Space 5 - Old hands can be newbs too, getting back in the game

OK. The weekend was lost in a blur of finalising some annual accounts! :eek:

I've opened the save. Here is a summary of what I can see, and a few discussion points. My questions are in bold:

I think using a Great General for a GA is a no-brainer. We need the extra gpt right now.

1. Happiness.
We are at zero happy faces. With the current food focus we will have new citizens as follows:

Fanatica next turn
Ainwood's Tor in 2 turns
Space Station and Ted's Keep in 6 turns
M-BR in 8 turns

We are building Aqueduct in M-BR and Granary in Ainwood's Tor, and we are researching Fertilizer, all of which will boost future food production.

We have 604 gold, and we are making 38 gpt. This should increase with a GA (How many turns on this map?) Cotton to Darius for Iron and 15 gold gets us 4 happy faces. That will deal with four of the five new citizens. We don't need to cope with the fifth for eight more turns, so we should be able to build a Colosseum or a Theatre in that time during the GA. 500 gold for a Colosseum is a tad pricy given the other things we are trying to do that need gold.

2. Science
We are researching fertiliser, which is not on our path to Scientific Theory, but will boost growth. After that completes in 7 turns, we'll need another 31 turns to get to ST.

We can adopt another Social Policy, and Rationalism looks like the best bet, as it will enhance Research Agreement results by 50%.

Research Agreements will cost 250 gold each. At the end of 20 turns, we get beakers equal to half the average cost of the techs available to us at that point. With Rationalism, this goes to 75%. In effect, we get three quarters of a tech for each agreement, regardless of who it is with. So with a bit of luck, one RA will complete our current research project, and start another.

In 20 turns, we should have two eight turn techs and an 11 turn tech available (eg Economics, Metallurgy, Archeology). Will this improve with a GA? We can currently afford two RAs if we don't buy any happiness buildings. Would it be worth staggering the starts of two RAs so that they don't both mature at the same time? Then the second one gets calculated on the new available tech values after the first one has completed a tech.

3. Units
We are ranked second in soldiers, with Siam first. So all our near neighbours are ranked weaker than us currently. We have 18 military units, including 2 swords that could be upgraded at 100 each. We are building a Musket to complete next turn, and a Crossbow to complete in 10 turns (could be MM'd for 5 turns if we slow growth in Fanatica).

4. Diplo
Siam looks to be the major threat to our plans for world domination. They have several city states allied, they have 60% more soldiers than us, and 30% higher crop yield ( =>growth rate?). I look forward to suggestions on this area, which I know nothing about.

Re. M-B's questions:

Shall we buy Grand Mesa? - 360 gold for a 2 hammer/3 gold tile. Not sure why?
Shall we burn a general for a GA? - I agree yes.
Which policy shall we take? - Rationalism opener.
Shall we allow military builds to complete? - I agree yes, then build happy places.
Should we annexe any of our puppets to accelerate beaker production.- Let's see whether we can afford everything we would need. A GA should certainly help.
 
OK. The weekend was lost in a blur of finalising some annual accounts! :eek:
I can identify with this. :cringe:

We have 604 gold, and we are making 38 gpt. This should increase with a GA (How many turns on this map?) Cotton to Darius for Iron and 15 gold gets us 4 happy faces. That will deal with four of the five new citizens. We don't need to cope with the fifth for eight more turns, so we should be able to build a Colosseum or a Theatre in that time during the GA. 500 gold for a Colosseum is a tad pricy given the other things we are trying to do that need gold.
Agree, would not use gold for buying a Colosseum.

2. Science
We are researching fertiliser, which is not on our path to Scientific Theory, but will boost growth. After that completes in 7 turns, we'll need another 31 turns to get to ST.

We can adopt another Social Policy, and Rationalism looks like the best bet, as it will enhance Research Agreement results by 50%.
We also have the Porcelain Tower, it increase the yield of Research Agreements by 50%, so we should get 100% of a tech with completion of RA if we also have Rationalism opener.

Research Agreements will cost 250 gold each. At the end of 20 turns, we get beakers equal to half the average cost of the techs available to us at that point. With Rationalism, this goes to 75%. In effect, we get three quarters of a tech for each agreement, regardless of who it is with. So with a bit of luck, one RA will complete our current research project, and start another.
See comment above concerning Porcelain Tower.

In 20 turns, we should have two eight turn techs and an 11 turn tech available (eg Economics, Metallurgy, Archeology). Will this improve with a GA? We can currently afford two RAs if we don't buy any happiness buildings. Would it be worth staggering the starts of two RAs so that they don't both mature at the same time? Then the second one gets calculated on the new available tech values after the first one has completed a tech.
Agree, better to stagger them a bit. Would use the gold for RA's.

3. Units
We are ranked second in soldiers, with Siam first. So all our near neighbours are ranked weaker than us currently. We have 18 military units, including 2 swords that could be upgraded at 100 each. We are building a Musket to complete next turn, and a Crossbow to complete in 10 turns (could be MM'd for 5 turns if we slow growth in Fanatica).
Think we should upgrade a unit occasionally if we have enough excess gold. Priority for expending Gold might be RA's, unit upgrades and then building purchases.

4. Diplo
Siam looks to be the major threat to our plans for world domination. They have several city states allied, they have 60% more soldiers than us, and 30% higher crop yield ( =>growth rate?). I look forward to suggestions on this area, which I know nothing about.
Not sure how this works. The AI get to support ridiculous armies...

Yes, higher crop yield means faster growth. :eek:
 
OK, I'll start playing and see how far I get.

Turn 200: 1400 AD
Trigger a GA with a GG. (It's 8 turns this time, btw). GPT up to 91.

Select Rationalism.

Since the beakers from a Research Agreement don't appear to be related to the quality of the Civ you agree with, it's probably best to sign up with the weakest. Only Darius and Siam can sign, however. So I choose Persia. Dial up Darius and settle for Cotton and an RA in exchange for 5 iron and 15 gold. We now have 4 happy faces.

Upgrade one Sword 100 gold.

Leave military units where they are.

Workers near Space Station move towards new sites. One starts road on Marble quarry.

Caravel continues clockwise round the other continent.

IBT
Vienna declares on Oda.
Persia allies with Vienna
Russian and Greek units fight near Leif Springs
Ted's Keep finishes Musket.
Fanatica grows.

Turn 201: 1420 AD
Choose a Theatre in Ted's Keep.

IBT
Persia captures Nagasaki.
Ainwood's Tor completes Granary
M-BR completes Aqueduct

Turn 202: 1420 AD
Ainwood's Tor starts Colosseum
M-BR starts Theatre

IBT
Dublin and Persia are allies.
Dublin declares on Japan.
Dublin and Persia are no longer allies! That was short and sweet!
Greece and Russia continue their fights.

Turn 203: 1430 AD
Sign RA with Siam.

IBT
Fanatica completes Crossbow

Turn 204: 1440 AD
Fanatica starts Library
Having trouble finding things for workers to do.

... To be continued ...
 

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Looking good Alan. :thumbsup:

Couple of very minor things you may ignore if you wish.
we never built the two Fishing Boats for the Fish near M-B. Two Fish tiles are without nets.

Near Orleans, as Nappy gets close to the end of our Peace Agreement, might want to pull back some of the units so they can counterattack instead of take the brunt of a back stab.

See you are building a Road to Orleans. :goodjob:

We are running out of thngs for Workers to do because we are not expanding our cultural boundaries fast enough. Could selectively spend some gold to widen us out, SE of Ted's Keep towards Troyes and east from ainwood's Tor around the Russian border.
However the cost of tile purchase is near 100 gold! :eek:

Keep up the good work. :viking:
 
After I made the save attached above, playing in Civ5 version 1.0.3.80, the Fall Patch came out.

I have the two Mac versions, and the Windows version, so I could choose to continue to play in 1.0.3.80 or in Windows using the new patch, version 1.0.3.142. The only other Mac player on the team is Ted, and he's AWOL. I assume everyone else will get an auto-Steam-update to 1.0.3.142.

If that's the case, then I should probably use the new patch version for the rest of my turn set.

As far as I know, the game play for vanilla has not changed in the Fall Patch, as it was focussed on BNW changes, but after I play in that version, my next save will not open in the pre-patch versions.
 
@leif:

Good points. We can build workboats in 2 turns. I'll start one after the Theatre completes. At our current rate of gold production (golden age, only good for a few more turns), we could buy one every two turns, but I think we need to use our gold for other stuff. Everything's getting expensive!

I'll move the units on the front lines back into defensive positions.

Re. new tiles - tiles around Ted's Keep are 90 gold each, but the ones around Ainwood's Tor are anything from 180 t0 270, with the Grand Mesa at 360. Values don't seem to reflect the current capabilities of the tiles. For example, there are two tiles NE of Ted's Keep - flood plain at 90 and a desert with no visible features at 190. Does that mean there's a future resource under the desert?

Playing on:

Turn 204: 1440 AD
Buy a flood plain tile NE of Ted's Keep for 90 Gold. Worker moves to it.
Buy a forest tile East of Ted's Keep. Worker moves towards it from Ainwood's Tor.
Another worker heads for forest near Orleans.
Units on the French border at Orleans move back to one tile from the border.
I note that we have a Great Scientist in M-BR next turn.
Russia can sign a RA. We only have 255 gold, but I decide I'd better grab it while she has the cash.
Next turn, and tell the road gang near Orleans to get back to work.

IBT
Russians and Greeks still slugging it out.
French muskets move forward to our Orleans border.
Great Scientist born on M-BR.
Dublin wants troops.

Turn 205: 1450 AD
Manage workers. Sleep Great Scientist for now.

IBT
Venice declares on Japan. Allied with Siam (replacing Russia).
More French troop movements.
Ainwood's Tor completes Colosseum.
SS finishes Forge.

Turn 206: 1460 AD
Ainwood's Tor starts University (7 turns).
SS starts aqueduct (5 turns)

IBT
Greece makes peace with Venice.
Various other city states make peace.
Fertilizer discovered.
Trade route complete to Orleans.
M-BR completes Theatre.

Turn 207: 1470 AD
M-BR starts work boat (1 turn)
Start research on Acoustics (4 turns)
We have 6 happy faces.
One turn left on our Golden Age
Upgrade a Sword (100 gold)

IBT
Peace with France expires.
M-BR completes work boat
Golden Age ends

Turn 208: 1480 AD
Workboat lays nets in the harbour.
M-BR starts workboat (2 turns)
Start building a road to Leif Springs
Continue fog busting round the Japanese coast, find the Persian city of Tokyo!

IBT
Several French units still looking menacing on our border, but no action.

Turn 209: 1490 AD
Caravel meets Quebec City. Allied with Siam, Hostile, Maritime. Has Incense.

IBT
Napoleon drops by to ask for Open Borders. I'm not sure I want to do that. I'll let the next player decide whether to pursue this option.
Alex and Cathy make peace, along with Genoa.
M-BR completes workboat.
Fanatica completes Library

Turn 210: 1500AD
Workboat fishes offshore at M-BR.
Fanatica starts workboat (5 turns)
M-BR starts Taj Mahal (10 turns in production focus mode). This would give 4 happy faces and a golden age - feel free to change.

======================================

Handover:

Some workers are up north building a road towards Leif Springs. Seemed like a good idea. We currently get 70 gpt from trade routes to our cities, and this would be a new trade route since Leif Springs doesn't have a harbour, though obviously the road will add to our maintenance costs.

M-BR hasn't put any hammers into Taj Mahal yet, so please change it if it isn't appropriate. I thought the extra happy faces would help to annex a puppet. We have 5 happy faces now, but they won't last long (3 more citizens will be born in the next turn set.)

Napoleon wants Open Borders. I don't know if it's a good idea. He hasn't looked too menacing, but he may just be hiding his resources.

We have RAs with:
Japan (7 turns to go)
Persia (20 turns to go)
Siam (23 turns to go)
Russia (24 turns to go)

I figured we could use the two Great Scientists for the next tranche of techs, when the cost rises again.

Here's the save. I'm not sure what sort of screenshot would be helpful. Maybe the demographics ....

 

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Really good job Alan. Like Leif I can't open the save right now as Steam is demanding to download the patch but won't because the server is busy. :smoke:

However, 4 RA's is a really good thing. Keeping the scientists up our sleeve is a really good thing.
I think we should research the top of the tech tree and leave the bottom alone. That way we have more chance of stealing techs from Siam.

Are we able to sell a lux at the expense of 4 happy faces (once we get TM)? We need to save gold to buy science buildings.

Taj Mahal is a really good wonder to get. Correct build IMO.

Tomorrow I'll have a good look.
 
Looking good! :thumbsup:

Think we should use a Great Scientist to research Economics for us, bumps up beakers for Japan RA due in 7-turns. Finish Acoustics, self-research Navigation and then use the second Great Scientist to research Scientific Theory and get Public Schools built asap.

In the meantime, M-B could use a Bank after Taj.
Space could build a Theater after Aqueduct.
Ted's Keep could probably build a Cannon or two. Should reconsider food focus there as it has a Barracks for military production.
Ainwood's Tor, after University could probably use a Bank, although military production should not be discounted.
Fanatica should probably focus on University, although we need to get all those Fish tiles into cultural boundary and get them working, but the tiles are too expensive. Culture buildings?

I am see a Cannon in Russia, surely Nappy cannot be far behind. Think we some too.

Thinking we should send a Scout to the other continent so we can see the lay of the land and the number of cities and their quality. I'm not sure whether our bigger challenge ios Siam or Persia?
 
I've had a bit of a look at the save, and here are some random thoughts.

Fanatica.
Can buy pearls tile for 200g. Is building a workboat. Let's use the workboat for pearls and not fish.
Needs colloseum. We should buy this in 14 turns latest. (Explain later)
Needs university. We should buy this in 3 turns. (Explain later)
So Uni + Colli + Pearls = 1360g
We are at 441g +46g

We should buy uni in 3 turns (as soon as we can afford it), then pearls tile to coincide with workboat completion. Colloseum will be affordable in roughly 8 turns (because we will have Machu Pichu by then).
Needs granary really badly. This should be the next hard build.

MB-R
Should not build Taj Mahal. Here is why I've changed my mind.
We should get Machu Pichu (6 turns) and then Oxford Uni

Space Station
Completes aqueduct next turn. Can then be switched to production focus and build Taj Mahal in 10 turns and circus maximus after that.

Teds keep
needs floating gardens (4.7f + 1h) and then granary (+4f) - really badly.

Ainwoods Tor
Needs aqueduct and then floating gardens.

Markets should be bought first, and then banks and then education. These should not be hard built. Cash is king as we approach the next educational tech - scientific theory in less than 24 turns. We need to buy as many educational establishments as we can. Therefore I would burn the second general now for a GA, then we get another GA with the Taj Mahal straight afterwards.

Once scientific theory is in we need to complete the two universities immediately in order to build Oxford. AT will hardbuild in 4 turns. Once Oxford is built, we should annexe our two puppets who are not playing ball as regards science. I honestly don't know what the governor of Leif Springs is thinking - he's a moron. :rolleyes:

Research.
Oxford university will be in in 14 turns. I tried to figure a way of getting an industrial era tech with this building but couldn't find a way. :sad:

So, I think we should research economics and navigation then archaeology, and take scientific theory as our free tech. It's the quickest way to get ST without burning beakers.

Once economics is in we should have a long hard look at the individual hex tiles for each city and decide which tiles to tear up and replace with trading posts.

On the subject of economics. I think we should burn our remaining general for a GA and then we will get a GA from Taj Mahal. This will grow our treasury to enable the purchase of more buildings once we hit scientific theory.

Additionally we need to build our unique building. It is a very efficient way of improving growth and production.

Further down the road we should begin to prepare our space ship cities, but that can wait.

What happens if we don't have our science queue fixed up when the RA completes. Where do the beakers go?
 
Looked at your suggestion M-B and have a few questions.

You do not seem to include the price of RA's. They should be first priority now that we have Porcelain Tower and Rationalism opener. Seem to be spending a lot more Gold than we can count on having. Would love to know where those numbers are coming from?

On tech tree, why don't we burn the Great Scientists? Use one for Economics and the second for Scientific Theory. Then we can save Oxford for a Modern Era tech?

Can build Taj in Space. Gaining Acoustics also allows for construction of Sistine Chapel and +25% culture in every city. Machu Pichu would yield about 17 gpt, worth it?
 
Yes, Agree RA's are important. Yes agree that we are short of gold. Need to maximise gpt. This is the challenge. Proly can't buy uni in 3 turns, it might take 5. Gold will increase as we go, but like you, I'm not sure how much we will make since this is vanilla and quite different from BNW.

Oxford gives a free tech so it should be a biggie without waiting too long. How far away is radio?
Sistine is a good choice and would allow us to get through the rationalism tree quicker. Maybe we can afford to go Machu Pichu, Sistine and then oxford and use oxford for a bigger tech.

Can use the scientists to buy ahead on the tech tree to maximise gain from Oxford.

Sorry for the quick and unintelligent response but I'm on my way out and won't be able to post again today.
 
OK, 10-turns done.
We are over 200 beakers per turn, are building some Public Schools and have maintained peace, although France seems to be posturing.

The turn log:
Spoiler :
Turn 210 – 1500 AD
Decide to use a modified version of MB’s idea.
Change build in M-B to National Epic.
Realign some unit locations.

IBT
We learn Acoustics => start Navigation.
Space Station Aqueduct => Taj Mahal.

Turn 211 – 1505AD
Change build in M-B to Sistine Chapel.
As we are running out of things for Workers to do, decide to send a couple of them on a scouting mission overseas.

IBT

Turn 212 – 1510AD
:sleep:

IBT

Turn 213 - 1515AD
Move some Workers.

IBT

Turn 214 – 1520AD
Ainwood’s Tor completes University => Floating Garden.
Use a Great Scientist to research Economics, shold have done that sooner, gpt increases by +8.

IBT
Japan and Russia sign a declaration of friendship.
Deal with Siam for Silk for our marble expires.
Fanatica completes Work Boat => University.

Turn 215 – 1525AD
Dial up Siam and he wants 90 Gold + 2 Horses + Open Borders to renew deal, we have to agree because we are unhappy without the deal, damned crook!
Purchase Pearls tile in Fanatica for 200 Gold and use Work Boat on it.
Sell Pearls to Darius for 127 Gold + Open Borders.

IBT
We learn Navigation => Scientific Theory.
Siam is now an Ally of Tyre.
Tyre declare on Japan.

Turn 216 – 1530AD
Burn a Great Scientist to research Scientific Theory.
Set research to Military Science for Cavalry.
Change build in M-B to Public School.
We have two sources of Coal, each worth 7 units. Readjust Workers.
Our Military Adviser is telling us that France now has a stronger military than we do. :eek:
Change Ted’s Keep to default focus and micromanage it so we get growth next turn and theater next turn. Need to build some units to counteract France, imho.

IBT
Ainwood’s Tor completes University => Public School.
Ted’s Keep Theater => Cannon.

Turn 217 – 1535AD
Decide to burn the Great General and start a Golden Age to get some of these Public Schools built sooner.
Change Space Station to Public School.

IBT
Research Agreement with Japan completes, we get Military Science and start Metallurgy.
France is becoming a concern as they are lining up on our borders.

Turn 218 – 1540AD
Visit with Oda who doesn’t have the Gold for another RA. He needs 222 Gold to make an RA.
I purchase 2 Horse from him for 90 Gold. Now he needs 132 Gold, so I give him 220 Gold for 5 gpt and we sign a research agreement.

IBT

Turn 219 – 1545AD
We pop an Ancient Ruin for 20 culture points. :sad:

IBT
Russia denounces France.

Turn 220 – 1550AD
Only moved one Worker to build a road to Leif Springs. Everything else is unmoved.
Need to build a mine on the Coal near Ted’s Keep.
We have a Knight near Orleans that can be upgraded to Cavalry for 220 Gold, think we should do this.
We are in a crush for building things.
M-B has Sistine’s Chapel partially built, interrupted for Public School.
Space has Taj partially built, interrupted for Public School.
Think we need more military units, or upgrade some that we have.
We have Open Borders with Persia, Japan and Siam, 2-Workers are on their way to recon the land.
Keep an eye on France, think he is plotting…

Demographics

Military Adviser:
 

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As always. No rush.

I have just replaced my motherboard and CPU after frying them last week, and I'm having a long weekend away. (Gotta love Melbourne, you get a day of for a horse race).

Any road up... I haven't had a chance to look at the save yet anyway.
 
Pre-Flight:
Overall aim will be to progress technologically, with secondary aim of not getting killed.
Decide on a bit of a structured review of cities:
MBR: Great merchant in 4 turns. Public School in 2. MM to get Public School in 1, then a seaport looks like a great option.
Space Station: Public School in 6. There are some high-yeild tiles that we don't have population to work, so I move towards a food focus (next citizen in 3), at the cost of a couple of turns delay in school (and sacking scientists).
Ted's Keep: Great Scientist in 2 (i.e. ahead of MBR merchant - good!) I decide to sack the merchant in MBR. Canon in 8, which I'll accelerate once the Great Scientist is born.
Ainwood's TOR - Public School in 8 - no change.
Fanatica - University in 8 (no change)
I start a worker mining some coal, and I see some opportunities for road rationalisation.
IBT: Hanoi declares war on Japan.
Great Scientist born in ted's Keep, Public school completed in Mad bax's Return.

Turn 221, 1555AD
MBR Public School => Seaport
Ted's Keep MM to produce Cannon in 4.
I am nervous about Nappy, although he is friendly. I upgrade two trebuchets to cannons.

IBT: A whole lot of deals expire, and we drop to -1 happy (i.e. 1 unhappy)

Turn 222, 1560AD
Siam doesnt' trust us, and wants a fortune for ivory.
I manage to get both Gems & Ivory from Japan for Pearls, 5 Iron, 20 GPT and change. We go back to +7 happy. Best I can get for our other pearls is 5 GPT.

IBT: Kremlin built IAFAL. Ivory kicks-off 3 WLTKDs. Trade route with Leif Springs established.

Turn 223, 1565AD
Nothing significant

IBT: Golden Age ends, discover metallurgy. Hook-up coal (we now have seven).

Turn 224, 1570AD
Essentially, we need to get to plastics. However, I see it that we're in a cold-war with Napolean, and we can't afford to neglect our military. I don't really want to waste lots of beakers on Rifling (although it may be an effective deterent and help us militarily). Also, we've got a couple fo wonders part-built that we detoured from for schools (a move I agreed with). I decide, perhaps controversially, to use our Great Scientist to discover Steam power, which gets us factories if we want them (we now have coal), and puts us close to replacable parts (infantry). Space Station is a couple of turns away from a public School, and I will then try to balance builds there vs specialists to get us another great scientist. I choose archeology.

IBT: Get list of people with pointiest sticks - we score 2430 vs Nappy's 4342 (Siam is highest!)
Turn 225, 1575AD
MBR Seaport => Sistene Chapel (4 turns)
Ted's Keep Cannon -> Cavalry
Meet Kuala Lumpur (A worker is wandering the far continent).
Continue road optimisation.

IBT: Space Station completes public school. We now make 214 BPT.
Turn 226, 1580 AD
Space Station Public School=>Taj Mahal (6 turns)

Turn 227, 1585 AD
Very Little.

IBT: Nappy declares war on us! Alex also threatens us - I sense a dog-pile.
Turn 228, 1590 AD
I destroy one musketeer, and elect not to expose our longsword to try to destroy another. A third musket is marauding neat Ted's Keep, and I flank it. I move units closer to Alan's Apple, but retreat from Leif Springs - I fear we may lose it if Alex attacks.

IBT: We lose a knight and a longsword. :( We complete Sistene Chapel in MBR.
Turn 229, 1595 AD
Destroy two more musketeers, wound another 3. However, am exposed on at least a crossbowman and probably a longsword as well. Mobilise another couple of cities to military units.

IBT: Lose another longsword. Crossbow holds-on with 1 health left... Nappy reinforces teh front line (this is getting a bit scary! :eek: )
Turn 230, 1600 AD
Destroy a musketeer that was near ted's keep. ANother stray one is heading towards space station.

State of the Nation:
We are two turns from Archeology, and (hopefully) two turns from the Taj Mahal and the golden age (and happiness) it brings. I think we at reasonably serious risk from Nappy. I am fighting a defensive war with Cannons, but with his 3-move musketeers, it is not as effective as it might otherwise be. I have partially wounded 3, but he has a decent amount to the south-east of Orleans. We ahve other units on their way, but I guess we shoudl ask whether a tactical withdrawal is a good option.
I have started building more units - we get a musket next turn, a cavalry in two, and a longsword in 4. MBR can actually spit units out every 2 turns.
 

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