[BTS] The Complete Guide to Espionage

[NightOnEarth]

What a brilliant and exhaustive guide, Kaitzilla! (and a lot of work, too!)

I recently posted a question in another thread, which is still open. Perhaps you have some guidance.

Sometimes I can "see" foreign cities which share my state religion, even if I don't have enough espionage points for this. What makes this possible?

 

[AcaMetis]

That one was actually answered:

Having control of the shrine will give discounts towards the passive espionage effects.

(Didn't know that, BTW)

 

[NightOnEarth]

That one was actually answeredDidn't know that, BTW)

I'm sorry for the confusion! In my games I'm referring to, I didn't control a shrine. Therefore I assume that other effects are involved, too.

 

[Kaitzilla]

What a brilliant and exhaustive guide, Kaitzilla! (and a lot of work, too!)

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!

I recently posted a question in another thread, which is still open. Perhaps you have some guidance.

--- Sometimes I can "see" foreign cities which share my state religion, even if I don't have enough espionage points for this. What makes this possible?

Let me look.
A shrine (world wonder) should have no effect on passive espionage costs, but owning a holy city certainly can.

I mentioned it here:

In addition to the distance penalty modifier, City Visibility/Investigate City are also affected by __% Cost espionage point spending, counterespionage mission by AI spy, security bureau building, trade routes, state religion, and city culture ratio modifiers.
In comparison, Can See Demographics and Can See Research are only affected by __% Cost and Counterespionage mission by AI Spy modifiers.
For more information on cost modifiers, read Section 6) Mission Costs After Modifiers later in this guide.

And later here:

2) State Religion (-15% Bonus, -25% Bonus, or -40% Bonus)
If the player is running a state religion and the target AI city has the player's state religion, but the target AI is NOT running that state religion, then the player Spy will have a -15% bonus in the target AI city.
If the player also owns the Holy City of the player's state religion, but the target AI is NOT running that state religion, then the bonus is -40%.


If the player has a state religion and the target AI city also has the state religion, but the target AI IS running that state religion, then the player Spy will have no bonus.
If the player has a state religion plus the Holy City, and the target AI city has the state religion, but the target AI IS running that state religion, then the player Spy will have -25% bonus.

So owning a Holy City can be a huge plus for espionage!

If the player and AI are both running the same state religion, and the AI has the Holy City, there is no penalty to spy mission costs.

If that doesn't clear up your problem, post your game and I will look at it.
I'm sure I can figure out how you are "seeing" foreign cities.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Let me look.
A shrine (world wonder) should have no effect on passive espionage costs, but owning a holy city certainly can.

Wait, I was wrong!

Religion has no effect on passive espionage costs now that I look.

I'm not sure how that made it into the guide.
I'll recheck all passive espionage stuff tomorrow.

**Edit**
Upon further review, religion does affect "City Vision" and "Investigate City" passive espionage costs.

I'll do some final testing at a later date to see what mistakes I've been making lately.

 

[NightOnEarth]

If that doesn't clear up your problem, post your game and I will look at it.
I'm sure I can figure out how you are "seeing" foreign cities.

I have searched my previous games for an example, unfortunately without success. My hope now is that I will find such a game on my old computer in which I can "see" cities of an opponent which have the same religion as my state religion. I'll get in touch when I find what I am looking for.

 

[Hafenguy]

Wow what a great guide. Thanks for All the efforts. Good to See that this game is still ne played by a lot of people.

Actually i have a question about my current game . Unfortunately i couldnt find a answer in this guide:

In my current game i spend about 2400 Espionage points in my neighbour the mongols. Points needed for looking into the mongolish cities: 2100
Then he declared war.
After 4 rounds of War the points needed for City infiltrating remains by 2100.
And then in round the needed points increased to 3900.

The cost for spy missions didnt increase.

How is that possible? Was that a Counterespionage mission from a mongolish spy?

I let my spy Do a Counterespionage mission in the mongolish empire. After that I need 3600 points for infiltrating cities.

What did the mongols Do and can i Do anything against it?

 

[Kaitzilla]

Wow what a great guide. Thanks for All the efforts. Good to See that this game is still ne played by a lot of people.

Actually i have a question about my current game . Unfortunately i couldnt find a answer in this guide:

In my current game i spend about 2400 Espionage points in my neighbour the mongols. Points needed for looking into the mongolish cities: 2100
Then he declared war.
After 4 rounds of War the points needed for City infiltrating remains by 2100.
And then in round the needed points increased to 3900.

The cost for spy missions didnt increase.

How is that possible? Was that a Counterespionage mission from a mongolish spy?

I let my spy Do a Counterespionage mission in the mongolish empire. After that I need 3600 points for infiltrating cities.

What did the mongols Do and can i Do anything against it?

So you needed about 2100 to click on a Mongol city to "Investigate City".

And then it became 3900?

Normally I would say the AI performing a counter-espionage mission against you to double the cost is almost impossible since I've never seen the AI do it before.

I suspect the AI ran its espionage slider and put 900 against you to take away your city vision.
But you are saying the cost didn't change so they added no more points against you?
A paradox.

One of the modifiers must have changed then.
1) Distance penalty modifier - Can never change
2) __% Cost espionage point spending - You said this number did not change, which means you both did not put more espionage points on each other, or you both did and somehow managed to maintain a constant spending ratio.
3) Security bureau building - this is very possible. It should have raised the cost from 2100 to 3150, not 3900 though
4) Trade routes - During war this modifier is impossible to change since it is 0
5) State religion - As noted by NightonEarth, this does not actually affect passive espionage costs (I need to fix this in the guide still) Wait, it might be possible.
6) City culture ratio modifiers - Unless you had a lot of culture in AI cities and they maxed the culture slider, is should not be this.
7) Counterespionage mission by the AI against you - This would boost the cost from 2100 to 4200, but then you would see this message in your game log:

Spoiler :

Hmmm, do you have the before and after saves by any chance?
It is possible to include them in these forums using the "Upload a file" button next to "Post Reply"

Did you form a Permanent Alliance with an AI?
That would also double your espionage costs I think.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Wait, I was wrong!

Religion has no effect on passive espionage costs now that I look.

I'm not sure how that made it into the guide.
I'll recheck all passive espionage stuff tomorrow.

And now that I am checking, religion does affect "Investigate City" and "City Visibility" passive espionage missions.

I must have let the AI run the religion by accident, or not run the religion myself with a dud test.
The bonus only works if the player runs the religion and the AI does not, but the religion is present in their city.

If you are running a religion with the holy city and your religion is present in every AI city giving a 40% passive espionage bonus because they are not running the religion as their state religion, then if they adopt your religion you lose that huge bonus instantly.
Costs to inspect their cities would grow from 2100 to 2100/0.6 = 3500

Hmm, still not quite right.

 

[krikav]

@Hafenguy Can you perhaps load the autosaves from the different turns, and hoover over some espionage mission so see what modifiers are present?
Screenshots of that would be helpful.

 

[Hafenguy]

I will post the savegame. Unfortunately I dont have a savegame from the time investigate city cost 2100. But I have one with cost 4000 and it will increase to about 6000 when you just click a few rounds.

It is from the mod realism invictus so I hope you guys can open it.
The developer of this mod told me that he didnt change anything in the spy system.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I will post the savegame. Unfortunately I dont have a savegame from the time investigate city cost 2100. But I have one with cost 4000 and it will increase to about 6000 when you just click a few rounds.

It is from the mod realism invictus so I hope you guys can open it.
The developer of this mod told me that he didnt change anything in the spy system.

Thanks for the save file.

I'm having a bit of trouble opening it.

Do you know which version of Realism Invictus you are running?
I have 3.5
http://www.realism-invictus.com/

In the Advanced -> About this Build section, I have save version 303.
And when loading your save file, it expects version 302 or earlier.

Spoiler :

 

[Hafenguy]

Ahh yes im sorry it is Version 3.55

 

[Kaitzilla]

Ok, I have looked at the save.

The Mongols are at war with you.
They appear to be running their espionage slider at their maximum of 20% (AI can't go higher than this) and putting all the points against you.

Earlier when you were viewing their cities with ease, they put their espionage points against another AI and thus your costs stayed the same.
That changed when they put their espionage spending towards you after the war started.

Here are turns 368 and 369.

Spoiler :

T368


T369

Can See Demographics went from 667 to 700 in the capital of Khuree.

Passive Mission Costs are governed by the formula:

Base Factor * (100+How much they have against you) * Modifiers

Base Factors for Passive Missions
Demographics=0.3
City Visibility=1.2
Investigate=2
See Research=0.75

In comparison, Can See Demographics and Can See Research are only affected by __% Cost and Counterespionage mission by AI Spy modifiers.

On Turn 368, the Mongols had 0.3*(100+ ??? espionage) * modifiers (this would be 99% from _% Cost assuming no AI counterespionage mission is in effect) = 667 against you.
0.3*(100 + x) * 0.99 = 667
(100 + x) = 2245
x = 2145

So the Mongols had around 2145 built up against you on Turn 368.

On Turn 369 the Mongols had 0.3*(100+ ??? espionage) * modifiers (this would be 99% from _% Cost assuming no AI counterespionage mission is in effect) = 700 against you.
0.3*(100 + x) * 0.99 = 700
(100 + x) = 2356
x = 2256

And then the Mongols had around 2256 built up against you on Turn 369.

This does not appear correct.
I don't see how 6 medium cities can generate 111 per turn against you with only 20% slider.

..

Oh!
The Mongols have run a counterespionage mission against you (+100% costs until it runs out)

Spoiler :

The mod must have fixed it so the AI is capable of it now.

That explains the massive jump in costs from 2100 to 3900 for you.
They did a counterespionage mission and the costs doubled for you.
They also spent some points on the mission, so it became 3900 and not 4200.

0.3*(100 + x) * 0.99 * 2 = 667
(100 + x) = 1122
x = 1022

0.3*(100 + x) * 0.99 * 2 = 700
(100 + x) = 1178
x = 1078

1078-1022 = 56 per turn that the Mongols are spending on you.

The Mongols also appear to have settled their Great Spy that was born giving a big + per turn increase.

Spoiler :

I hope that answers your question.

The AI can't really gain more than 56 per turn against you due to the slider not going above 20%.

I'd say wait for the counterespionage mission to run out in 10 turns? (not sure about the length in the mod) and the costs should go back to normal.
It is 10 turns for normal speed, 15 turns for epic speed, and 30 turns for marathon speed on unmodded civ 4.

Inspect City has a built-in cost modifier of double, so you must spend 112 per turn on the Mongols to look into their cities once you spend enough to catch up.

The counter espionage mission against you has doubled the cost again.
Once you regain the ability to Inspect City, the cost is 56 * 4 = 224 per turn.


I would honestly give up trying to spend enough to inspect the Mongol cities.

I would also consider retreating your spies since they are in great danger of dying each turn due to counter espionage and closed borders.

If they are performing strategically important missions or giving important vision, keep them in place and hope they don't die.

 

[Hafenguy]

Woow thank you very much. Im really impressed about all the efforts you are spending.

Fantastic!

I were not aware of the AI reacting in Such way.

May i copy your Post and Post it in the realism invictus section?

 

[Kaitzilla]

Woow thank you very much. Im really impressed about all the efforts you are spending.

Fantastic!

I were not aware of the AI reacting in Such way.

May i copy your Post and Post it in the realism invictus section?

Sure thing.

 

[Hafenguy]

To be quite honest, we've been around for such a long time that I can't say for sure - but I guess we did at some point, he illustrates it quite convincingly.

This is what Walter from realism invictus wrote
So yes maybe the AI does counter Espionage with this mod.

 

[Fine_Distinction]

Outstanding guide, Kaitzilla, thank you so much!

It is so helpful to have such a comprehensive, state-of-the art info, all in one place, and organized so well! I hope you will finish it. I am looking forward especially to guide on espionage victory.

 

[NothingBesideRemains]

So here's something interesting: if an AI forms a new colony, one of the thibgs that gets cloned over to the new AI... is your EP against the original AI.

If you infiltrate an AI city, then force them to make a colony (I am no expert and was actually testing this process when I discocered the EP cloning), you now have a buttload of EP against 2 AIs.

2 uses I can see:

Tech stealing (especially in a NTT game), as the new AI gets the techs of the old one; and

Espionage culture victory (2 Gspys multiplied by 3 AIs gets you close to 3 legendary cities by math, if the bonuses are good).

I'm not really one for HoF games, so if the above is useful to you, go with God.

 

[Fine_Distinction]

So here's something interesting: if an AI forms a new colony, one of the thibgs that gets cloned over to the new AI... is your EP against the original AI.

If you infiltrate an AI city, then force them to make a colony (I am no expert and was actually testing this process when I discocered the EP cloning), you now have a buttload of EP against 2 AIs.

2 uses I can see:

Tech stealing (especially in a NTT game), as the new AI gets the techs of the old one; and

Espionage culture victory (2 Gspys multiplied by 3 AIs gets you close to 3 legendary cities by math, if the bonuses are good).

I'm not really one for HoF games, so if the above is useful to you, go with God.

It is a potentially very useful information. I has been already discovered and used by @WastinTime in a SGOTM iirc