Survey: Best Leaders
- Thread starter Hesha
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Izzy at 35 is sacrilege 
....calls for a inquisition! 
Interested in Madrassa logic, My. But then, when one really thinks about it there are not really very many good UBs anyway - consequential and/or synergistic. So "among the top" UBs isn't necessarily saying much..still doesn't make Sal all that good. The extra slots can be nice though if you have Mids, but producing GPs not all that good - except with Mids. And him being spiritual he can switch to Caste some anytime for better specialists.
....calls for a inquisition! Interested in Madrassa logic, My. But then, when one really thinks about it there are not really very many good UBs anyway - consequential and/or synergistic. So "among the top" UBs isn't necessarily saying much..still doesn't make Sal all that good. The extra slots can be nice though if you have Mids, but producing GPs not all that good - except with Mids. And him being spiritual he can switch to Caste some anytime for better specialists.
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Fippy
Mycro Junkie
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I think Madrassa has many useful options that can come in handy 
For one, getting more culture on a top rated building (only granary higher probably) can help with fighting off culture.
4 is already good, but 8 after double outright powerful for holding tiles without any additional effort needed.
Taking over barb cities via culture also becomes more viable.
Later, captured cities that whip one can get their tiles a bit quicker.
Same for seafood i.e. at our own cities, if we decide monument not worth building.
Priest slots can help getting a golden age person (as good as any other then), while keeping slavery. Ofc this would be more powerful without SPI and easier Caste switches.
And finally in rare cases, Theo bulb can be nice.
As an overall package i think that's very good, buffing an already very useful building.
For one, getting more culture on a top rated building (only granary higher probably) can help with fighting off culture.
4 is already good, but 8 after double outright powerful for holding tiles without any additional effort needed.
Taking over barb cities via culture also becomes more viable.
Later, captured cities that whip one can get their tiles a bit quicker.
Same for seafood i.e. at our own cities, if we decide monument not worth building.
Priest slots can help getting a golden age person (as good as any other then), while keeping slavery. Ofc this would be more powerful without SPI and easier Caste switches.
And finally in rare cases, Theo bulb can be nice.
As an overall package i think that's very good, buffing an already very useful building.
Snowbird
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And Monty at 48... Good traits and good UB surely outweigh starting with mysticism...Madrassa gets underrated for no reason imo, close to top UB for me.
Izzy at 35
Fippy
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Hmm..those starting techs really hurt Monty, same for Boudi, with Agg it's nice if we can make faster progress towards BW + Wheel for Axe rushes.
Same for Jaguars, who can be great on forested maps. So here Myst and Hunting not only slow overall progress, but also take wind out of his specials.
I guess it's also still common that Agg is consided 2nd worst for traits.
Unfortunate for those leaders overall, Alex also among them (but i would say he's still between 20 and 30, PHI and Odeon).
Same for Jaguars, who can be great on forested maps. So here Myst and Hunting not only slow overall progress, but also take wind out of his specials.
I guess it's also still common that Agg is consided 2nd worst for traits.
Unfortunate for those leaders overall, Alex also among them (but i would say he's still between 20 and 30, PHI and Odeon).
Snowbird
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Since SA is cheaper than courthouse (chop and two whip) I take Monty's AGG over anyone's (restricted leaders) Org. If one goes for Code of Laws earlish, Spi helps into flipping caste/slavery.Is SPI+AGG really good though? I like SPI, but I don't think that's a great combo, since no real economical boost. SA is ok, but it's still just a courthouse.For me too, there are easily 40 better leaders.
In case you get boxed into two/three cities at least jaguars provide some options if no copper/horse is present.
I like Monty, but it is likely win more... meaning he is good than you get good chunk of land with serious amount of food surplus. Without food surplus SA is not doing much true.
Wrathful
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I agree, "mediocre" was a poor word choice. It's definitely a good UB. I still think Boudica is better though; she has better traits and a better UU.
RE Isabella: Looking back on it, I think she definitely beats Zara, so that bumps her up to 34. And I can see the argument for her being better than Catherine, Joao, and Washington as well. But I don't think she beats Gilgamesh. He has much better starting techs and good uniques too. If he wasn't PRO he's be in the high 20s probably. Isabella certainly has loads of potential though. And yes, I have seen Lain's game with her.
RE Monty: You can make an argument for him being better than Justinian and maybe Genghis, but Brennus is absolutely better due to his traits and good UU. Also, my understanding is that this survey was intended for Fractal maps. Monty's Jaguars would certainly be better on map scripts like Arboria and Boreal, but for these rankings to be meaningful, I think we have to stick with a single map script.
Fippy
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On a side note, i consider fishing as good starting tech
At least 50% of starts i found myself on the coast, comes with playing maps like Fractal much more than Pangaea.
So for me Izzy has one bad tech. I prefer fishing over wheel, those couple more beakers dun matter.
At least 50% of starts i found myself on the coast, comes with playing maps like Fractal much more than Pangaea.
So for me Izzy has one bad tech. I prefer fishing over wheel, those couple more beakers dun matter.
@Fippy well, depends on what one compares with... I don't like fishing too much, second worst starting tech imho. (Worst being myst, but there are bright spots with myst too, such as early SH failgold and possibility to rush masonry.)
I too play mostly fractal, and one often teches fishing quite early on, but the situations where one really wants fishing as a starting tech is if you start with only seafood (no agriculture resource, or perhaps just dry rice). But even in many such situations, you have a 3F tile and can perform some damage reduction by growing to size2 and getting a warrior out first, which usually coincides with fishing being done.
I'm a sucker for TW myself, rating it as one of the best starting techs.
I too play mostly fractal, and one often teches fishing quite early on, but the situations where one really wants fishing as a starting tech is if you start with only seafood (no agriculture resource, or perhaps just dry rice). But even in many such situations, you have a 3F tile and can perform some damage reduction by growing to size2 and getting a warrior out first, which usually coincides with fishing being done.
I'm a sucker for TW myself, rating it as one of the best starting techs.
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Yeah, I don't think fishing is all that bad either..not great mind you...but ok. I do like TW a lot myself..most expensive tech...but still really needs to be paired with something nice like Ag or Mining. Like with Justy it just doesn't work well....ugh
AG+TW I find very flexible and easily second best combo to AG/Mining.
AG+TW I find very flexible and easily second best combo to AG/Mining.
Fippy
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Okay
Well i really like building a workboat first for fish, ofc a strong Agri resource and worker first is usually better, but can be teched too (unlike AH).
I only consider Agri as top starting tech overall, Mining gets slightly overrated imo cos it's cheap.
Overall i look much more at potential than techs when rating leaders, would explain why i have Izzy as top 10 easily.
Even when heavily outnumbered in cities or units, Conqs can go thru AIs like butter.
And her traits mix up well, expansive is great early and SPI in mid/late game.
Well i really like building a workboat first for fish, ofc a strong Agri resource and worker first is usually better, but can be teched too (unlike AH).
I only consider Agri as top starting tech overall, Mining gets slightly overrated imo cos it's cheap.
Overall i look much more at potential than techs when rating leaders, would explain why i have Izzy as top 10 easily.
Even when heavily outnumbered in cities or units, Conqs can go thru AIs like butter.
And her traits mix up well, expansive is great early and SPI in mid/late game.
Tobiyogi
King
Thanks for that post, I love to see a completed list, helps me for my own ranking that I have not given up on yet
Overall a nice ranking, where I basically would rate Ashoka and Cyrus lower, and Willem + Isabella + Catherine higher.
I also totally agree with your 5 top bottom leaders. Instead of Justinian (I both like UU and UB...) and Dschingis (really good synergies), I would lower the positioning for Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt (winners of World War II, but not really winners in Civ 4). I know Rosy can be good, but on most maps, he probably won't.
Edit: Stalin has only 1 advantage, being the only AGG guy starting with mining. If you don't have copper nearby though, he is even under worst 5 imo. (If you start with double deer, stone/marble and copper close, then this exceptional map will be the game of your life
)
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Is there really any start that can really screw stalin up bigtime? I don't think there is.
It's not like being celts and start with clams, or toku and start with cows.
I don't think I have ever cringed when rolled stalin, so he can't be that bad!
But then again, I do like agg.
It's not like being celts and start with clams, or toku and start with cows.
I don't think I have ever cringed when rolled stalin, so he can't be that bad!
But then again, I do like agg.
Tobiyogi
King
I am never against IND when it comes with a second economy-supporting trait....Like Bismarck, Louis or de Gaulle, really good guys. Also Ramsees where you build pyramids and switch civics as much as you want... from Stalin game experiences, I found this AGG-IND combination really awkward, especially when you don't have any strategic or WB resource... AGG is not a bad trait either but there are better combos, like Ragnar with his nice melee-UU and FIN trait. Shaka and Kublai are good as well, because they have very synergetic uniques.
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