The Community Deity Game #11 - Venice

[beetle]

How long do you wait before buying the first CS?

In a normal Venice game, I don't think you would wait at all. Easiest and strongest way to play is four city Tradition, so you want three CS for coastal trade routes back to Venice ASAP. You would stop at three CS because CS allies are better than CS puppets, Venice or no. It is always a tough choice, since that is true even for the first three with their two free buildings. I guess one hopes for a nearby hostile Military CS with a weak UU? Or a Mercantile CS where you can expect to get their unique lux from another Mercantile CS with the same lux?

My point is that there are no good choices, so not much point on waiting. It is the least bad choice of CS that is within early TR range.

 

[Nigel_Tufnel2]

I found it desirable to get BW somewhat early, and make many CS buy decisions (and conquests) based on iron for Frigates. Getting some, and also denying it to the AI.

 

[Shark Diver]

I found it desirable to get BW somewhat early, and make many CS buy decisions (and conquests) based on iron for Frigates. Getting some, and also denying it to the AI.

Especially on this map. Iron was scarce, so I puppeted the nearest CS with iron (and burned a GG to get it within my borders).

 

[zxcvbob]

Especially on this map. Iron was scarce, so I puppeted the nearest CS with iron (and burned a GG to get it within my borders).

It was maddening that as my borders expanded, they seemed to be actively avoiding the iron in the 4-ring.

 

[zxcvbob]

I usually buy my first city around 70-85.

What do you do with your MoV from researching Optics? Customs House or trade mission? Or do you save him for 30 turns or so and then buy a city state? (on this map, there's no place to put a customs house)

 

[budweiser]

What do you do with your MoV from researching Optics? Customs House or trade mission? Or do you save him for 30 turns or so and then buy a city state? (on this map, there's no place to put a customs house)

In a regular Venice game, I might go to Philo before optics. In this game, following the same path would be faster. I would use the MoV to get a CS here for a food route.

 

[Wild_Woojsha]

I would have added more Iron in when creating the map but... April fools!!!

 

[Shark Diver]

I would use the MoV to get a CS here for a food route.

I wonder how big Venice got for some of you who got to t300? I think my cap was above 33 pop when the game ended. I had 2 cargo ships and my lone caravan sending food to Venice the entire game and also completed Tradition very early.

 

[zxcvbob]

Well, I'm 199 turns in (I started over at turn 50.) I've taken full Tradition, left side of Honor, and I just burned a great writer to get me closer to finishing Commerce (4 turns away from Protectionism now). Then I better start on Rationalism to catch up a little. I don't know yet if I have any oil, but lots of the AI's and CS's have oil so I assume I have at least a little -- or can get some.

Spoiler :

I declared war on Dido when she tried to colonize my island. She has the biggest military at the time, and I was in the bottom half of the pack. I beat her down to size and gained experience for my galleasses, and I took one city, then made peace because Attila asked me to join him in war against Austria. I took Vienna and several other cities and allied CS's, then gave Maria Theresa a decent peace deal because Dido wants me to join her in a war with Alexander (and Alex has lots of iron) With my luck, I will capture Athens just in time for frigates to be obsolete and I won't need the iron.
Dido has taken Autocracy already. I may need to do the same because she's the tourism leader.

Securing iron to upgrade my 10 great galleasses has been a big part of my focus. I took Range for my 3rd promotion on most of my galleasses and frigates, and took potshots at cities when they had nothing better todo to level them up. Some of them are up to about level 9, with Range and Logistics and Supply (not sure why Indirect Fire hasn't shown up as an option yet) Those are going to be awesome battleships someday. With a couple I went straight for Logistics and was just careful not to let them take too much damage from return fire from cities or crossbows.

I really need to get some submarines. Maybe I can use Oxford to tech Refrigeration.

 

[beetle]

I took Range for my 3rd promotion on most of my galleasses and frigates

I think that is smart. I used to hold out for Logistics, but that is the 5th promotion. The Byzantium CDG has broken me of that habit.

not sure why Indirect Fire hasn't shown up as an option yet

Because it never is an option!

 

[zxcvbob]

As I was trying to decide which ideology to pick, my computer crashed (I'm posting this from a netbook) so I'm done for the night -- let the computer cool off. I had already decided to take Autocracy just like the culture leader (and science leader, and military leader, and most cities, she's ahead in every category.) The same turn that I popped Refrigeration (so ideology on the next turn) another AI also picked Autocracy. So I'm thinking about going Order for the 2 early adopter tenets and all the science and production boosts. The initial happiness hit is gonna hurt if I do that.

Spoiler :

Dido and I are at war with Alex; I've captured one of his allied CS's to use as an operating base, and then defending it as he tries to retake it. (I've killed dozens of frigates and knights and Gatling guns) I have plenty of oil, and I'm bee-lining Electronics to upgrade my frigates to battleships, and I'm going to need Flight pretty soon for some triplanes. Alex is the one who picked Autocracy one turn before me.

My plan was to start spamming submarines, and at some point double-cross Dido and sink her navy. Then push (especially if I can get my good friend Attila to join me) and start taking her cities. I want her Forbidden Palace. I might still do that, but she's been spamming subs already so I will have to be careful.

I may abandon that idea of not razing any cities. I haven't razed any yet, but there are trashy little AI cities all over the map. I captured one and then abandoned it and let a CS capture it (thinking they would raze it) and they kept it! So I captured it back, but I don't really want it -- one tile island with no resources, unless maybe it's sitting on the only uranium on the map.

ETA: Well, I'm later to the ideology party than I thought. Two civs have picked Autocracy and 2 have picked Order. It's a tough choice because I really want to stay friends with both the Order civs; I'm killing one of the Autocracy civs now and will turn on the other one next (hopefully she builds Prora for me)

That 3rd-level Order tenet with the free courthouses doesn't really do anything for Venice does it? (except for the internal trade route thing)

 

[beetle]

Finally got around last night to playing a hundred turns and I am having a hoot! I have not yet built NC, but I have Great Lighthouse, Colossus, Hanging Gardens, and Petra. Just got my 12th trade route up. So far, I am only using gold for CS allies, in 1K bursts.

After two scouts, I have not had time for units. I just hit the Medieval and puppeted my second CS. Two AIs have just settled opposite pointy bits of “my” starting island, so it should be war from here on out.

I am not going to try and puppet the whole map, as that seems like it would be kind of tedious. I am going to try and get the five CS in six eras. In a normal Venice game, I would stop at three CS.

For religion, I picked Mosques, Pagodas, Papal Primacy and Religious Unity. With all the nearby CS, I am hoping to overwhelm the other religions. But I am not really getting anything from my religion, since I would allies with every CS anyway. But with the first policy in Patronage, controlling the CS should be significantly faster than usual.

Before you download the map, please take a moment to speculate here in this thread on your initials thoughts plans for the game. Do you like tampered maps? Do you like to fight for city states? Do you like green eggs and ham?

I had been putting off playing this game I didn’t think I would like such a blatantly tampered map. Yes, I like to fight for city states. Plan is to turtle until I have 4+ GG then see who I can harass. Will you please go now?

Bought one city state, don't know if I'll be able to get that many GMoVs

Your early puppets will each spawn their own GMoV, so getting five puppets in the first six eras should not be too hard. If I get LToP, it will be for a GMoV. Closing out Commerce lets one faith purchase GMoV, but that might be too late for the achievement. I think late GMoVs trade missions generate like 2K gold. After I open Rationalism (mostly just to unlock Porcelain Tower), I plan to fill out Commerce (to unlock the GMoV purchase), and only then back to Patronage. I hate to miss Exploration, but there are too many good choices, so something has to be skipped.

@Shark Diver - My first puppet did get a free Aqueduct, but no free culture building.

Hmm, my first puppet got a free monument. Maybe yours already had that? If so, I think you will get a free amphitheater in that city.

That 3rd-level Order tenet with the free courthouses doesn't really do anything for Venice does it? (except for the internal trade route thing)

The 2nd-level half price factories is also gimped since you have to buy your puppet factories. And the Autocracy 2nd-level half price extra happy courthouses is also nerfed for Venice. I am hoping to run Freedom.

 

[zxcvbob]

I'm doing pretty well, but it's getting tedious. I haven't razed any cities yet, but that's a trap; all those useless puppet cities increase your technology costs and they don't really contribute anything. I sold one city to an AI who likes to raze cities, and I've given him a couple more, but you have to puppet the city first and that raises your science and social policy costs.

I'm about 4 techs behind the leader, but they are very important techs; I have subs and I'm researching flight (don't remember how many turns it has left.) She has more subs than I do, and has planes, GW infantry, and battleships. My best spy is in her second-largest city and hopefully will be able to steal electronics. The more cities she captures, the faster she researches new techs; must be a deity AI thing.

Spoiler :

Even tho' Dido and I are warring against Alex (and she invited me to the war) and I recently voted for her to host the world congress, she just denounced me. I didn't expect that until after the war with Greece was over. It happened right after I captured Athens; she says I'm settling new cities too rapidly.

Perhaps I should sic Attila on her (he and I are great friends at the moment) but she will destroy him with those subs and battleships and I'm not ready for that yet. I can take her when I get battleships, but that's quite a few turns away even if I do steal electronics. I really don't want to risk losing any of my level-10 frigates by starting too early.

Freedom might have been a better ideology choice, but I wasn't ready to be instant enemy with *every* AI. My friendships with a couple of them have been useful for research agreements and trades.

 

[beetle]

I haven't razed any cities yet, but that's a trap; all those useless puppet cities increase your technology costs and they don't really contribute anything. I sold one city to an AI who likes to raze cities, and I've given him a couple more, but you have to puppet the city first and that raises your science and social policy costs.

You are way ahead of me, but I think you have to distinguish between CS puppets and conquest puppets.

If the city is not a CS, and you are not worried about the achievement, why not select raze on first conquest?

If the city is a CS -- is raze even an option?

Puppets will almost always offset the increased technology cost by generating additional science. I don't agree with characterization that they don’t contribute anything. AFIK the only net downside to puppets (Venice and otherwise) is happiness and increase cost of National Wonders.

Annexing raises SP costs -- but of course, Venice does not have that problem. Razing increases SP cost temporarily. Are you selling off CS or just conquest puppets?

 

[stormtrooper412]

Your early puppets will each spawn their own GMoV, so getting five puppets in the first six eras should not be too hard.

You'd think that but no not really, I managed to hit Unis faster than that and because of that I spawned a Scientist instead

 

[zxcvbob]

I'm only selling off tiny useless conquered cities (3 or 4 pop city in a bad location with a couple of cheap buildings and no luxuries). I've been keeping all the CS's, whether purchased or captured. (I haven't DoW'd any city states this game, but if they declare war on me they are fair game)

The problem is what to do with larger conquered cities? I wish I could get one of the annex bugs to work

If the city is not a CS, and you are not worried about the achievement, why not select raze on first conquest?

That's why I said the achievement is a trap. It's not worth the point.

 

[budweiser]

That's why I said the achievement is a trap. It's not worth the point.

As an exercise in happiness management, I thought it was worth the effort to puppet the whole deity map. Too bad my computer could barely handle it.

 

[beetle]

You'd think that but no not really, I managed to hit Unis faster than that and because of that I spawned a Scientist instead

Are you talking about how you play Venice normally or this map in particular? What do you do with your GMoV from Optics? My usual Venice play is Tradition and getting 3x CS puppets ASAP. The first two are by Medieval, so before I have unlocked Education. Since you cannot control how the puppet governor works specialists, puppets always seem to spawn GMe before GS. But with the GBR in this game, things might go very differently! At T100 I have only spawned one GP so far, and it was a GMoV from the cap. But it looks to me like my first two CS puppets will each generate me a GMoV.

That's why I said the achievement is a trap. It's not worth the point.

If you sell the city before it is done being razed, then you have not spoiled the achievement.

There are five points on the line for puppeting the whole map, but that requires DOWing your CS allies. I think that part is a trap!

 

[stormtrooper412]

This map. I do believe I got 2 scientists before the 2nd GMoV, but I can't remember now since it's been a while since I started this map and I can never seem to get around to completing it

 

[Shark Diver]

You'd think that but no not really, I managed to hit Unis faster than that and because of that I spawned a Scientist instead

I had to micro-manage to avoid this. I stopped working the Uni for 3 turns to avoid the first GS delaying a MOV. Later on, I didn't care so much and just let them spawn as they wished, but having a couple of GM point producing Wonders helped and I did rush to banking and worked those slots much sooner than usual.