The Carthage Thread

[reddishrecue]

Or, maybe, as I said, "White," "Black," and, "Yelllow," and that being it, is a very outmoded and obsoolete - and racsit system - despite Henri's championing of it.

I understand that but unfortunately it still exists. I don't use it but it exists even in the civilopedia even.

 

[Patine]

I understand that but unfortunately it still exists. I don't use it but it exists even in the civilopedia even.

It DID exist, but is now viewed in all credible circles as outmded, obsolete, and racist. You portray it's status as, "currently accepted," and as though in a solid consensus the way you portray North Africans as being, "White," by some similar assumed consensus. Civiliopedia still contains a number of anachronisms - that doesn't make them correct.

 

[reddishrecue]

It DID exist, but is now viewed in all credible circles as outmded, obsolete, and racist. You portray it's status as, "currently accepted," and as though in a solid consensus the way you portray North Africans as being, "White," by some similar assumed consensus. Civiliopedia still contains a number of anachronisms - that doesn't make them correct.

It still does. I just applied somewhere and one of the choices was white(European or north African descent) in the ethnicity options. Just an example.

 

[Patine]

It still does. I just applied somewhere and one of the choices was white(European or north African descent) in the ethnicity options. Just an example.

I'm not sure where this is drawn from, or why you portray it as current, consensus on the issue and not just an outmoded and denumked ideal still held by only a minority. You are trying to make it sound like it's the widely accepted ideal and that I'm wrong, but have presented nothing but, "applying it somewhere," and other oblique references. I mean, you're first attempt to back this was, "where the Romans had conquered," for crying out loud.

 

[reddishrecue]

I'm not sure where this is drawn from, or why you portray it as current, consensus on the issue and not just an outmoded and denumked ideal still held by only a minority. You are trying to make it sound like it's the widely accepted ideal and that I'm wrong, but have presented nothing but, "applying it somewhere," and other oblique references. I mean, you're first attempt to back this was, "where the Romans had conquered," for crying out loud.

I am not talking about black or white, thats not the point. I'm talking about Carthage and its relevant history. Rome happened to be around when Carthage was around at that time period.

 

[Patine]

I am not talking about black or white, thats not the point. I'm talking about Carthage and its relevant history. Rome happened to be around when Carthage was around at that time period.

No, that wasn't what you were saying, above.

 

[reddishrecue]

No, that wasn't what you were saying, above.

Yeah but that's not what the forum topic is about. The forum topic is about Carthage and anything that's civ related to it.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

So, regarding leaders is there anything on Phoenician leaders, not necessarily from Carthage, that could be used as potential leader abilities without having to dive into mythological/religious texts?

 

[reddishrecue]

This is going nowhere. And your attempts to backtrack and deny what you had previously said are making it more difficult. I am ending this specific fruitless topic.

Thats true.. I do say a lot of things.

 

[Henri Christophe]

that Henri could not accept existed.

3-race-theory that Henri cherishes

despite Henri's championing of it

I guess Patine loves me, because I was out of forum for few days to solve problems in my own life and he quoted me 3 times.

Hannibal was not black, in case any one here needed to be told

I can accept Hannibal be white, since it's a phoenician colony. Maybe not European white, but white as a Middle East person.
But despite Hannibal's color of skin, he is an indigenous African person and that's why I do believe is more cool a Carthage civ than a Phoenician, because of Africa have already few civs and from nowadays Tunisia the only civ then Carthage who can be made is the Fatimid dinasty, but I can't see they appearing in Civ 7 either, since all arabs dynasties is bloobed in an Arabia civ (propably lead by Saladin).
But, very important, Hannibal isn't the best name to lead a Carthage civ, why we don't stick with Dido, who was a women and we need women representation either.
And before someone said Dido can't be a leader because it's mythological, I already point out this is a weak argue.

 

[Patine]

I can accept Hannibal be white, since it's a phoenician colony. Maybe not European white, but white as a Middle East person.

Not White. Not Black. The same racial appearance as I talked about for Rameses, which is neither, "White," nor, "Black," (nor, "Yellow," - it si possible).

But despite Hannibal's color of skin, he is an indigenous African person

This is a contrived statement that doesn't realy mean anything, especially not in the days of the Carthiginians. "Africa," had yet to be even used geographically in a contempory way for the first time in Hannibal's day - and wouldn't be for decades later, when it was first used, in history, as the name of a Roman Province occupying most of Northern Algeria and Morocco, to the west of (but not including) Carthogo Nova, the cities the Romas built on the ruins of Carthage. And, for several centuries thereafter, that Province WAS Africa, definitively, in all references, and even when the Vandals conquered the area, they still used the Roman Provincial term, "Africa," and the Byzantines, when they conquered the region, called it the Exarchate of Africa, and the short-lived, early Medieval Norman Kingdom of Africa in the region did, too. It would not be until the Colonial Age that the term would apply to the whole continent.

Also, you're mixing of racial/cultural Africans and geographical Africans is a sloppy terminology. And, besides, as I've said, it doesn't matter what continent someone is from in terms of some more or less of an inherent right to be represented in a Civ game, by some contrivance or counter-productive things like continental quotas and caps, which leads to toxic and presumptuous terminology like, "stolen slots." As I've said, things need to be more wholistic.

 

[jsciv69]

I guess Patine loves me, because I was out of forum for few days to solve problems in my own life and he quoted me 3 times.

I can accept Hannibal be white, since it's a phoenician colony. Maybe not European white, but white as a Middle East person.
But despite Hannibal's color of skin, he is an indigenous African person and that's why I do believe is more cool a Carthage civ than a Phoenician, because of Africa have already few civs and from nowadays Tunisia the only civ then Carthage who can be made is the Fatimid dinasty, but I can't see they appearing in Civ 7 either, since all arabs dynasties is bloobed in an Arabia civ (propably lead by Saladin).
But, very important, Hannibal isn't the best name to lead a Carthage civ, why we don't stick with Dido, who was a women and we need women representation either.
And before someone said Dido can't be a leader because it's mythological, I already point out this is a weak argue.

Some names are forever linked with certain places in History. Hannibal Barca is Carthage. And if Carthage is to return, the General would be the first name to consider. As to his complexion. Since he was born in North Africa, it's reasonable to see him as a slight darker than his Phoenician cousins. And I do think it would be more geographically accurate to have both Carthage and the Ancient Phoenician City-States in the same game.

 

[Evie]

Hannibal Barca is Carthage only to people whose historical knowledge is superficial at best.

 

[pokiehl]

Hannibal Barca is Carthage only to people whose historical knowledge is superficial at best.

I think that’s a needless sneer to players. The audience of this game isn’t historians of the classical Mediterranean, and there’s something to be said for the drawing power of a faction’s most famous and notable leader (these tend to be fan favorites for a reason - people like engaging with popular history). That said, there’s also plenty of room to innovate and use lesser known personalities in most cases.

 

[Evie]

While I agree he's the most famous Carthaginian ans there is something to be said for letting him have his turn, his turn so far has been three out of the four games Carthage was in (three out of five counting Phoenicia in VI).

And to go from "he's the most famous and that's a case from using him" to "He is Carthage" is a gross overstatement that requires not only lack of knowledge but a lack of interest in knowledge - an assumption that what you know must be the only part of history worth knowing. That, yes, I will call out.

 

[pokiehl]

"He is Carthage" is a gross overstatement that requires not only lack of knowledge but a lack of interest in knowledge - an assumption that what you know must be the only part of history worth knowing. That, yes, I will call out.

I think you’re attributing way too much to the posters simple, factual statement that Hannibal embodies Carthage in popular conception.

That is plainly true just like Genghis does for the Mongols. Recognizing it is not some means to denigrate other aspects of history.

 

[reddishrecue]

I guess Patine loves me, because I was out of forum for few days to solve problems in my own life and he quoted me 3 times.

I can accept Hannibal be white, since it's a phoenician colony. Maybe not European white, but white as a Middle East person.
But despite Hannibal's color of skin, he is an indigenous African person and that's why I do believe is more cool a Carthage civ than a Phoenician, because of Africa have already few civs and from nowadays Tunisia the only civ then Carthage who can be made is the Fatimid dinasty, but I can't see they appearing in Civ 7 either, since all arabs dynasties is bloobed in an Arabia civ (propably lead by Saladin).
But, very important, Hannibal isn't the best name to lead a Carthage civ, why we don't stick with Dido, who was a women and we need women representation either.
And before someone said Dido can't be a leader because it's mythological, I already point out this is a weak argue.

I agree, the Romans would send the missionaries to the indigenous people so that they could teach them the ways of Rome in exchange for their lands which the natives considered "theirs". This was after the Punic wars when Rome had finally won. Sort of like the LDS building their temples on Shoshone lands in the Americas during the 19th century.

 

[jsciv69]

While I agree he's the most famous Carthaginian ans there is something to be said for letting him have his turn, his turn so far has been three out of the four games Carthage was in (three out of five counting Phoenicia in VI).

And to go from "he's the most famous and that's a case from using him" to "He is Carthage" is a gross overstatement that requires not only lack of knowledge but a lack of interest in knowledge - an assumption that what you know must be the only part of history worth knowing. That, yes, I will call out.

My point is when Carthage is mentioned. Likely the first thing that comes to mind is the Punic Wars with Rome. Which means Hannibal and his War Elephants. Of course Carthage has a history beyond that. As well as other personalities to consider for Leader. Dido was used in Civ V. Civ VI having Phoenicia as a full Civ is not accurate. As these were individual City-States. Civ V got that right. Having both Carthage and the Phoenician City States in the same game. So again if Carthage is to duly return, Hannibal would be the ideal 1st choice for the Base game. And alternate options with the expansions.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

My point is when Carthage is mentioned. Likely the first thing that comes to mind is the Punic Wars with Rome. Which means Hannibal and his War Elephants. Of course Carthage has a history beyond that. As well as other personalities to consider for Leader. Dido was used in Civ V. Civ VI having Phoenicia as a full Civ is not accurate. As these were individual City-States. Civ V got that right. Having both Carthage and the Phoenician City States in the same game. So again if Carthage is to duly return, Hannibal would be the ideal 1st choice for the Base game. And alternate options with the expansions.

Carthage was also Phoenician city. I still don't understand the need to separate Carthage from Phoenicia, when they can both be part of the same civilization? And being a collection of city-states with similar cultures does not disqualify a group of people from being civilizations, such as Greece, the Maya, Sumerians etc.
I've even mentioned in my design the potential of Hannibal leading the Phoenicians, with his capital at Carthage.

 

[pokiehl]

I myself would like having both Phoenicia and Carthage as full civs.