[Speculation]Portugal

[Mr.Q]

Thats why I say they should have an exploration bonus like + 1 sight for example.

Well... this is just pure speculation (and speculation over speculation) we do not know how the exploration tree will gonna work after all. And, most important, if the UA of Portugal in some way relates to that.

 

[Mr.Q]

Feitoria works better as a seaport replacement, rather than harbor.

But I ask you wouldn't that be too late in the game?

 

[ferretbacon]

Feitoria works better as a seaport replacement, rather than harbor.

I suppose the Seaport might have a better claim, but the idea is to make Compass an important milestone for a Portuguese player.

Hit that tech and you get the Caravel early and build your UB.

 

[pedrosfm]

A rose by any other name would sail just as sweet.

You're making my pun-loving heart aflutter!

On topic: I'm liking your unique traits. Hopefully Firaxis will go with something similar.

 

[pedrosfm]

But I ask you wouldn't that be too late in the game?

I get that feeling as well. Maybe an earlier seaport replacement?

 

[Scaramanga]

For the love of all that is holy to you, stop calling the ship Carrack. When I first played BtS I went "What the hell is a carrack?! I've never heard of such a thing!" That's a spanish word and this is the Portuguese civilization, so both Firaxis and the players need to call it Nau. Now! (delicious pun intended)

And Persepolis is a Greek word.

 

[Colmar]

First, there's a minor semantics issue out. I know Civ IV used the word "carrack", but that's actually a Spanish word. The Portuguese use the word "nau" to refer to this type of ship. This was already mentioned earlier in the thread. Didn't stick, I guess.

While it's based off the spanish term carraca, it's simply the English term for the ship. France uses Musketeers, not Mousquetaires, so it seems Civ just uses the English term sometimes. Using the native term seems to be for very specific units that don't have a (well known) English alternative, like Landsknecht or Conquistador. I see no problem, and I don't really expect them to change it.

 

[Scaramanga]

So you propose that both caravels and naus/carracks should be in the game? And if so, when should naus/carracks appear in the game?

As for the portuguese operating very much like pirates in the Indian Ocean I must say: sorry but I don't agree. There may have some privateering but that was not the basis on which portuguese operate on the Indian ocean. They imposed themselves over the Mughal empire trade routes for example, but they also established very profitable trade routes through trade agreements with other nations, e.g. Siam. So having the carrack replacing the privateer simply doesn't go accurate. Privateering goes much more along with the way the english, french and dutch empires worked to disrupt spanish and portuguese trade routes.

Caravels and carracks would appear at about the same time as each other, late Medieval/Early Renaissance. Caravels would be advance scouts and more maneuverable in combat (withdraw before melee) and high seas (extra sight), as they were in real life. Carracks would be the work horses, able to go long voyages and armed sufficiently to take major trading ports.

Outside of a eurocentric point of view, the Portuguese arrived in the Indian Ocean as bullies. They made enemies quickly. Full of crusading zeal and coming from a land that was very resource-poor and had nothing of significance to trade compared to a nation like China, the only way they gained their foot-hold was by force using their superior military technology. They frequently raided merchant vessels that did not have their approval to trade and controlled the strategic points of trade in East Africa, Arabia, India, and, of course, the Malacca Strait. After the Asians got over the shock of Portuguese military superiority they were able to launch concerted efforts to evict them. What did Portugal trade with Siam that the Siamese were interested in?

 

[Arbustro]

What did Portugal trade with Siam that the Siamese were interested in?

Firearms and ammunition. Treaty of 1516.

 

[steveg700]

But I ask you wouldn't that be too late in the game?

I suppose the Seaport might have a better claim, but the idea is to make Compass an important milestone for a Portuguese player.

Hit that tech and you get the Caravel early and build your UB.

If the primary function of a feitoria is to provide defense, then Navigation isn't too late. Indeed, it's just in time. And that particular tech is a worthy milestone for Portugal as well.

While it's based off the spanish term carraca, it's simply the English term for the ship. France uses Musketeers, not Mousquetaires, so it seems Civ just uses the English term sometimes. Using the native term seems to be for very specific units that don't have a (well known) English alternative, like Landsknecht or Conquistador. I see no problem, and I don't really expect them to change it.

There's nothing to change at the moment. That they used the term carrack back in Civ IV isn't exactly a compelling reason to use it here.

But like I said, it's a minor issue of semantics, and as you say, it's no real problem.

 

[Mr.Q]

Caravels and carracks would appear at about the same time as each other, late Medieval/Early Renaissance. Caravels would be advance scouts and more maneuverable in combat (withdraw before melee) and high seas (extra sight), as they were in real life. Carracks would be the work horses, able to go long voyages and armed sufficiently to take major trading ports.

Outside of a eurocentric point of view, the Portuguese arrived in the Indian Ocean as bullies. They made enemies quickly. Full of crusading zeal and coming from a land that was very resource-poor and had nothing of significance to trade compared to a nation like China, the only way they gained their foot-hold was by force using their superior military technology. They frequently raided merchant vessels that did not have their approval to trade and controlled the strategic points of trade in East Africa, Arabia, India, and, of course, the Malacca Strait. After the Asians got over the shock of Portuguese military superiority they were able to launch concerted efforts to evict them. What did Portugal trade with Siam that the Siamese were interested in?

Everybody, no matter the continent where he/she is or where he/she has come from, has a biased point of view over any issue given by life learning, education etc. Thats ok for me. Eurocentric or not, declaring an open war for profitable trade routes is historically correct but that is different from privateering. And that is exacting what I have been saying. Never said the portuguese weren't 'bullies' on the conquest for the Indian ocean. They were. Pretty much against muslim states and their trade routes. From Malacca to the strait of Hormuz. Portugal never attacked Siam for example, and, until today, still has a very peculiar and close relationship with Thailand. Portuguese disrupted muslim trade routes by direct war not by privateering. Thats why I advocate the nau/carrack can't replace the privateer.

 

[Scaramanga]

Feitoria UB doesn't make sense to me. It was by definition a building in a foreign city that served as a warehouse for spice purchasing and shipment. It's like having a embassy representing your government in your own city.

 

[steveg700]

Feitoria UB doesn't make sense to me. It was by definition a building in a foreign city that served as a warehouse for spice purchasing and shipment. It's like having a embassy representing your government in your own city.

What do you think harbors and seaports represent?

As Wikipedia puts it aptly, feitorias (i.e. factories) "served simultaneously as market, warehouse, customs, defense and support to the navigation or exploration, headquarters or de facto government of local communities".

True, they weren't built in cities proper, rather settlements would crop up around them, but that's more to do with the irregular nature of cities in Civ. You don't tend to put lighthouses in the heart of a city either, for instance.

 

[Veras]

Maria II would be a nice female leader for Portugal except for the fact that she's brazilian (as far as I know, the only american born person who became an european monarch).

 

[nunor]

Maria II would be a nice female leader for Portugal except for the fact that she's brazilian (as far as I know, the only american born person who became an european monarch).

Except that Brazil was under Portuguese rule when she was born, so she's Portuguese

 

[Genghis.Khan]

I put my feet back when talking about João II, Henrique, Feitorias and carracks. They were in civ III and IV, they are too used!
Change the names firaxis!
Perhaps "Nau" instead of "Carrack" (never replace a cargo ship for it). and the Nau should not replace a caravel as the expansion was made with Naus and Caravels. It can replace a late renaissance naval unit (privateer?) and be earned earlier.
From Afonso Henriques, D.Dinis, João I, Manuel I, Maria II ... There are many kings to use (João II was the best in my oppinion, but there are others). Maria II is a good idea indeed (I would prefer other king that has done more but as firaxis uses many female leaders and we have 0 in BNW, until now, ...).
Feitorias is something almost necessary, but there are other ideas "Padrão" (well, they were used Before the construction of a city. Maby"Plourinho"? I don't think so...) "Casa de Fados" (the tipical portuguese cafe with wine, music and popular discussion)...
Bandeirantes is a good, very good idea for a civ with 2 UU.
The ability should be focused on expansion (if feitoria or simmilar is used) OR on expansion and trade rotes (if we have 2 UU)

My Opinion as a Portuguese:

Leader: Afonso Henriques, João II, Henrique, Manuel I, João V

Analysis: Afonso Henriques, The Conquerer - First Portuguese King, Conquered Most of Portuguese Territory to the Moors. Unlikely Because Not-Related to Portuguese Discoveries.
João II, The Perfect Prince - Important Role in the Discoveries and Signing of the Treaty of Tordesilhas (which divided the World's Exploration in two parts, in a line specificaly some hundred miles south of Cape Verde, as the demands made by the Kingdom of Portugal, due to Excellent Knowdlege of Geography due to Portuguese Cartographers and Sailors, leading to the mystical Cartography School of Sagres, a legendary school supposed to be run by Henrique the Navigator himself. The division was made between the Kindgom of Portugal and the Kingdom of Castilla). Already included in Sid Meier's Civilization IV [civ4bts]
Henrique (or Henry), the Navigator - Major Role in the Portuguese Discoveries, leading to the atributtion of the Cartography School of Sagres's leadership to himself . The existence of the Cartography School remains undisclosed but it is certain that Henry had a major influence in Portuguese Cartography and Discoveries. Anyway, Henrique was merely a Portuguese Prince out of the Kings direct Descendency and never ascended to the throne.
Manuel I, The Fortunate - In his Reign happened the Major Portuguese Discoveries, as in 1498 Portuguese Navigator Vasco da Gama dicovered the Maritime Route to India which was the most Important Portuguese Discovery and had a huge Economic Impact in Portugal and the Rest of the World, and the Discovery of Brazil, two years later, in 1500. However the atribuitton of the name the Fortunate has two main reasons: he was a King's Cousin, unlikely to ascend to the throne, but several events have lead him to the throne and his accomplishments in the Discoveries were more João II's sucess than his own.
João V, The Magnificent - Even if Unlikely, João V was a important Portuguese King whose Reign was Important due to the Gold provided by Brazil. After the Spanish Dinasty in Portugal (1580-1640), Portugal had to face the Dutch, French and English to retrieve the Colonies lost during the Spanish Rule, and there was a good sucess, more due to João IV's effort than his own. João V was himself a poor but lucky King wasting a large portion of Portuguese Currency, leading to Portuguese Bankrupt in José I's Reign.

Capital: Lisbon

Unique Ability: Treaty of Tordesilhas, By Seas Never Sailed Before, Beyond the Cape Bojador;
Trait: +2 Gold from Sea Routes. Naval Units have +1 Sight. Caravels are Unlocked at Compass.
Double Gold Upon Discovering a City-State. Coastal Cities provide 33% less Unhappiness. Caravels are Unlocked at Compass
Great Merchants Generation is 33% Faster. Sea Routes ignore Enemy Territory.


Analysis: Treaty of Tordesilhas was a Treaty between the Kingdom of Portugal and the Kingdom of Castilla which divided the World's Exploration in two parts, in a line specificaly some hundred miles south of Cape Verde, as the demands made by the Kingdom of Portugal, due to Excellent Knowdlege of Geography due to Portuguese Cartographers and Sailors, leading to the mystical Cartography School of Sagres, a legendary school supposed to be run by Henrique the Navigator himself.
By Seas Never Sailed Before is the third verse of the first chant of 'Os Lusíadas' by Luís Vaz de Camões the most recognized Portuguese poetry, exalting the Portuguese Discoveries and similiar to Homer's Poems as 'The Odissey'
Beyond the Cape Bojador is another reference to Portuguese Poetry, the eight verse of 'Mar Português' in 'Mensagem' by Fernando Pessoa, a well-known XIX Century Portuguese Poet.

Unique Unit: Nau, Carrack (Ranged Naval Unit, Avaible at Compass) +2 , can Disembark and found Coastal Cities/ Colony Improvement

Unique Unit: Bandeirante (Replaces Musketman). -1 and + 15 , May Build Plantations, Mines, Forts and Trading Posts. Ignores Terrain Cost on Hills. (May Build Colonies / Found Coastal Cities.)

Unique Building: Feitoria (Replaces Market) May only be built in Coastal Cities. +1 per Luxury Resource, +3 if the City is connected to the Capital. Grants a small defense bonus (2 ).

 

[nunor]

Joao V and Manuel I would be terrible choices.

 

[Genghis.Khan]

Joao V and Manuel I would be terrible choices.

feels like they don't deserve it . Even if João V would be a great leaderhead

 

[mposyncckh]

Could the Feitoria be a UI as opposed to a UB? Be built on resources and give extra production and defense for Fortified units? Can only be built on coastal tiles.
UA: Triple gold for discovering city states. Sea trade routes to cities in your own empire give extra gold. From the videos I have seen internal trade only lets you send food or production but this ability could give your empire gold. +2 sight for all naval units(including cargo ships and embarked units.)

 

[Scaramanga]

What do you think harbors and seaports represent?

As Wikipedia puts it aptly, feitorias (i.e. factories) "served simultaneously as market, warehouse, customs, defense and support to the navigation or exploration, headquarters or de facto government of local communities".

True, they weren't built in cities proper, rather settlements would crop up around them, but that's more to do with the irregular nature of cities in Civ. You don't tend to put lighthouses in the heart of a city either, for instance.

I honestly think that if a city doesn't have a harbour in that game that translates to a harbourless city in real life. They can take a lot of work to build involving dredging. The impression of feitorias that I get from my reading is that they were a way to contain foreign merchants. So it does make sense for Portugal to build a feitoria in one of their cities to accommodate say Arab or Italian merchants but not their own now that I think about it. But then they're not really Portuguese feitorias. Feitorias and the feitors that ran them might make a better UA - one that increases income from international sea trade routes.