The Emperor Masters' Challenge 2 (on Warlords)

[Jet]

Madrid will NEVER be your Strongest Priest pump. It only has one Bonus food

Ooh, good point - it would take a lot of farms for Madrid to support enough priests to keep up with Memphis. If we kept running 4 priests in Memphis for the 600 GPP GP, then it would be worthwhile to run 3 priests in Madrid for the 700 GPP GP. But we shouldn't do that. We should run maximum priests in Memphis for the 600, 700, and 800 GPs because that's the fastest way. By maximum I mean work the 2 food resources and run the maximum number of priests so that there's still a food surplus of 2, until it reaches size 9 for the maximum of 7 priests. Meanwhile it will be impossible for Madrid to catch up, so run zero priests there.

With maximum priests in Memphis I think it will take
18 turns for the 600 GPP GP
34 turns for the 700 GPP GP
37 turns for the 800 GPP GP
That's assuming we don't get Literature and build the National Epic in Memphis during that time.

To me, this suggests that it's better to use the 600 and 700 GPs on DP, and wait until the 800 GP to build the Mahabodhi. Or skip it and start on scientists, because they'll take forever unless we switch to Caste System. Realistically we might have to switch to Caste System either way, at least until we get an Academy for our Oxford city (Barcelona, I assume.) But hey, we're Spiritual.

(calculations)

size 7 reqs 32 food ... From 11 food to 32 food: 11 turns
size 8 reqs 34 food ... From 16 food to 34 food: 9 turns
size 9 reqs 36 food ... From 17 food to 36 food: 10 turns

600 GP:
Now: 246 GPP to go.
11 turns * 13 GPP/turn = 143 GPP. 103 GPP to go.
103 GPP / 16 GPP/turn = 7 turns.
11 turns + 7 turns = 18 turns.

700 GP:
2 turns to size 8. 2 turns * 16 GPP/turn = 32 GPP.
10 turns to size 9. 10 turns * 19 GPP/turn = 190 GPP.
700 GPP - 32 GPP - 190 GPP = 478 GPP. 478 GPP / 22 GPP/turn = 22 turns.
2 turns + 10 turns + 22 turns = 34 turns.

800 GP:
800 GPP / 22 GPP/turn = 37 turns.

 

[csarmi]

That's 600-750-900 ...

 

[Jet]

That must be because it's Epic. Well, dang.

 

[voek]

OK, I'd say the Construction->Paper->Currency ->DR path sounds good. Get an army and smash the Incans. before they get to advanced

I second this. We need construction and cats ASAP and declare war. You might even start the war before you have cats anyway, just to capture a few workers and destroy some invading troops. You won't have the element of suprise, but I don't think it's needed. How many research turns the research building in the capital saves? If it's just 1 or so, I would build units instead. There is still a big power gap. Thinking of your attacking plan (city NW of Madrid) sounds ok, but you need to watch your rear at Mephis and even Thebes.

With a little luck you might extort currency from Huayna if the war is going well. He has contruction and although you haven't seen a cat, you still need some anti-cats units. Since HA are not available, build some cheep warchariots instead. 20% str. bonus will give them a edge over cats.

You need missionairs for Mephis and Thebes ASAP. Whip them if needed.

 

[much2much]

Why is there only asked the question "Which city is the best great person producer?"

What about "Is it worth running two cities for great people generation?"

In this situation seeing as there is an impending war and other things going on I am not saying it is a better option but it seems a lot of people are getting overexcited with their high school mathematics about figuring out which city can produce more GPP/turn. If one city is producing GPP it doesn't stop another. And if a city pops out a GP the other cities don't reset to zero.

With the goals of using prophets to get religious techs and found shrines, isn't considering two great person producing cities worthwhile?

 

[cabert]

Why is there only asked the question "Which city is the best great person producer?"

What about "Is it worth running two cities for great people generation?"

In this situation seeing as there is an impending war and other things going on I am not saying it is a better option but it seems a lot of people are getting overexcited with their high school mathematics about figuring out which city can produce more GPP/turn. If one city is producing GPP it doesn't stop another. And if a city pops out a GP the other cities don't reset to zero.

With the goals of using prophets to get religious techs and found shrines, isn't considering two great person producing cities worthwhile?

what i usually run is a major GPFarm, and minors GP producers
At some point, one minor producer can have a good GP stock.
At this point i push the gp farm's growth (= less specialists, more food + building faster...) and the push the minor producer's GPP output (starving with more specialists).
Global output of GP is not much better than pure GP farm, but the GP farm gets more profitable and the otherwise lost GPPs are used up a bit.

In this game, madrid could be a minor producer, but at the cost of less worked cottages
That's why it's better to stick with the main GP farm alone.

 

[much2much]

what i usually run is a major GPFarm, and minors GP producers
At some point, one minor producer can have a good GP stock.
At this point i push the gp farm's growth (= less specialists, more food + building faster...) and the push the minor producer's GPP output (starving with more specialists).
Global output of GP is not much better than pure GP farm, but the GP farm gets more profitable and the otherwise lost GPPs are used up a bit.

In this game, madrid could be a minor producer, but at the cost of less worked cottages
That's why it's better to stick with the main GP farm alone.

That intervention might be your instinct but it doesn't change whether or not you will get a great person out of it. Unless you have a large disparity in points production, where the higher and higher GPP targets will never be reached by the secondary producer, in which case the GPP points are a total waste.

For example you are running 7 priests in one city with National Epic and only have two priests in another city they might never produce a GP unless you slow down the other city, which is not what I am suggesting, as you are using two food each specialist either way for half the GP points (assuming National Epic in the primary).

The only advantage about having one great person farm I can see is the bonus from National Epic, so your GPP are ultimately most efficient. But you will get more great people in any given game if you grow them in other cities too.

 

[cabert]

That intervention might be your instinct but it doesn't change whether or not you will get a great person out of it. Unless you have a large disparity in points production, where the higher and higher GPP targets will never be reached by the secondary producer, in which case the GPP points are a total waste.

when you have a gp farm, you build national epic there. You sure don't build national epic in a lesser GP source (wasteful!).
Meaning that your GP farm is always (unless philo/ running pacifism) at least double speed from any other. In almost every situation, the others don't catch up on the GP farm.

For example you are running 7 priests in one city with National Epic and only have two priests in another city they might never produce a GP unless you slow down the other city, which is not what I am suggesting

,

but it's what I am suggesting (just not in this game)

as you are using two food each specialist either way for half the GP points (assuming National Epic in the primary).

well, specialists produce other things, you know
like gold, beakers, culture...
i don't think getting 6 beakers for a specialist is a waste, even if he only produces 3 GPP and not the 6 you get in the GP farm.
+ running specialists in the GP farm requires pop+food! If you run specialists to the max, you often grow very slowly (and in some situations not at all). Putting the GP farm on fast growth + production is a way to make sure it has all the building and pop it needs in the next GP run...

The only advantage about having one great person farm I can see is the bonus from National Epic, so your GPP are ultimately most efficient. But you will get more great people in any given game if you grow them in other cities too.

not if you don't work for it (like being philo or running pacifism).

 

[voek]

The National Epic is the reason why only one GP farm is optimal. You want to maximaze the 'extra' GP points. It's is prooved when a GP farm is used, the other city's almost won't produce any GP's. The only reason to use GP in other city's for GP generation is to produce a specific GP you wouldn't get in your main farm. For example the creation of a great engineer. Except for this case you should have one GP farm to maximize your GP output. You prob. will run some GP's in other city's for other reasons (science, extra hammers etc), e.g. specialist economy. Considering GP genereation only the points for the GP farm count as the other ones will be almost worthless.

 

[pigswill]

It also depends on how much importance you attach to GP contamination. National Epic means you get the same number of GPs from one city as you would otherwise from two cities (and thus saves a bunch on specialists) but you always run the risk of popping a GA. NE is still optimal unless you're in a GP based tech-race.

 

[Jet]

With the goals of using prophets to get religious techs and found shrines, isn't considering two great person producing cities worthwhile?

Yes, assuming you like micromanagement, it is worth considering.

Assuming that with max priests Memphis can pop (roughly corrected versions of my previous numbers)
GP 600 in 18 turns
GP 750 37 turns later
GP 900 42 turns later

So actually, if Madrid starts running 4 priests now, it could pop GP 900 75 turns from now, whereas Madrid would pop it 97 turns from now. So I take it back; prophet farming in both Memphis and Madrid will in fact be faster.

This conclusion and my previous one would have been hard for me to guess without the calculations. In a play-along game such calculations are fun, but in most games I prefer not to do them.

Anyway, one could also start farming scientists in another city such as Barcelona, for the next great person after the 3rd prophet. Barcelona might be the best spot for the National Epic anyway, because it has a lot of food and is probably the best spot for Oxford. (And for the Palace. Can you build Oxford/NE/Palace in the same non-original-capital-city?)

 

[cabert]

well, how important is getting the prophet faster, compared to working good tiles in madrid? 4 priests in madrid is almost impossible

 

[Jet]

I'm thinking that working good tiles in Madrid is probably more important. I'd probably farm 2 prophets for Divine Right, then a scientist. +50% beakers in a good city should yield more "commerce" than the wealth from the Mahabodhi. And you can only build Wall Street in one city.

 

[cabert]

I'm thinking that working good tiles in Madrid is probably more important. I'd probably farm 2 prophets for Divine Right, then a scientist. +50% beakers in a good city should yield more "commerce" than the wealth from the Mahabodhi. And you can only build Wall Street in one city.

that was not exactly what i was saying
Let me rephrase it :
since HR allows Madrid to grow to size 12 (edit : 12 happiness and 7 unhappiness at size 6, make me think it's size 12 all right) that allows 11 cottages, worked for years
I think you get more from 11 cottages worked for 94 turns than you get from 4 priests + one great prophet = you could just research half of DR rather than burning 2 great prophets on it.

 

[Jet]

We agree regarding what to do with Madrid. My current thinking is that it is best to farm only two more great prophets. The best way to do that is with priests only in Memphis.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well Only two More Prophets are Really useful, (1 for 1/2 of DR, and get the Buddhist Shrine) However, once you get National Epic, I'd put it in Memphis and just keep it pumping out Prophets (allthough making sure it continues to grow in pop whenever it can). There are still decent techs they can get you
(Music, Philosophy, Printing Press, [Drama] Education, Liberalism) [you can research Drama to get it out of the Way]

Not to mention Settling them (15 Gold from a Wall Street Prophet is Hard to match with an Academy) [Wall Street, and settled Prophets, should probably go in Madrid, as there are more Buddhist Cities than Confucian ones]


Once you have National Epic there, you can get ~30 per turn which means past the basic 2
the 900 is in 30 turns
the 1050 is in 35 (65 total)
the 1200 in 40 turns (105 total)
[and use one for a Golden age if a stray Artist pops up]
(An Islamic Shrine would take much more investment than a lightbulbed tech, but it would be better than a Settling)

 

[carl corey]

Keep in mind that a GS gives more than a GP toward researching a tech. I think it was a 3-to-2 ratio between a GS and any other kind of Great Person. So if you want Great Persons to lightbulb techs, go the GS way.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

True, but He can only run 2 Scientists w/o caste system, so most of them are going to be Priests anyways. (so actually After the Buddhist Shrine Prophet arrives, it might be worthwhile running Scientists AND Priests, for a chance at lightbulbing Education/Printing Press)

In any case with the Spiral Minaret Drive I'm thinking of a High Cottage system, with US, because once the religions are well spread, and the buildings are up thats ~2-4 Shrine Gold (as Banks come on) and 4 Minaret Gold per city, enough to probably pay for all expenses once Courthouses are up, which means excess Gold at 100% can get used for Production.

 

[aelf]

u built a courthouse in ur capital? why?!?!?

With a capital that was high in production and had nothing very useful to build, I thought it might be worth the while to open up the possibility of building the FP earlier. Besides, we might be moving the capital to Barcelona.

So actually, if Madrid starts running 4 priests now, it could pop GP 900 75 turns from now, whereas Madrid would pop it 97 turns from now. So I take it back; prophet farming in both Memphis and Madrid will in fact be faster.

I had similar thoughts, although I wasn't certain of the exact numbers. Is it really worth having Memphis churn out the next two prophets alone, the second one out of a restarted GPP bar? Especially considering the next GP isn't going to be born in Memphis very soon and we aren't going to get the NE yet. I need more confirmation here to proceed.

Hmm... Yes, I forgot about building Buddhist Missionaries for Thebes and Memphis I think a few of the libraries I started are not really necessary. Missionaries and, in Huamanga, more troops were probably a better choice. Ah, well.

 

[aelf]

Keep in mind that a GS gives more than a GP toward researching a tech. I think it was a 3-to-2 ratio between a GS and any other kind of Great Person. So if you want Great Persons to lightbulb techs, go the GS way.

Anything beyond DR and prophets are probably a little too early to discuss at the moment. We are focusing on prophets right now to get to DR and build the shrines. Once those are achieved, I'm fine with abandoning this particular focus altogether.