TAM Scenarios Requests

[Spearthrower]

TAM is undergoing a lot of changes at present but I think it is reaching a point where it will be "complete" for vanilla cIV.

As TAM is a great framework for creating side-mods and scenarios, I think it might be a good idea to have a thread so that people can request specific ancient world scenarios that would be interesting. Also, would-be map designers, modders etc will then have an idea what's popular and what people would be interested in.

If anyone has a request, can you add as much detail as possible to explain what you'd like to see?

For example:



The Greco-Persian Wars

Period 5th to 4th century BCE. The Battle of Marathon (490 BCE) is an initial area of attention.

I'd like to see a scenario that presented a more realistic approximation of the times of the Persian Wars. This would put the fragmented city states of Greece into conflict with the might of the Persian empire. The challenge for the player would either be to unite Greek city states against Persia, or play as Persia and conquer Greece.

The map would focus in on Greece and Asia minor and would only include relevent other civs as neutrals that could be persuaded either way for benefits (i.e. Thessaly/Thrace etc). Most of the civs will represent the City States of Greece. No Lydians - they were already conquered by the Persians. Furthest west would be Italian peninsula / SW Carthage.
Furthest North Thrace
Furthest East somewhere in Persia.... possibly all the way to India depending on balance and scales of in between cities (Persia needs to be HUGE and powerful)
South - just a little of Egypt.


Possible civ and some leaders list: (incomplete - more research needed) Obviously not all of these, but as suggestions....

Team 1
Persians - Darius I / Xerxes
Thrace - ?
Thessaly - ?
Carthage - ? (friendly to Persia - hates Syracuse)
Ionia - ? (angry vassal to Persia - can set conditions for it to join Team 2)

Team 2
Athens - Themistocles
Sparta - Leonidas I / Pausanius
Corinth - Oligarch of Bacchanidae (dunno which one!! )
Euboea - ?
Syracuse - ? (happy vassal to Sparta)

Neutrals (Open to discussion - depends on the time with these guys)
Thebes - ? (neutral - friendly to Persia, most Greeks / hates Athens)
Megara - ? (friendly to Team 2)
Phocis - ? (friendly to Team 2)
Mantinea - ? (friendly to Team 2)
Egypt - ? At war with Persia
Cyprus - ? Friendly to Team 2


With various neutrals ready to join forces with either team, a sudden complex war would break out. The Greek Team 2 would need to concentrate on uniting Greece early and trying to consolidate borders while Persia gathers her armies.

Carthage would represent a southern and western check - the Italian peninsula could be included. Stopping Carthage from acquiring Syracuse would be important for the luxury resources offered by this valuable ally.

Ionia is a fan waiting for the . .. .. .. . to hit.... it hates Persia but can't fight alone... this could be engineered to bring Athens, and thereby team 2, into conflict with Persia.

War weariness needs to be massively reduced to allow for pretty much endless warfare.

No settlers, pre-placed cities set to capture only - no razing!

Different civs would have different specialisations.... for example, Athens would rule the sea while Sparta would have the best infantry.

 

[Socrates07]

Great idea.
Definitely need more scenarios for TAM
Personally I would like to see one that focuses on the Greek City-States
there were hundreds of them, all largely independant.
You would need a huge map of Greece, Asia Minor and Southern Italy (especially sicily)
If possible you would want to make the relations between the city states such that minor wars break out all the time but major wars and conquests are rare

 

[Sword Dancer]

How about an Egypt vs. the Hittites scenario? I don't claim to know alot about that period of history, having pretty much specialized in the transition between Rebublican and Imperial Rome.

 

[Spearthrower]

Mmm chariot wars!!

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

How about an Egypt vs. the Hittites scenario? I don't claim to know alot about that period of history, having pretty much specialized in the transition between Rebublican and Imperial Rome.

Yes, I would love to see that.

Also, perhaps the Roman-Carthago wars.

 

[Kalimakhus]

Well, I think the Rome vs Carthage (The Punic Wars) can be the base for an exciting scenario. First it spans a long time. It has several phases. Its main events took place all over the western half of the Mediterranean. It involved several nations besides the main two powers. It had a climax (the adventurous campaign of Hannibal), and a tragic end (the sack of Carthage).

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

Well, I think the Rome vs Carthage (The Punic Wars) can be the base for an exciting scenario. First it spans a long time. It has several phases. Its main events took place all over the western half of the Mediterranean. It involved several nations besides the main two powers. It had a climax (the adventurous campaign of Hannibal), and a tragic end (the sack of Carthage).

Quite true...Shall we crack the whip then, when the team gets done with the Vanilla version

In terms of the nearly 100 years of fighting, regaded as the Greco-Persian wars, beginning with the campaign of Darius, then Xerxes, then the Greek states under Sparta, then under Athens (Dalian league?), then the peace of Calia (spelling?), then a resurgence of Persia...the Ionian revolts, the limited role of the Lydians, the Egyptians, it gets very messy. Speaking of...where would you end the scenario? The Greco-Persian fude isn't really given a firm ending until Alexander roles in and stomps the Persians. That would open the door too far perhaps, though, no?

Both of these scenarios have excellent potential, and would present serious challenges to the human player, given plenty of scripted events, the logistical nightmares, the size and scope of the military actions...you'd have massive land battles and fleet battles...whoah...head spinning...

I think the first challenge would be mabey scoping it down to a series of campaigns.

Thoughts?

 

[Spearthrower]

Speaking of...where would you end the scenario? The Greco-Persian fude isn't really given a firm ending until Alexander roles in and stomps the Persians. That would open the door too far perhaps, though, no?

It'd end when the time is up or the player or AI gets their objective!! Personally, I like to see scenarios set in the appropriate time with relevent civs, units etc.... but I dont want to try to emulate reality exactly or it just becomes a "click next turn button" game.

Historically though, 479 is a pretty good "end" to this particular war..... a year after Thermopylae and Salamis, you get the 2 final battles of Plataea and Mycale, in which the remaining Persian army, cut off from retreat, is utterly routed.


The 3 Punic Wars (or Roman-Carthaginian wars) were: 264 to 241 BC, then218 BC to 201 BC then 149 BC to 146 BC. The last Punic War was a complete farce...... I think the First Punic War would be the perfect setting as it arrays two fairly equal powers against each other. The theatres are spread around the mediterranean from Iberia to Greece and there is lots of land and naval action.

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

It'd end when the time is up or the player or AI gets their objective!! Personally, I like to see scenarios set in the appropriate time with relevent civs, units etc.... but I dont want to try to emulate reality exactly or it just becomes a "click next turn button" game.

Historically though, 479 is a pretty good "end" to this particular war..... a year after Thermopylae and Salamis, you get the 2 final battles of Plataea and Mycale, in which the remaining Persian army, cut off from retreat, is utterly routed.


The 3 Punic Wars (or Roman-Carthaginian wars) were: 264 to 241 BC, then218 BC to 201 BC then 149 BC to 146 BC. The last Punic War was a complete farce...... I think the First Punic War would be the perfect setting as it arrays two fairly equal powers against each other. The theatres are spread around the mediterranean from Iberia to Greece and there is lots of land and naval action.

I see your point regarding these kind of scenarios. Also, I aggree with you concerning the end point, and further, I think it would be more fun (as I feel you are suggesting), to set it up more like a preset map with units and cities, etc...but with very few scripting. The Greco-Persian wars was more of a never ending grudge match anyway, until the Persian forces were finally routed. For simplicity, I think you'd start at 500BC and end at 440BC. That would give the human player(s) 50 years to change history

You could even make the scenario 200 turns long, which is a nice number, and works well with adjusting research and production rates.

Obviously, you'd have to have the Greek's represented by several city states with Sparta and Athens being the strongest, and you'd have Ionia, and Lydia as minor civs, and you'd have Egypt and the Persian empire. I don't really know of any other minor civs that you might want to throw in the mix, but I'm thinking that this source provides a good "cliff-notes" version of the history.

As for the Punic wars, I also think you could either set it up as discussed above, where it's just the two major civs arrayed for war and let the player duke it out with some minor civs thrown in. Or you could get into more detail and just focus on the first Punic War.

The first Punic War scenario would need a zoom in of the Western Med map. The greco-persian wars scenario would need a zoom in of the Eastern Med map. Here is the "cliff-notes" history of the first punic war.

Thoughts?

 

[Spearthrower]

I agree on the low number of years - perhaps a century at most.... but if I end up having anything to do with the design of the scenario, it will have lots of turns (1 turn = 1 month? ) I like to take my time with subtle strategies rather than the arrrgh-time-limit-throw-everything-at-the-enemy kind of scenario. I really didnt enjoy the scenarios that came with the game because of this time limit feeling.

As for the Greco-Persian wars... I think you could safely set up teams and various diplomatic stances and have that as the backdrop. That would set the scene nicely but still allow the player to experience a different game each time.

I definitely agree with having a fairly large number of minor city states in Greece, as well as a number of other civs dotted around the Eastern Med - Ionia is critical to the entire conflict, so it has to be in. Egypt, Carthage, Syracuse etc would simply add flavour and also more enemies/allies for the player if they fight as Persia.

The zoom would cut anything west of the Italian peninsula, anything south of Egypt, anything north of Thrace.... but I really don't know how far east would be necessary to give Persia the feeling of playing with various satrapies. Probably quite a long way, with lots of cities but poor production in each.... they'd need to be 90% conscripted troops, methinks!


The First Punic War is probably the best idea, but the goals would be rather simplistic... i.e. Rome would need to capture Syracuse. If you added the timeframe to include the Second Punic War, you'd have potentially complex and difficult to achieve goals for both sides..... I'd love to do the whole invasion through the Alps as well then rampage with some elephants.

New units would definitely be needed to reflect Rome and Carthage's relative strengths and weaknesses.

Having Nubia and Gaul as neutrals would be interesting if we could add a mercenary system..... Carthage used mercenary heavy and light cavalry to harass and destroy Rome's less trained cavalry. Rome however, had heavily armed and trained infantry that would be hard to stop. With the right camera focus and some tweaks to areas of the map - funneling and terrain based strategies could be both fun and realistic!!!


Both would be a lot of hard work though and I wouldnt know where to start!

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

I agree on the low number of years - perhaps a century at most.... but if I end up having anything to do with the design of the scenario, it will have lots of turns (1 turn = 1 month? ) I like to take my time with subtle strategies rather than the arrrgh-time-limit-throw-everything-at-the-enemy kind of scenario. I really didnt enjoy the scenarios that came with the game because of this time limit feeling.

As for the Greco-Persian wars... I think you could safely set up teams and various diplomatic stances and have that as the backdrop. That would set the scene nicely but still allow the player to experience a different game each time.

I definitely agree with having a fairly large number of minor city states in Greece, as well as a number of other civs dotted around the Eastern Med - Ionia is critical to the entire conflict, so it has to be in. Egypt, Carthage, Syracuse etc would simply add flavour and also more enemies/allies for the player if they fight as Persia.

The zoom would cut anything west of the Italian peninsula, anything south of Egypt, anything north of Thrace.... but I really don't know how far east would be necessary to give Persia the feeling of playing with various satrapies. Probably quite a long way, with lots of cities but poor production in each.... they'd need to be 90% conscripted troops, methinks!


The First Punic War is probably the best idea, but the goals would be rather simplistic... i.e. Rome would need to capture Syracuse. If you added the timeframe to include the Second Punic War, you'd have potentially complex and difficult to achieve goals for both sides..... I'd love to do the whole invasion through the Alps as well then rampage with some elephants.

New units would definitely be needed to reflect Rome and Carthage's relative strengths and weaknesses.

Having Nubia and Gaul as neutrals would be interesting if we could add a mercenary system..... Carthage used mercenary heavy and light cavalry to harass and destroy Rome's less trained cavalry. Rome however, had heavily armed and trained infantry that would be hard to stop. With the right camera focus and some tweaks to areas of the map - funneling and terrain based strategies could be both fun and realistic!!!


Both would be a lot of hard work though and I wouldnt know where to start!

Yes...we need an unmarried guy with no kids, and preferrably independently wealthy (or with minimal job-related time constraints) and also a savvy modder/programmer, lol...(<-I am the antithisis of nearly all of this statement, lol)

However, I would love to see what you and I have already described

 

[Spearthrower]

we need....
an unmarried guy

Check!

with no kids

Check!!

and preferrably independently wealthy

Check!!!

(or with minimal job-related time constraints)

CHECK!!!!

and also a savvy modder/programmer

oh bugger!

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

Good news is that with the other characteristics in the bag for you, you should have plenty of time to become self taught in the last characteristic

 

[Sword Dancer]

Could we get a Magna Graecia map and civs for the latest version of TAM?

 

[davbenbak]

I would really like to see a cradle of civilization type scenario concentrating on mesopotamia and nile river valley especially with BTS and new civs and units now available.

 

[Kalimakhus]

The huge fertile crescent map is already there. With more civs and better placement of resources one can make a good Cradle of Nations scenario.

 

[nothin_personal]

I am a newbie, so this post is probably misplaced. If you could redirect me to a more suited place for my request.
I am an old player, and since the Civ II I was dreamiong about a realistic approach to the ancient Greek world. Now, with the colony status in the BTS, I think this is attainable. A new mod could be created, where you can onlycontrol one city and every other city you build, becomes a colony.
I have several ideas and a deep enough Knowledge of the ancient Greek history to help any such try, but I know nothing about moding. three scenario ideas that I came up with:
Greek Tribes: Dorieans, Ions, Aioleans, Myceneans, and Minoans (SP?). Add Pelasgians and Illyrians, and maybe Troy and Frygia and you got enough to work with. Core game, where your ultimate goal is to make everyone your vassal or colony. Lots of manipulation, treachery and diplomacy micromanagement, with major cities having multiple colonies and vassals. Razing of cities should be deactivated.
Doric Invasion: The Dorieans (the only tribe that posseses Iron working at the begining) start at the north of the map and find their way down to Peloponissos.. The catch? Cities they conquer become colonies after 10 turns and vassals after another 10. They also can't control more than one city at a time. Goal? Establish the city of Sparta at the preordained location (with the premade settler unit that they have to carry and protect for the whole ride). Secondary goal? Occupy the once legendary city of Mycenae!
Persian Wars: Important Greek Cities are on the map, some binded by Vassal or colonial ties (Athens with colonies Miletos and vassals Samos and Chios, Sparta with a couple of sattelite-colony cities (Messinia, Elis with the Zeus Statue Wonder), Korinth with colony Potidaia and vassal(?) Syracuse, Thiva (vassals Voiotiean league and Fokis with the Oracle Wonder), Plataiea, Argos, Rhodes with Colossus etc. Macedonians starting with Aegae get half the religion bonus, but can have more than just one city under control. All those cities are binded by Hllenic religion that acts as ethnicity (spread only when they are built, the Settlers carry it with them and assimilation after conquest). This should have a lot larger impact (double?) than regular religion, so that even though they fight and bicker between themselves, they unite before external danger (usually they do, there always "traitors" like Thiva and Alicarnassus in the Persian wars. This is why a substantial, religion implied, relations bonus works better than a single nation. Outside enemies are various and at all sizes. They can control any number of cities, but pay big maintenance costs. Persian empire with vassal Phoenicia, Egypt, Mesopotamia, has to face multiple mutinies from their vassals before turning west (or maybe Egypt, Mesopotamia starts independand but declining and Persia is at war with them). Former Phoenician colony of Carthagene (Now independant since Motherland iwas capitulated), looks at Sicily as the only expansion road (they hold a city on the Southeast of the island). They have desert (and the end of the map!) surrounding every other way). Upstart Rome breaks free from the Etrouscan league and they have to deal with the consequences before turning East). Finally, at the northern borders, various minor nations are posing a threat (Illyria, Scythia, and others). You can play any of the outside Nation and the 4 motherland cities of Greece (Athens, Sparta, Korinth and Thiva). Wonders already placed the three afformentioned and The hanging Gardens, Pyramids and others build in the area of the game until 750 BC when the game begins.

 

[Breunor]

I think an extended 'Rise of Greece' Scenario could be very nice.

It could start after the Dark Ages, and the idea would be to colonize the world as far as the Greeks did in real life. This would be a little different from standard conquest.

Another could be the Mycenaean period, through the Trojan War. This could be hero-oriented.

Clearly, a Peloponnesian War scenario suggests itself.


Rome also has room for even more. The suggested Punic Wars is obviously a good one. We could also have Roman expansion as a whole; start either before the Samnite Wars or just after. The scenarios that came with the first versions are good topics, the Western fall and the barbarian invasions.

The Rise of Assyria could also be a good one, but it is harder since Assyria got stronger and weaker quite a lot, but starting with the military period around the 8th century could be neat.

Anyway, there is a lot of room for neat stuff!


Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[henryMCVII]

Rome also has room for even more. The suggested Punic Wars is obviously a good one. We could also have Roman expansion as a whole; start either before the Samnite Wars or just after. The scenarios that came with the first versions are good topics, the Western fall and the barbarian invasions.

I agree with that, a Punic Wars sceanrio (with an fitting map) would be one of the best sceanrios so far. An aother great Scenario would be of cource the "Standard" thing: Building up the Roman Imperium.

 

[mithrasinvictus]

I would love to see a challenge type scenario where you see if you could recreate the historical circumstances that ultimately did each of the empires in and see if you could lead the civ(s) through it better than recorded history...