Tech Tree Discussion

[Vokarya]

I second the rudder tech. We need to move some of the naval units around a bit as some are not that useful at the moment.

To repost back from page 7, this was what I had in mind for Rudder:

Rudder (Medieval Era)
Location: X35 Y19
Cost: 700 (equals Theology)
Req Techs: Ship Building AND Smithing
Leads to: Compass

Altered Techs

Compass
Req Techs: Clockworks AND Education AND Rudder

This puts Rudder at the very beginning of the Medieval Era.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

What units get changed if any at Rudder?

I was also thinking should we have an Anchor tech too?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@Vokarya

What units get changed if any at Rudder?

There is currently a problem with all the ancient ships coming in at the same time.

I was also thinking should we have an Anchor tech too?

If you have anchor then it is a stone age tech since stone anchors go way back.

A "Ram" tech would be better imo.

 

[Vokarya]

@Vokarya

What units get changed if any at Rudder?

I was also thinking should we have an Anchor tech too?

I would suggest moving the Cog and Galleass from Compass to Rudder. Compass would keep the Sloop of War and the Adventurer. (In Realism Invictus, Rudder opens up the War Galley and War Galleass, and then the next step is the Cog at Optics. The Viking Berserker and some other pirate units are also available at Rudder.)

I don't think we need Anchor. Rudder fills a gap in naval technology in the early Medieval era. The simplest anchors are stones and those were used in the Bronze Age. I would expect that to be part of the early shipmaking (like Naval Warfare).

 

[Vokarya]

There is currently a problem with all the ancient ships coming in at the same time.

I'll look into this. Maybe Dromon needs to moved here - they date to the 5th century, which is closer to the Medieval than the Classical.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I would suggest moving the Cog and Galleass from Compass to Rudder. Compass would keep the Sloop of War and the Adventurer. (In Realism Invictus, Rudder opens up the War Galley and War Galleass, and then the next step is the Cog at Optics. The Viking Berserker and some other pirate units are also available at Rudder.)

I don't think we need Anchor. Rudder fills a gap in naval technology in the early Medieval era. The simplest anchors are stones and those were used in the Bronze Age. I would expect that to be part of the early shipmaking (like Naval Warfare).

I am thinking that is much too late. There areAncient Eguptian and Phoenician Ships with rudders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudder

I agree there should be a Medieval tech for sea units but not Rudders.

 

[Vokarya]

I am thinking that is much too late. There areAncient Eguptian and Phoenician Ships with rudders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudder

I agree there should be a Medieval tech for sea units but not Rudders.

I think the Realism Invictus version is specifically referring to the pintle-and-gudgeon rudder, and it's just called "Rudder" for the sake of brevity. I'm willing to sacrifice a little accuracy in favor of keeping it easy to remember.

 

[Vokarya]

Side note. I'm working on a reverse Tech Tree to find what techs lead into other techs, and I found a new redundant path:

Battlefield Medicine (currently requires Anatomy AND Chemistry AND Drug Trade AND Nationalism): Drug Trade is redundant (Drug Trade - Alchemy - Stained Glass - Education - Anatomy).

 

[Azurian]

Asian Techs for Classical Era


Acupuncture
Acupuncture, the traditional Chinese medicinal practice of inserting needles into specific points of the body for therapeutic purposes and relieving pain, was first mentioned in the Huangdi Neijing compiled from the 3rd to 2nd centuries BC (Warring States Period to Han Dynasty).[111] The oldest known acupuncture needles made of gold, found in the tomb of Liu Sheng (d. 113 BC), date to the Western Han (202 BC–9 AD); the oldest known stone-carved depiction of acupuncture was made during the Eastern Han (25–220 AD); the oldest known bronze statue of an acupuncture mannequin dates to 1027 during the Song Dynasty (960–1279).[112]

Chemical warfare using bellows, mustard smoke, and lime
As written in the 4th century BC by the Mohists, followers of the philosophy of Mozi (c. 470–c. 391 BC), the Chinese of the Warring States Period (403–221 BC) applied the use of burnt balls of the mustard plant (not to be confused with modern sulfur mustard, or 'mustard gas') as a lethal agent in warfare.

Spoiler :

[184] During a siege, the besieging force would often dig mines under the walls to breach the fortifications of the defenders.[184] As written by the Mohists, the defenders also had the option of digging to meet the enemy's underground tunnel, where bellows connected to furnaces above could be used to pump toxic smoke of burnt mustard and other vegetable material into the shafts.[184] To fight off a peasant revolt in 178 AD during the late Han Dynasty (202 BC–220 AD), riding charioteers of the Imperial forces used portable bellows to pump lime smoke at the enemy, who were ultimately defeated.[185] Powdered lime was also used in lobbed tear gas bombs, such as when the Song Dynasty (960–1279) general Yue Fei (1103–1142) used them with great success against the bandit leader Yang Yao in 1135; when the lime formed a thick fog in the air, Yang's "rebel soldiers could not open their eyes" according to the account of his campaign.[185]

Chromium, use of
The use of chromium was invented in China no later than 210 BC when the Terracotta Army was interred at a site not far from modern Xi'an; modern archaeologists discovered that bronze-tipped crossbow bolts at the site showed no sign of corrosion after more than 2,000 years they had been coated in chromium. Chromium was not used anywhere else until the experiments of Louis Nicolas Vauquelin (1763–1829) in 1797–1798.[190]

Gas cylinder
From deep boreholes drilled during the Han Dynasty (202 BC–220 AD), the Chinese had used bamboo pipelines to transport natural gas to stoves where cast iron pans were used to boil brine and extract salt.[283] A gazetteer written before the 10th century during the Tang Dynasty (618–907) stated that a 'fire well' of Linqiong in what is now Sichuan reached depths of 182 m (600 ft) and spouted flames at the top.[284] It stated that people used the gas from this 'fire well' to fill portable tubes which could be carried around over a hundred li (dozens of km or mi) and still be lit at the end to produce a flame


Merit system
The earliest example of a merit system dates back to the Qin and Han dynasties. In order to maintain power over a large, sprawling empire, it became necessary for the government to maintain a complex network of officials.[376] Prospective officials could come from a rural background and government positions were not restricted to the nobility. Rank was determined by merit, through the civil service examinations, and education became the key for social mobility.[376] After the fall of the Han Dynasty, the nine-rank system was established during the Three Kingdoms period. The concept of a merit system spread from China to British India during the 17th century, and then into continental Europe and the United States.[377]

 

[Vokarya]

Asian Techs for Classical Era


Merit system
The earliest example of a merit system dates back to the Qin and Han dynasties. In order to maintain power over a large, sprawling empire, it became necessary for the government to maintain a complex network of officials.[376] Prospective officials could come from a rural background and government positions were not restricted to the nobility. Rank was determined by merit, through the civil service examinations, and education became the key for social mobility.[376] After the fall of the Han Dynasty, the nine-rank system was established during the Three Kingdoms period. The concept of a merit system spread from China to British India during the 17th century, and then into continental Europe and the United States.[377]

I like this one. The only problem I have with it is that it only existed in China, so I don't know if it should be a mandatory technology anywhere. Here is an idea I came up with:

Meritocracy (Classical Era)
Cost: 400
Prerequisites: Literature AND (Code of Laws OR Democracy)
Leads to: Civil Service
Allows: Founds Confucianism religion

What government buildings do we have in the Classical era? I know we have Courthouse and Town Hall. Some buildings like those should get increased anti-crime, I think.

Altered Techs

Civil Service
Required Techs: Mathematics AND (Feudalism OR Meritocracy)

Does that sound like something we can add?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Asian Techs for Classical Era


Acupuncture
Acupuncture, the traditional Chinese medicinal practice of inserting needles into specific points of the body for therapeutic purposes and relieving pain, was first mentioned in the Huangdi Neijing compiled from the 3rd to 2nd centuries BC (Warring States Period to Han Dynasty).[111] The oldest known acupuncture needles made of gold, found in the tomb of Liu Sheng (d. 113 BC), date to the Western Han (202 BC–9 AD); the oldest known stone-carved depiction of acupuncture was made during the Eastern Han (25–220 AD); the oldest known bronze statue of an acupuncture mannequin dates to 1027 during the Song Dynasty (960–1279).[112]

There is evidence for acupuncture in Europe during the stone age. See the ice man they found awhile back. He had tattoos reminiscent of the latter "written" record for acupuncture on the places where you would apply such a technique to "fix" problems which can still be seen on the "mummy"

 

[Vokarya]

Here's another idea. I'm still in the middle of going over the tech tree and finding all the current redundancies. I know we've discussed them before and removed most of them, but there are still a few. One that I noticed is that Stargazing is a redundant prerequisite for Astrology, because Stargazing leads to Sundial and then Calendar. I also thought about the importance of augury to the Romans and that the I Ching is incredibly ancient, and thought that this might make a good technology:

Divination (Ancient Era)
Cost: 100
Location: X23 Y19
Required Techs: Fungiculture OR Priesthood OR Sacrifice Cult
Leads to: Astrology, Priesthood, Writing
Allows: Augur, Oracle (Wonder)

Altered Techs

Astrology
Required Techs: Calendar AND Divination

Priesthood
Required Techs: (Caste System OR Divination)

Writing
Required Techs: Trade AND (Divination OR Priesthood)

Buildings
Augur
Cost: 40
+2 culture
-25% anger from sacrificing population
-25% war weariness
Obsolete with Theology

I am not implying that Divination has any magical powers, only that it has significant religious significance. Oracle would move here. I do realize that Divination and Priesthood form a loop, but it's an open loop: you can research Fungiculture or Sacrifice Cult to get to Divination and then go from Divination to Priesthood, or you can research Caste System, then Priesthood, and then to Divination.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

Do you think Prophets Civic should be moved to Divination tech?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Both are very good ideas. It'd be nice for Divine Cult and Prophets to come in at separate techs.

 

[Azurian]

I like this one. The only problem I have with it is that it only existed in China, so I don't know if it should be a mandatory technology anywhere. Here is an idea I came up with:

Meritocracy (Classical Era)
Cost: 400
Prerequisites: Literature AND (Code of Laws OR Democracy)
Leads to: Civil Service
Allows: Founds Confucianism religion

What government buildings do we have in the Classical era? I know we have Courthouse and Town Hall. Some buildings like those should get increased anti-crime, I think.

Altered Techs


Civil Service
Required Techs: Mathematics AND (Feudalism OR Meritocracy)

Does that sound like something we can add?

Well Meriotocracy highly increased social mobility (anyone can be in power if they pass tests) so I think an increase of gold should be included. Confuciusism should be included and Terra-Cota Army.

There is evidence for acupuncture in Europe during the stone age. See the ice man they found awhile back. He had tattoos reminiscent of the latter "written" record for acupuncture on the places where you would apply such a technique to "fix" problems which can still be seen on the "mummy"

Yes it was actually on the next page of my history encyclopedia..his name was Otzi.

 

[Vokarya]

@Vokarya

Do you think Prophets Civic should be moved to Divination tech?

You could do that. I considered it but forgot to include it in the writeup. If you do that, I suggest moving Divine Cult a little further down the tech tree. Divine Cult to me suggests a civilization with more organization than Prophets, and Divine Cult is also before Sedentary Lifestyle, which seems a little odd. Maybe DC should be moved to Priesthood? Prophets and Divine Cult are the first two Religion civics that allow you to have a State Religion. In the Prehistoric/Nomadic era, I don't think there is enough sophistication to have a state religion. People who don't like the religion will strike out on their own, which is harder once Sedentary Lifestyle is reached.

I suppose the early religions are one more thing to consider for the Nomadic start.

 

[Azurian]

New Tech Ideas

Classical - Corvée system OR Indenture (very popular in Egypt region)
Corvée is unfree labour, often unpaid, that is required of people of lower social standing and imposed on them by the state or by a superior (such as an aristocrat or noble).

Spoiler :

The corvée was the earliest and most widespread form of taxation, which can be traced back to the beginning of civilization. It was state-imposed forced labour on peasants too poor to pay other forms of taxation (labour in ancient Egyptian is a synonym for taxes).[1] The corvée also existed towards feudal superiors (when there was no state framework), and was sometimes levied anyway even on persons with cash resources.

The corvée differs from chattel slavery in that the worker is not owned outright – being free in various respects other than in the dispensation of his or her labour – and the work is usually intermittent; typically only a certain number of days' or months' work is required each year. It is a form of unfree labour where the worker is not, or not fully, compensated. Unlike other forms of levy, such as a tithe, the corvée does not require the population to have land, crops or cash and thus it tends to be favored in economies where money is in short supply. Corvée is thus most often found in economies where barter is the usual method of trade, or in subsistence economies

.
Should provide similiar benefits to Slavery but costs more but there is more happiness compared to Slavery.

Industrial - Indentured Servants
Identured servitude refers to the historical practice of contracting to work for a fixed period of time, typically three to seven years, in exchange for transportation, food, clothing, lodging and other necessities during the term of indenture.

Spoiler :

In Usually the father made the arrangements and signed the paperwork.[1] They included men and women; most were under the age of 21, and most became helpers on farms or house servants. They were not paid cash. It was a system that provided jobs and—most important—transportation for poor young people from the overcrowded labor markets (such as Europe) who wanted to come to labor-short areas (at first, principally America, later, other colonies), but had no money to pay for it. The great majority became farmers and farm wives.[1]

Benefits should be based in naval buildings or boats???/

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

I sent tech requests to SO for Rudder, Meritocracy and Divination.

Meritocracy was put a X30 Y1 and I made it a requirement for Philosophy (instead of Literature).

 

[Azurian]

Source text
maybe include some ancient form of libaries...Libary of Alexandria can be moved here..
Most of what is known of the ancient world comes from the accounts of antiquity's own historians.

Spoiler :

Although it is important to take into account the bias of each ancient author, their accounts are the basis for our understanding of the ancient past. Some of the more notable ancient writers include Herodotus, Thucydides, Polybius, Sima Qian, Sallust, Livy, Josephus, Suetonius, and Tacitus.

The earliest known systematic historical thought emerged in ancient Greece, beginning with Herodotus of Halicarnassus (484 BC–ca.425 BC). Thucydides largely eliminated divine causality in his account of the war between Athens and Sparta,[34] establishing a rationalistic element which set a precedent for subsequent Western historical writings. He was also the first to distinguish between cause and immediate origins of an event.[34]

[

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

New Tech Ideas

Classical - Corvée system OR Indenture (very popular in Egypt region)
Corvée is unfree labour, often unpaid, that is required of people of lower social standing and imposed on them by the state or by a superior (such as an aristocrat or noble).

Spoiler :

The corvée was the earliest and most widespread form of taxation, which can be traced back to the beginning of civilization. It was state-imposed forced labour on peasants too poor to pay other forms of taxation (labour in ancient Egyptian is a synonym for taxes).[1] The corvée also existed towards feudal superiors (when there was no state framework), and was sometimes levied anyway even on persons with cash resources.

The corvée differs from chattel slavery in that the worker is not owned outright – being free in various respects other than in the dispensation of his or her labour – and the work is usually intermittent; typically only a certain number of days' or months' work is required each year. It is a form of unfree labour where the worker is not, or not fully, compensated. Unlike other forms of levy, such as a tithe, the corvée does not require the population to have land, crops or cash and thus it tends to be favored in economies where money is in short supply. Corvée is thus most often found in economies where barter is the usual method of trade, or in subsistence economies

.
Should provide similiar benefits to Slavery but costs more but there is more happiness compared to Slavery.

Industrial - Indentured Servants
Identured servitude refers to the historical practice of contracting to work for a fixed period of time, typically three to seven years, in exchange for transportation, food, clothing, lodging and other necessities during the term of indenture.

Spoiler :

In Usually the father made the arrangements and signed the paperwork.[1] They included men and women; most were under the age of 21, and most became helpers on farms or house servants. They were not paid cash. It was a system that provided jobs and—most important—transportation for poor young people from the overcrowded labor markets (such as Europe) who wanted to come to labor-short areas (at first, principally America, later, other colonies), but had no money to pay for it. The great majority became farmers and farm wives.[1]

Benefits should be based in naval buildings or boats???/

I would suggest that these may be better as units or labour civics or city specialists or a combination of these. It would give us more worker (or slave) types. In which case we need an existing tech or a new tech for them.