Strategy objectives- Long term

[Garand]

I agree. I have been a proponent for bringing Saturn into the fold and possibly fostering an alliance with them against Cav later in the game once Sancta is taken care of.

Simply put, Cav is the biggest threat in the game right now in my opinion, perhaps moreso than Sancta. We have very little intelligence on Sancta and their affairs. However, we already know that Cav is a strong team, off to a strong start, and their technology dealings with us have been less than advantageous to us. My own hunch is that Cav is using us for tech and will turn on us at the first opportunity.

Saturn is behind and without help will become a target for a larger civ, or will fall into line with Sancta or in a secret agreement with one of our own tech alliance. In that regard, we have a short window of opportunity to secure our own alliance with them.

If Sancta is knocked out, the two big powers remaining will be us and Cav. The alliance we are currently in WILL dissolve once the common threat of Sancta is eliminated. I don't know how likely it is we can obtain Mad Scientists' support against Cav in the future, but if we enter a beneficial relationship with Saturn NOW, we can hopefully count on them and be able to work toward getting MS in our camp as well.

 

[Kaleb]

If it is 4-1 on Santca we will likely gain the most territory and will therefore be the biggest target afterwards.

In 3-2 Cav and MS will also gain land from Saturn and therefor Cav will be a more clear threat to MS.

I agree!

 

[Sommerswerd]

I don't think that who "gains land" should even be a consideration here. We are barely capable of colonizing the patch of land we have control of. We would be ganging up on SANCTA to elimminate them, and burn their cities, not to capture them. No ONE is capable of maintaining a city that far away this soon because the upkeep would be too high.

So really, no one gains any land. We havent even settled up to the mouth of the mountain pass yet. I'm hoping by the time we get there, SANCTA will be gone.

 

[damnrunner]

I don't think that who "gains land" should even be a consideration here. We are barely capable of colonizing the patch of land we have control of. We would be ganging up on SANCTA to elimminate them, and burn their cities, not to capture them. No ONE is capable of maintaining a city that far away this soon because the upkeep would be too high.

So really, no one gains any land. We havent even settled up to the mouth of the mountain pass yet. I'm hoping by the time we get there, SANCTA will be gone.

It will be a long while until we are at war at which point most empty land should be taken up. While we should burn some sancta cities i think we should keep their core cities which will have a good commercial base. Of course a discussion of this is very premature.

 

[donsig]

If war is a long way off then that's even more incentive for us to try to keep Saturn away from SANCTA. We should take advantage of Saturn's isolation and build a good relationshiop with them to counter the good relationship that may be forming between Team Cav and the Mad Ones.

 

[mikotian]

I completely agree with Donsig. But we should not bring Saturn formally into our alliance. In fact, it would be wonderful if we could keep Saturn away from not just Sanc, but from EVERYONE.

Someone posted somewhere that "Saturn is sort of on autopilot unless something important comes up".
This is bad as we will have a weak and not-careful ally if we do end up with them.
But this is good in that it will make dealing with, and isolating them, easier. Because they might not be thinking of diplo that much.

 

[Kaleb]

Yes, I think this is the way forward. We can be friendly with them, and not give them reason for seeking out SANCTA, but we should trust they will be able to help us much as a counter-balance to Cav in the long term.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Yes, I think this is the way forward. We can be friendly with them, and not give them reason for seeking out SANCTA, but we should trust they will be able to help us much as a counter-balance to Cav in the long term.

We should trust them to be a counterbalance against Cav? That seems to support the idea of allying with them... If this is what you mean, then I agree but I think maybe you meant should NOT... in which case I disagree.

To any who say that we should not bring Saturn into the alliance as a counterbalance against Cavalieros, I would ask why not? Because we met them last?... So we can't trust them?

 

[Indiansmoke]

What we also need to start thinking about is taking Cav off the alliance at some point..they are between us and MS so it is natural that if we would like in the future to attack them MS wil be our best friend.

 

[mikotian]

The reason for NOT bringing Saturn into the alliance is because it's to our interest to prevent them from getting closer to MS and CAV. Bringing them into the alliance actually complicates our diplomacy tremendously and makes the situation more difficult to control.

However, if we try to isolate them diplomatically from everyone, and build an EXCLUSIVE relationship (as far as such a thing is possible), we 1) stand a much better chance of gaining their support later 2) make the situation easier to control.

Essentially, it carves up our diplomatic problem into fewer, more easily digestible chunks... there are fewer relationships to worry about.

 

[cav scout]

I think Mikotian makes some very good points here.

 

[mikotian]

I want to make myself clear.
Yes they can open discussion with MS and CAV themselves. We cannot control that directly. All sorts of info and deals could theoretically be passing behind our back. But the fact is that they have not shown any signs of actively seeking out relationships and alliances. In fact, last I heard, they haven't even found CAV. And do they have OB with MS?

So why bring them into the fold, and HELP them open wider channels of communication to CAV and MS, and therefore room for them to woo and plot with Saturn? It just seems self-defeating and complicating.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Everyone remember that our tech alliance requires us to give tech to the alliance so if we try to make a seperate alliance with Saturn we will still have to share anything we get from them with the whole alliance. That might make a seperate alliance a little complicated if Saturn does not want its tech given away.

 

[mikotian]

So we will just have to manage our relationship carefully. That's a mechanical problem.

But strategically, am I not right?

And Saturn will benefit from our trading. We should though formulate a plan to sell NOT including Saturn formally in our alliance to MS and CAV, if necessary. For example, we can say that Saturn is so technologically behind that it would be counterproductive to include them, as they would simply be mooching off us.

And if Saturn has problems? We just give them a little subsidy, and I don't see why they wouldn't be on board. In fact, since we are the tech leaders, we have greater freedom to do this, even within the framework of our existing alliance.

And we should not give Saturn full details about our relationship with MS and CAV. Don't lie, but let them figure it out themselves...

 

[Sommerswerd]

I am willing to participate in polls regarding our alliance structure. I do think we need some discussion before any polls. I think the first thing we need to address is whether we even want to stay allied with Team Cav until the other three teams are gone. Maybe even before that we need to settle on a victory strategy. It seems to me this game will be won by domination.

I agree. Sooooooo, to begin productive progress towards resolving the CavKaz treaty issue (which is smoke-and-mirrors IMO, TBH) can we all at least quickly agree that we are going for a domination win?

 

[donsig]

Please, if you disagree with a domination victory goal please post here. Also, if you agree that we should pursue a domination win please give us a basic strategy suggestion or two.

The overall strategy I've favored is isolating and targeting the most dangerous team (SANCTA) while forming a long term alliance with a good team (Team Cav). In the end we square off against our long tern ally in a race for domination.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Domination will be very hard to achieve in this game, most propable win type is space.

In tech trading on games it is very hard to get such a big tech advantage for domination. I think space win in early 1800's or even 1700's is what will happen.

 

[donsig]

That's very interesting. I thought it was your opinion that if we made a long term alliance with Team Cav they would win a domination victory.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I did not say that...all I said is that there should be a clause that says no team reaches domination level...just in case...in reality I don't think it will happen.

 

[Kaleb]

The last Civ 4 MTG was a diplomatic victory I believe...