Suggestions

[N0Face]

I have few suggestions for Wildmana.
First one I already posted here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9350544&postcount=22.
Second one is about relations of religions and magic. I think that OO and Order can't stand another power in their land, so efficiency of Faith gaining should suffer for any mana that you have. So they need ability to seal mana nodes and temple in capital should give more Faith, but remove Palace mana. But on other hand devotion to this religions is most strong, so Faith gaining should be best. Empyrean is all about enlightenment so it must give some spell research, but banish all dark mana. AV is same(except banning light mana), because demons are very proficient in magic, and can teach their mortal slaves some of it. FoL and RoK: elemental mana is manifistation of Nature's power, so this mana nodes can be shrines to FoL and RoK. And this religions don't care about the rest.
Third sugg:it looks like conventional means of war will be too weak to be used on their own, because good units can be obtained only with battle experience. I think that all battle units should have 2 new abilities: demobilization and training. Both will make unit
1 and unmovable. Only demobilization will decrease maintenance and slightly "eat" unit's exp and training will increase maintenance and give exp. May be you can add Training camp as new feature, so training can be used only outside cities. Return from demobilization can be few turn ability, so you can't react immediately on war declaration(troops need some time to return)

Would like to see any reviews for my ideas.

 

[tesb]

I think that OO and Order can't stand another power in their land, so efficiency of Faith gaining should suffer for any mana that you have. So they need ability to seal mana nodes and temple in capital should give more Faith, but remove Palace mana. But on other hand devotion to this religions is most strong, so Faith gaining should be best. Empyrean is all about enlightenment so it must give some spell research, but banish all dark mana. AV is same(except banning light mana), because demons are very proficient in magic, and can teach their mortal slaves some of it. FoL and RoK: elemental mana is manifistation of Nature's power, so this mana nodes can be shrines to FoL and RoK. And this religions don't care about the rest.

i am not a lore guy but if fall from heaven is based on a dnd campaign arcane magic is quite distinct from divine magic. if there are changes to mana or faith income i would rather tie them to the civilizations instead to the religion to make them more distinct. (imho religions are already quite unique while civilizations could need a bit of uniqueness to them)

Third sugg:it looks like conventional means of war will be too weak to be used on their own, because good units can be obtained only with battle experience. I think that all battle units should have 2 new abilities: demobilization and training. Both will make unit
1 and unmovable. Only demobilization will decrease maintenance and slightly "eat" unit's exp and training will increase maintenance and give exp. May be you can add Training camp as new feature, so training can be used only outside cities. Return from demobilization can be few turn ability, so you can't react immediately on war declaration(troops need some time to return)

wildmana already introduced a training option and even make it more powerful defeats the purpose of xp through combat imho. also it would seem that this suggestion would be a bit micro intensive. i rather have the passive training ability buffed since it is, well passive

edit: you have to choose this option in the menu, maybe you have overlooked this? when you turn it on you palace will train your units and there are more buildings that can be unlocked that train your units further (afaik up to lvl 6)

First one I already posted here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...4&postcount=22.

this one i like

 

[wapamingo]

To be honest, I do like the concept of having some conflict between religion and magic or a deeper connection - depending on religion I suppose. Religion moves the masses, so in some ways religion can dictate people's acceptance for magic. And in some instances powerful mages can rise to the position of deities or at least appearing like one to the people. I guess some examples include the Gythzerai who follow a sorceror turned god, Dragon Lance priest kings who prosecuted mages (as they threatened their power).

I am not a lore person for FFH, but why not role play new material to explain things that are changed.

More dynamic this way. In any case, something to think about after the magic system comes out.

 

[N0Face]

wildmana already introduced a training option and even make it more powerful defeats the purpose of xp through combat imho. also it would seem that this suggestion would be a bit micro intensive. i rather have the passive training ability buffed since it is, well passive
this one i like

As i know, maintenance of troops is increased now, so you can't have big trained army. 1 focused magic attack can wipe out all your troops. This is why I want demobilization ability. With this you can save part of army in your cities(have not said, that demobilized unit should be immune to collateral damage,as it is stationed in it's home) About training-this ability should be quite expensive, so you can have only 1-2 units training. I think that high-level units should have something like combatauras. This trained units will lead army of lower-level ones, because without them a smaller army of magic civ with summoned creatures or mages will completely wipe out them thx to auras and buffs.

About religions&magic-Order and OO looks like religions, that don't tolerate another religions, then why should they like human, that have powers to move mountains(for example)? Empy/AV just don't like "other" Side Of The Force, but can help anybody else. And RoK and FoL are just happy to be one with Nature.

edit:

imho religions are already quite unique while civilizations could need a bit of uniqueness to them

I think, that uniqueness should be obtained by mechanism, not by Lore. And current religions system is more lore focused(divine avenger or balor??? hmmm.. buffs or curses...)
And i really think that you should not limit nations in choices.


edit2: And some great rituals should affect Armageddon Counter as side effect

 

[N0Face]

Sooooo, nobody wants to post here?
I would like to hear more opinions, especially Sephi's.

 

[Imuratep]

I don't know exactly how mana will be generated in the new Wildmana system. The question is: Will it be a yield type (like food, hammers or commerce) or a commerce type (like science, espionage, culture or gold)? If it is a yield type mana nodes could give you it and the mana output could be modified by depending on the node type. If it is a commerce type mana could only be gained by buildings (as there is no mana slider).
In the first case temples or civics of the different religions could decrease the mana outputs of certain mana nodes (for example +1 mana for sunnodes and -1 mana for shadownodes with Empyreon state religion) in the second case you could only decrease the overall mana outcome. Even the Order has nothing against mana in general (they certainly love spirit and law mana), they despise specific mana types instead.
So if mana is a yield type I could imagine something like you said as it differentiates religions (like with the boni/mali for certain mana nodes). If it is a commerce type I don't think it is a good idea.

 

[Valkrionn]

I don't know exactly how mana will be generated in the new Wildmana system. The question is: Will it be a yield type (like food, hammers or commerce) or a commerce type (like science, espionage, culture or gold)? If it is a yield type mana nodes could give you it and the mana output could be modified by depending on the node type. If it is a commerce type mana could only be gained by buildings (as there is no mana slider).
In the first case temples or civics of the different religions could decrease the mana outputs of certain mana nodes (for example +1 mana for sunnodes and -1 mana for shadownodes with Empyreon state religion) in the second case you could only decrease the overall mana outcome. Even the Order has nothing against mana in general (they certainly love spirit and law mana), they despise specific mana types instead.
So if mana is a yield type I could imagine something like you said as it differentiates religions (like with the boni/mali for certain mana nodes). If it is a commerce type I don't think it is a good idea.

I don't know for sure either, but it is fairly safe to say it is NOT a yield. Mostly because there are graphical issues involved with a fourth yield; It's something Opera has tried.

It's not truly a commerce either; It is far more similar to the Gold tracker than anything else, regardless of how it may be tracked in the DLL. I say this because all commerces are generated (in some way) from the Commerce yield. This one is not. From the player's view, there is no slider, there is no connection to any specific yield, it simply accumulates from working certain tiles or building certain buildings; Therefore, not truly a commerce.

However, your main point is incorrect. If it is a commerce, it is still harvestable from mana types. You simply harvest it from the resource boost it grants cities, rather than the tile boost. Or you use python (or C++, really) to do it in some other way.

So basically, your suggestion about religions affecting yields (potentially a good one, IMO) would work regardless of mana being a yield or a commerce.

 

[N0Face]

If full ban of mana for Order and OO is out of question, then it could be system, close to Dragon Age-religion controls mages. It can be hard capping max lvl for spells and rituals or decrease of mana/spell reserch(I like hard capping more). I just don't like idea, when player can freely use both magic and religion. System, where you must choose your path is closer to me.

 

[tesb]

i don't like a hard cap at all.
you still have to make decisions, since focusing on faith or mana requires you to tech quite heavily in either direction. so you can have both only in the mid to late game anyways.

what could be done, would be rituals that increase either one of the income while decreasing the other so you can choose to focus even more, for that end there could even be more religious techs implemented.

game play-wise i would only add game mechanics that allows you to further focus you desired style of play, but restricting it is not a really good decicion imho.



i still fail to see why religions like the order would restrict arcane knowledge. magic is only harnessed by a few secretive invuviduals (unless you are playing as the amurites) while religion is a tool to organize the masses. why would the clergy go after mages who don't interfere in their buisness of controlling the population and whom they don't know anyways since the mages are keeping the secret of arcane knowledge to themselves?

 

[N0Face]

i still fail to see why religions like the order would restrict arcane knowledge. magic is only harnessed by a few secretive invuviduals (unless you are playing as the amurites) while religion is a tool to organize the masses. why would the clergy go after mages who don't interfere in their buisness of controlling the population and whom they don't know anyways since the mages are keeping the secret of arcane knowledge to themselves?

Mana nodes, magic guilds, terraforming and summoned creatures in army are quite hard to notice . Order and OO are all about control, and magic is too powerful to ignore it.

game play-wise i would only add game mechanics that allows you to further focus you desired style of play

As do I. With current system you can choose any religion and after adopting it, just tech to magic. Adding of religious techs is another way to deal with this. But i like idea, when religion and magic can affect each other.

Sooo what do you think about

edit2: And some great rituals should affect Armageddon Counter as side effect

 

[Imuratep]

As long as those mages are only supportig the society that those religions want they should not have a problem. The current spirit, law and life spells are not against the Order's agenda as well as the overlords should have nothing against water, chaos magic casters as they are following OO principles and are making the world more chaotic like the Old Ones/Overlords want it to be (see my sig). The shrines even grant mana so they want at least this type of mana to be used

 

[Tarquelne]

what could be done, would be rituals that increase either one of the income while decreasing the other so you can choose to focus even more, for that end there could even be more religious techs implemented.

I like that. Especially rituals that trade off mana types. (Though I think National Wonders could work. Make you commit, but on a per-game basis.) Very flexible - easy to have your civ+religion fit the lore very well if that's what you want, but you could still go for something else.

i still fail to see why religions like the order would restrict arcane knowledge. magic is only harnessed by a few secretive invuviduals (unless you are playing as the amurites)

Well... because they can be oppressive, paranoid, dogmatic, reactionary, and domineering?

That the individuals are secretive is not going to be seen as a mark in their favor once they're tracked down by the Inquisition.
Trust me on this.

why would the clergy go after mages who don't interfere in their buisness of controlling the population and whom they don't know anyways since the mages are keeping the secret of arcane knowledge to themselves?

"To monopolize power." is just one of many possible answers. You don't need some specific mystical beliefs, just human nature.

But, anyway, there's always this: Mages could be explained as Priest-Mages. Mages fully within and under the control of (or just in charge of) the clerical establishment. Cortex bombs could be involved!

FFH could have some very interesting religion/magic interactions (or more religion/civic interactions. Or magic/civic, etc etc.) Assuming the added complexity would be worth it. But I think that should be done via new features if it's added at all. New civics or "corporations," probably. Not static limits.



Example civic in the "Arcane" category:

Ecclesiastical Monopoly: +20% hammers for Disciple units. Disciple units with Divine Magic have access to first level Arcane spells. Arcane units cannot be built, and any Arcane units owned are lost when the civic is adopted.

 

[N0Face]

New mechanism of Religion vs Magic:
OO and Order should be strongest among religions, but due to control over magic "other side" is banned and elemental magic research is decreased(they don't trust "neutral" mages, so it can be some sort of bureaucracy). "Own side" is untouched. I think that Order should have best buffs and OO - best summons.
AV and Empy:Both of religions boost "Own side" research and ban "other side". Elemental is untouched. I really like idea when Demonic barbarians should be separated and have peace with AV(mb some sacrifice ritual for everybody except Sheaim) and AV summons should be barbarian. AV is about worshiping demons, not controlling them. Empy should have best defensive rituals and summons, but extremly bad in offense.
About RoK and FoL i am not sure. They should be tied to elemental. Mb some rituals that can exchange faith <-> mana

 

[Imuratep]

What makes you think that OO has an extended bureaucracy? They are the embodiment of chaos so there won't be a bureaucracy. Even the tower of complacency IMHO isn't due to them actually controlling the population, but because the population's mind isn't strong enough to bear to stay in contact with such a chaotic being. The perfect civic for them would be anarchy with certain phases of golden age. In D&D terms OO certainly would be chaotic evil with a certain drift to chaotic neutral or chaotic neutral with a certain drift to chaotic evil.

Additionally I think we should wait to see how the system actually works before making propositions to improve it.

 

[tesb]

Well... because they can be oppressive, paranoid, dogmatic, reactionary, and domineering?

That the individuals are secretive is not going to be seen as a mark in their favor once they're tracked down by the Inquisition.
Trust me on this.

like you said, they can be. if you choose a fantasy setting akin to the middle ages + magic then you are probably right, but if you look at the ancient mediterranean world the religions / cults were pretty much indifferent to each other (except when you where christian, then you would go to the lions ).

i just don't like the idea from a gameplay perspective that adopting a certain religion should decline your arcane capabilities from the get go. if the player could have the choice like a ritual unlocked at fanaticism that blocked opposing mana but increases mana income that is aligned with the religion then this would be a good idea. and in later techs like theology you could have rituals that increase faith income, but decrease mana income. there could be corresponding rituals in the arcane techline too.

sephi could also implement a third religious tech (for example: corruption -> infernal pact -> x ) that would unlock further faith mechanics/spells (miracles) for that religion.

edit: there could even be more flavor added by making an two additional religious techs per religion that are mutually exclusive and would further define that religion.
for example: corruption -> infernal pact -> X or Y
where x would be more a focus on extermination of enemies and would unlock miracles with that intend and Y is more about enslaving enemies.


tldr: adding choices: i am all for it. limiting choices i am against.

edit2: @imuratep that was my point

 

[Imuratep]

As long there is no obligation to have less mana if you go for the religious line, that's good. This suggestion actually adds strategic depth instead of removing it.

 

[N0Face]

I just don't like system, when you must take religion(choi&#1089;e is mostly flavour) and then go your way. With current tech tree religion is too easy to take and will give too much power for its cost. And i really want religions, different in mechanism, not just flavour. AV - uncontrollable , but cheap summons and peace with demons; OO-very strong, but expensive summons and chaotic spells(chance to go insane or summon something, you did not intented to), Empy-strongest in defence, Order-best buffing of your army, FoL ad RoK-emm don't have an idea.
And those restrictions and "boosters" are based on flavour of religions, stated here http://kael.civfanatics.net/Religions.shtml

 

[Tarquelne]

tldr

Tsk tsk!

I think we're in almost complete agreement (I'd rather use civcs than techs)... but don't ask rhetorical questions and I won't answer them.

 

[Tarquelne]

I just don't like system...

I agree... But IMO that sort of thing - lore-based tweaks, especially restrictions - is best done yourself. Not that people on the forums are closed minded, but anything decreasing re-playability or options is going to be a really tough sell: You need too much agreement and enthusiasm about the exact shape of the solution. I'm convinced it's almost always easier to add to a personal mod than argue.

Though, admittedly, making a whole civ with an Agnostic leader and a built-in custom religion is extreme...



When I played MP my group used a set of civ and religion mana restrictions. That was fun, and no modding necessary. When I play single-player I tend to obey them myself. It's hard for me to care about "off" choices the AI makes. It's got much bigger problems.