The Emperor Masters' Challenge 3 (on Warlords)
- Thread starter aelf
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HE should really be built in a coastal city for maximum longterm benefit. Once you have secured the continent a decent navy will meet most of your military needs. Unless, of course, you go for domination.
Going for chemistry obsoletes ToA, so you want to think about that one. Can you keep Stalin occupied by starting a war on the other continent through bribery? Then your tech path could head towards rifling or MT to hang onto ToA a little longer. In this case I would favour the rifling path because you get replaceable parts to help with production. A coastal city with a river (= watermills) can then build HE. Once HE comes online chemistry will be attractive with opportunites for fast frigate production.
Another possibility: build some caravels and send them over to the other continent (esp Russia). Get an idea where the AI transports and SoDs are. Post the caravels outside these coastal cities and check every turn to see if the fleets are coming your way. Meanwhile, tech one turn away from chemistry. If a SoD comes your way you will be have 5 turns (or more) to prepare. Research chemistry, generate some cash (trade or $ slider), upgrade some maces/pikes to granadiers and caravels to frigates. You will know exactly how to prepare because your caravels will know what the invasion force is.
What really needs assessing is whether the price you pay for emergency upgrades (IF any are needed) and missed trading opportunities chemistry is worth bearing for the sake of hanging onto ToA. My gut feeling is 'perhaps yes' if you want to win by space race and 'no' if you want to win by domination. ToA is worth 18 raw commerce per turn (+1 free priest) in Washington atm which has the bureacracy bonus followed by multipliers from academy, etc.
EDIT: ToA is worth less than 18 commerce per turn because I forgot to take trade multiplier from the harbour into account.
Going for chemistry obsoletes ToA, so you want to think about that one. Can you keep Stalin occupied by starting a war on the other continent through bribery? Then your tech path could head towards rifling or MT to hang onto ToA a little longer. In this case I would favour the rifling path because you get replaceable parts to help with production. A coastal city with a river (= watermills) can then build HE. Once HE comes online chemistry will be attractive with opportunites for fast frigate production.
Another possibility: build some caravels and send them over to the other continent (esp Russia). Get an idea where the AI transports and SoDs are. Post the caravels outside these coastal cities and check every turn to see if the fleets are coming your way. Meanwhile, tech one turn away from chemistry. If a SoD comes your way you will be have 5 turns (or more) to prepare. Research chemistry, generate some cash (trade or $ slider), upgrade some maces/pikes to granadiers and caravels to frigates. You will know exactly how to prepare because your caravels will know what the invasion force is.
What really needs assessing is whether the price you pay for emergency upgrades (IF any are needed) and missed trading opportunities chemistry is worth bearing for the sake of hanging onto ToA. My gut feeling is 'perhaps yes' if you want to win by space race and 'no' if you want to win by domination. ToA is worth 18 raw commerce per turn (+1 free priest) in Washington atm which has the bureacracy bonus followed by multipliers from academy, etc.
EDIT: ToA is worth less than 18 commerce per turn because I forgot to take trade multiplier from the harbour into account.
Go for Chemistry, kill off Saladin. Keep your eyes on the prize.
Also, Chem. is a much wanted tech by the AI (which they usually don't concentrate on) so we'll be able to trade it to people not named Shaka or Stalin.
edit: XP modifiers are more important in coastal cities than the HE for this game, as drydocks are very effective at increasing production. (We need more land units than navy, so an HE in NY is a better idea methinks.)
Also, Chem. is a much wanted tech by the AI (which they usually don't concentrate on) so we'll be able to trade it to people not named Shaka or Stalin.
edit: XP modifiers are more important in coastal cities than the HE for this game, as drydocks are very effective at increasing production. (We need more land units than navy, so an HE in NY is a better idea methinks.)
aelf
Ashen One
I like the idea of the HE in Brennus' capital, which is coastal. The main thing is it looks like it has high production. And 3-turn battleships would certainly be a good thing 
Now it seems the difficult choice is whether to get Chemistry now for trading and military purposes, or delay it for the sake of the ToA. If we choose to delay it, we can head for Rifling asap for military purposes. It's a tough decision to make.
With regards to finishing off Saladin, I think we can afford to delay that. As lilnev said, Brennus must be our focus. He's still an effective force on our continent while Saladin is a lame duck.
Anyway, I think trading resources for gpt with Shaka will make either Gandhi or Mehmed unhappy. I can't check right now.
Now it seems the difficult choice is whether to get Chemistry now for trading and military purposes, or delay it for the sake of the ToA. If we choose to delay it, we can head for Rifling asap for military purposes. It's a tough decision to make.
With regards to finishing off Saladin, I think we can afford to delay that. As lilnev said, Brennus must be our focus. He's still an effective force on our continent while Saladin is a lame duck.
Anyway, I think trading resources for gpt with Shaka will make either Gandhi or Mehmed unhappy. I can't check right now.
voek said:
seems a little off the course of a domination run (chemistry is so much more important now!)
Maybe lightbulbing isn't the best option in this case.
One detail : a settled GS gives a hammer. I know it isn't a lot but when your best cities only have less than 20, one hammer means a lot
.I am not saying anything about domination course....
Anyway you still can research chemistry first, but then use the GS (later) for Sc. Method.
I am not realy in favor of settling. Kinda rule of thumb for me not to settle past the early renaissance.
Anyway you still can research chemistry first, but then use the GS (later) for Sc. Method.
I am not realy in favor of settling. Kinda rule of thumb for me not to settle past the early renaissance.
I hear you on the space race preference (i agree in fact). But our enlightened dictator said "domination".voek said:I am not saying anything about domination course....
Anyway you still can research chemistry first, but then use the GS (later) for Sc. Method.
I am not realy in favor of settling. Kinda rule of thumb for me not to settle past the early renaissance.
I rarely settle, even earlier, but here, one hammer = +6% production in a city!
6 beakers are welcome too, 9 with representation.
The rule of thumb is good, but ice age means lower global output. This could mean that 9 beakers+bonus makes more difference than usual.
I know, but decisions can chance, so I can opt subtile hints... 
Btw even for a offensive strat. going sc method route for biology and fysics isn't a no go area imo. Biology for example I consider for most vicotry types considarable important, since it's a huge boost for your empire. The bigger you are, the greater the benefit.
Well I am open see new possibility's so I am hoping a devoted player is gonna make some calculations of the relevant benefits. The most anyoing thing from work is you don't have access to Civ.
Btw even for a offensive strat. going sc method route for biology and fysics isn't a no go area imo. Biology for example I consider for most vicotry types considarable important, since it's a huge boost for your empire. The bigger you are, the greater the benefit.
Well I am open see new possibility's so I am hoping a devoted player is gonna make some calculations of the relevant benefits. The most anyoing thing from work is you don't have access to Civ.
aelf
Ashen One
Of course, winning the Physics race would be great. A last easy GS after the GL is obsolete.
I'm still thinking whether to research Chemistry next. I'll most likely make the decision tomorrow while playing the next round itself. Any more input on this?
Domination or space race, indeed it can go either way. I'm always too lazy to go for domination myself. But if the opportunity arises in this game, I'll seize it
I'm still thinking whether to research Chemistry next. I'll most likely make the decision tomorrow while playing the next round itself. Any more input on this?
Domination or space race, indeed it can go either way. I'm always too lazy to go for domination myself. But if the opportunity arises in this game, I'll seize it
aelf
Ashen One
Hey, I crossed the 1000 posts mark without even knowing it! 
aelf said:Hey, I crossed the 1000 posts mark without even knowing it!
Aelf!It goes fast, when you answer 10s of threads in a row...
I was over 2000 posts, without a single article... I really had to correct this (thus happiness and health...).
I vote against Chemistry and for Rifling as the direction research should take from here. The continent is relatively weak on food and drafting will generate a powerful army much more efficiently than even Slavery. This is a near perfect situation to exploit drafting, and riflemen are the most cost effective draftee. A grenadier will cost 100 hammers = 3+ pop from Slavery, whereas a riflemen costs just 1 pop with an extra 2 unhappiness / draft.
Many cities will be able to draft 2 riflemen immediately and then another one 10 turns later. That should enable 20 to 30 rifles within 20 turns. With Theocracy drafted riflemen will be 2 exp, and the 5 exp for catapults (barrage + accuracy) and trebuchets (CR2). Anything Brennus or Saladin throws at us can easily be dealt with. Upgrade the CR3 maceman and axemen to riflemen, and that will cost maybe 1000 gold that can be raised by building wealth and lowering the research slider for a few turns.
Drafting riflemen is the surest way to close the power gap aelf has with Stalin and Shaka. This map is weak on food and commerce so the Chemisty + Slavery route is much slower than drafting riflemen. If we stay weaker than them for too long they will get adventurous and might intefer on our continent, rather than us interferring on theirs
So I recommend lightbulbiing the GS for 1764 beakers towards PP. Adopt Representation and either Free Religion or OR. Spread Christianity more (we still only have 4 cities with it) and develop the three newly captured cities. Build up infrastructure that will support a drafting strategy in maybe 12 turns, i.e. barracks and temples, theatres for happiness. Sell resources to any of the other civs to raise gold and improve relations, build wealth in some cities to raise gold and the research slider temporarily. When we get Rifling immediately adopt Nationhood and Theocracy and draft rifles and whip / build catrapults and trebuchets and go to war with Brennus and/ or Saladin.
Many cities will be able to draft 2 riflemen immediately and then another one 10 turns later. That should enable 20 to 30 rifles within 20 turns. With Theocracy drafted riflemen will be 2 exp, and the 5 exp for catapults (barrage + accuracy) and trebuchets (CR2). Anything Brennus or Saladin throws at us can easily be dealt with. Upgrade the CR3 maceman and axemen to riflemen, and that will cost maybe 1000 gold that can be raised by building wealth and lowering the research slider for a few turns.
Drafting riflemen is the surest way to close the power gap aelf has with Stalin and Shaka. This map is weak on food and commerce so the Chemisty + Slavery route is much slower than drafting riflemen. If we stay weaker than them for too long they will get adventurous and might intefer on our continent, rather than us interferring on theirs
So I recommend lightbulbiing the GS for 1764 beakers towards PP. Adopt Representation and either Free Religion or OR. Spread Christianity more (we still only have 4 cities with it) and develop the three newly captured cities. Build up infrastructure that will support a drafting strategy in maybe 12 turns, i.e. barracks and temples, theatres for happiness. Sell resources to any of the other civs to raise gold and improve relations, build wealth in some cities to raise gold and the research slider temporarily. When we get Rifling immediately adopt Nationhood and Theocracy and draft rifles and whip / build catrapults and trebuchets and go to war with Brennus and/ or Saladin.
aelf
Ashen One
Hmm... I've already played the round. I must say UncleJJ's suggestions provide quite a contrast to what happened. It's hard to say which way is better, though.
I'll post the update tomorrow night.
I'll post the update tomorrow night.
I took the liberty of playing on from the last save and I'm fairly pleased with the rifles plus drafting strategy . Currently at 1675 and closing in on Brennus's capital and Saladin's captial is about to fall. He has some tough defenders that means the defence needs to be zeroed before draft rifles can beat his longbows... I have 3 army groups operating and 20 rifles, with 6 catapults and 6 trebuchets (all CR2 and CR3). A very interesting situation indeed.
. Currently at 1675 and closing in on Brennus's capital and Saladin's captial is about to fall. He has some tough defenders that means the defence needs to be zeroed before draft rifles can beat his longbows... I have 3 army groups operating and 20 rifles, with 6 catapults and 6 trebuchets (all CR2 and CR3). A very interesting situation indeed.
aelf
Ashen One
UncleJJ said:I took the liberty of playing on from the last save and I'm fairly pleased with the rifles plus drafting strategy
Hmmm... How's the tech situation for you up to 1665? Care to post a screenshot of the continent (with city details on)? It would be good for comparison.
Brennus seems to be a very stubborn fighter, by the way.
carl corey
Deity
Don't know about that, in a Monarch game of mine Brennus agreed to capitulate with a lot of cities left. He even recaptured one of the less important cities before that but had no problems capitulating.
aelf
Ashen One
carl corey said:
Hmm... Maybe it has something to do with losing 2 holy cities and his capital. Definitely the first time I've seen an AI throw around 3 pikes and 2 longbows at his former city.
My reasoning for the HE was thinking more short term: NY (in 6 turns) would have 24 hammers, pumping out knights every 3-4 turns, grenadiers every 4 turns, and trebs every 2-3 turns. (I'm playing 2.08 but they're worth less on 1.0, right?) NY also has more forest tiles to work and once we get RParts it'll have even more hammers.
A navy is something we won't need for a while. However: a drydocks, factory, and forge (+100% or 125% with power) would give us comparably decent build rates in the two good navy building sites on the continent, namely Bibracte and a rebuilt Georgovia (if built on the wine). This allows us to have more good cities building land units faster, now, (which we will need more of anyway) than saving it for later when we can still pump out battleships (if we even get that far!) at around 4 turns a piece w/out the HE. Right now we need land units, and lots of them.
As for chemistry, rifling is over 20 turns away, whereas chemistry is around 6-8 turns away. (I don't know how you're going going to balance the slider so I'm speculating.) I still find Uncle JJ's advice interesting, mainly because I never run Nationalism and it sounds like I need to try it sometime. (Old habits die hard)
Of course, it sounds like you played the round already so maybe this advice is totally worthless....
As for "foreign policy" matters, Saladin's pretty much dead weight and killing him shouldn't take more than the 10 turn peace treaty we have going. He's cautious with Shaka and Stalin, (but friendly with brennus) so hopefully no defensive pacts will come out of those relationships, so maybe he's a non issue. His relations with Brennus means we'd have to either kill him now or wait until brennus is almost gone, since he would most likely vassal with brennus.
A navy is something we won't need for a while. However: a drydocks, factory, and forge (+100% or 125% with power) would give us comparably decent build rates in the two good navy building sites on the continent, namely Bibracte and a rebuilt Georgovia (if built on the wine). This allows us to have more good cities building land units faster, now, (which we will need more of anyway) than saving it for later when we can still pump out battleships (if we even get that far!) at around 4 turns a piece w/out the HE. Right now we need land units, and lots of them.
As for chemistry, rifling is over 20 turns away, whereas chemistry is around 6-8 turns away. (I don't know how you're going going to balance the slider so I'm speculating.) I still find Uncle JJ's advice interesting, mainly because I never run Nationalism and it sounds like I need to try it sometime. (Old habits die hard)
Of course, it sounds like you played the round already so maybe this advice is totally worthless....
As for "foreign policy" matters, Saladin's pretty much dead weight and killing him shouldn't take more than the 10 turn peace treaty we have going. He's cautious with Shaka and Stalin, (but friendly with brennus) so hopefully no defensive pacts will come out of those relationships, so maybe he's a non issue. His relations with Brennus means we'd have to either kill him now or wait until brennus is almost gone, since he would most likely vassal with brennus.
