR, whipping buildings is more efficient.... assuming the city has Christianity offcourse.
You get the the bonus on the overflow also, it is about getting the units moving now.
 
In Athens Ron clearly mentioned cottages. If you will, a cottage on a riverside plain at Popcorn is ok with me. I think new city comes too late to be cottaged up. With a whole lot of farms, an equal amount of workshops and grass hills can be fed. Basic infra and then on perma-wealth/units is what I'd do.

More interesting to me and still curious to know opinions is whether we want corporations down the road. Will there be enough game left to profit from them if we bee-line medicine/railroad?

Personally I would save the GP's for a Golden Age down the road. We won't need medicine for Sids and we will be big enough to take over the world anyway without the corporation boosts.

As ronnie1 mentions we need to decide on how to win the ladies hearts. Liz will be ship or CR.. Perhaps an engineer on that?? Isabella I'd rather see what other options we have before using 3 GPs on her. That is another Golden Age plus we have to try and get a prophet. Cathie we know we will need Industrialism/combustion. Forts on resources give access to them so depending on where the resources are based that might be quicker than the armed forces requirement.
 
so you want to specialize cities but not build any cottages in a commerce town as Popcorn, right?

Also rivertown only makes sence as a commerce city IMHO, with no food it has nothing to feed the hills/workshopsGreen cities make nice production sites with farms/mills/workshops etc. Farms rather than cottages will speed up growth even in a city without a food special.

So you want to build workshops everywhere including the two forest tiles in Athens, eventhough the cottages will add more gold/beakers than the hammers even as a cottage due to Oxford being there?Now for me probably yes. Workshops aren't very good atm but with guilds/chem/caste much better. Then again I hardly ever build cottages as most of the team know from previous games.. :lol:

Why would we whip units that at the moment we dont really need?
Also we are in OR, whipping buildings is more efficient.... assuming the city has Christianity offcourse.

Well I still fancy a domination type victory so the more units the better as long as they are being used that is!! :)
 
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