The Greening of America (economist)

[Lambert Simnel]

Nobody is "twisting words." You said that Kyoto may look unfair to an America, but we produce more carbon per capita than China or India. You then went on to say that any global warming legislation needs to "upset people" if it is going to succeed. As far as I can tell, you're saying that the controversy caused by the treaty somehow makes it better. This implies that we should sign it because it upsets people - namely us.

I'm saying that the only treaty which didn't upset somone would have been a toothless treaty.

Nobody is going to enter into an unfair treaty for altruistic reasons. That's totally unrealistic. I don't think the US government would be unwilling to enter into a treaty if it had equal standards for America and the rest of the world. The fact of the matter is that there is very little chance of us signing a treaty that imposes stricter standards on ourselves than on our potential rivals.

I don't share your assumption that this is an unfair treaty, or that the reasons for ratifying are purely altruistic. I do think that the reasons for not signing it are narrow minded and purely parochial.

 

[Lambert Simnel]

Im speaking about the Washington DC area. How could I know what other areas of the country have on their tv's?

Winston Churchill once said, in response to why the European powers had to get the US on their side, basically, "When they get going, they really get going!" Sure, we're a slow brute, but when we wake up and decide to do something, something happens. Sometimes its good (Berlin Wall falling) sometimes its bad (Iraq II).

The car ads bit is of little real consequence. I guess I thought you might get around the country a bit, but no real matter - my most recent experiences of the US are limited to Missouri and a few hours in the Admirals' Lounge at Chicago O'Hare. At both those locations, the car adverts were not noticeably different from anything I'd seen in the US before, and had far fewer nods towards assuaging a green mindset in the prospective purchaser than corresponding UK and French sales pitches.

I agree that Europe needs the US to be on side on greenhouse gas emissions (after all, as we've already agreed, it's the worst polluter). Where I disagree is whether the Economist's article and the points mentioned there represent any significant move on the part of the US.

(PS I had thought it was the Germans who brought down the Berlin Wall. My bad)

 

[Narz]

We'll have to cut gasoline usage in years to come regardless and Bush knows it.

 

[JerichoHill]

The car ads bit is of little real consequence. I guess I thought you might get around the country a bit, but no real matter - my most recent experiences of the US are limited to Missouri and a few hours in the Admirals' Lounge at Chicago O'Hare. At both those locations, the car adverts were not noticeably different from anything I'd seen in the US before, and had far fewer nods towards assuaging a green mindset in the prospective purchaser than corresponding UK and French sales pitches.

I agree that Europe needs the US to be on side on greenhouse gas emissions (after all, as we've already agreed, it's the worst polluter). Where I disagree is whether the Economist's article and the points mentioned there represent any significant move on the part of the US.

(PS I had thought it was the Germans who brought down the Berlin Wall. My bad)

Your condescending attitude could use a little work.

1) I get out of the country quite a bit. Kind of busy suing entities right now though on behalf of the 1968 Civil Rights Act m'kay?

2) You seem to be fairly limited as well in your sample size. Pot. Kettle.

3) Well, Arnold sure seems to be moving with some vigor. Then again, could be purely political..I'll point this out with a quick blurb.

4) Pretty much all opinion polls show that voters are very interested in greening. Katrina really did change people's perceptions and woke alot of folks up. Not saying Katrina was a result of global warming, but its inferring, and it really shook the American psyche.

I'll have a conversation with you buddy, but not with that tude

 

[BasketCase]

Twenty years ago, I had already planted more trees than just about anybody else in here.

I'm way ahead of y'all.

 

[JerichoHill]

Yeah...uh. well, I do my own garden thing so we don't buy veggies from july-novemeber, basically.

never buy herbs all year round

 

[Lambert Simnel]

Your condescending attitude could use a little work.

1) I get out of the country quite a bit. Kind of busy suing entities right now though on behalf of the 1968 Civil Rights Act m'kay?

2) You seem to be fairly limited as well in your sample size. Pot. Kettle.

Err, I was responding to your comment, "Im speaking about the Washington DC area. How could I know what other areas of the country have on their tv's?". I took this to mean that you didn't get around other areas of the US. If you are now telling me you do get around, well, that's fine (though then I don't understand what you're previous comment was meant to tell me).

I was trying to indicate that the US adverts I've seen in the past 6 months didn't show much evidence of greening, but, as I said, "my recent experiences of the US are limited to Missouri and ... Chicago O'Hare". No pot or kettle here about sample sizes - and note that the only reason I mentioned visiting the US and seeing car adverts at all was because you said that you knew that I wasn't from the US and therefore seemed to infer that I wouldn't have seen recent American car ads. That was an erroneous assumption, but it really isn't a big deal.

So let's be clear. I'm completely open that my recent experiences of US car ads are limited. You appeared to indicate that yours were limited to just the DC area, and I expressed moderate surprise at that, but said it was of no real matter. Frankly, I think the greening of card ads is pretty inconsequential, and wasn't looking to make any particularly weighty point about it.

Honestly, mate, I don't see what's condescending about what I wrote, and think you've must have inferred some insult which I didn't mean to convey.

Happy to agree Arnold is doing something. I don't tend to see California as representative of the US though (or of anything other than California). So while Arnold's approach is welcome, I don't see it as being a trend-setter for the rest of the country. Do you ?

 

[JerichoHill]

@@Lambert Simnel

Err, I was responding to your comment, "Im speaking about the Washington DC area. How could I know what other areas of the country have on their tv's?". I took this to mean that you didn't get around other areas of the US. If you are now telling me you do get around, well, that's fine (though then I don't understand what you're previous comment was meant to tell me).
--I see a good bit of the USA, but being that I live in DC, that's the only experience I have enough of to speak on. Apologies for confusion.


So let's be clear. I'm completely open that my recent experiences of US car ads are limited. You appeared to indicate that yours were limited to just the DC area, and I expressed moderate surprise at that, but said it was of no real matter. Frankly, I think the greening of card ads is pretty inconsequential, and wasn't looking to make any particularly weighty point about it.
--Well, if you look at what's going on with Hybrid Car models (Particularly the sales rates on Toyota's Prius, you can see that consumers are flocking to hybrids and efficient cars mainly for wallet reasons, but they really, really care about their wallets now. I love how selfishness can be used to get a good result)

Honestly, mate, I don't see what's condescending about what I wrote, and think you've must have inferred some insult which I didn't mean to convey.
--Maybe I did. We'll chalk to up to overseas communication bungling on account of tied wires.

Happy to agree Arnold is doing something. I don't tend to see California as representative of the US though (or of anything other than California). So while Arnold's approach is welcome, I don't see it as being a trend-setter for the rest of the country.
--California is a trend-setting state. I think its economy is larger than many European countries. It is in many ways a weatherbell for other things to come. 50+ electoral votes and lots of money makes it a powerhouse just like NY and TX. It's got alot of pull.
--And from my vantage point inside the behemoth that is the us government, green is in now. How long will it last? Mainly as long as the politicos feel threatened by the environment and foreign powers.
--The drive for more greener tech is in part lead by national security. Fine by me.

 

[Lambert Simnel]

--California is a trend-setting state. I think its economy is larger than many European countries. It is in many ways a weatherbell for other things to come. 50+ electoral votes and lots of money makes it a powerhouse just like NY and TX. It's got alot of pull.

Well, CA is certainly big and significant. From the outside, however, I don't really see that where CA leads, the other states follow, at least not to any degree. Actually, from my limited () chatting to people in MO & NY, California doing something is virtually confirmation that the rest of the States shouldn't do it.

This, I suspect is just a difference of opinion we'll have to accept.

--And from my vantage point inside the behemoth that is the us government, green is in now. How long will it last? Mainly as long as the politicos feel threatened by the environment and foreign powers.

From a vantage point on the sidelines, it looks just like tinkering around the edges so far, rather than the significant change which is needed. I respect your "insider's track" viewpoint, but, of course, sometimes when you're up close, small things can appear to be pretty big.

 

[Narz]

Twenty years ago, I had already planted more trees than just about anybody else in here.

I'm way ahead of y'all.

What types of trees?

oh and to you too Jericho on the garden. I plan to grow an awesome garden myself this summer (I'm finally in a location where I can).

 

[Old Spice]

Money trees.

 

[Whomp]

Actually, in Megatrends written in the 80's John Naisbitt coined the term bellwether state for states where most social invention in America occurs.
They included California, Conneticut, Florida, Colorado and Washington state. Watch them and it's likely you'll see other states follow.

I think Megatrends 2010 said the tide towards conscious capitalism will occur and I see it happening all over.

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

I definately think the trend is moving green. Last year was the first year I've seen the military with tons of articles and discussions about it.

 

[Whomp]

I definately think the trend is moving green. Last year was the first year I've seen the military with tons of articles and discussions about it.

It's interesting that you mention this because I've read a research piece that suggests the military has been interviewing auto parts companies about hybridization to make the convoys more reliable, efficient and faster. A pentagon study found that fuel accounted for 70% of tonnage in supply convoys. The other interesting development is with the Abrams tank. The research piece explained the Abrams runs on turbines that were developed in the 60's and it burns a gallon per mile. It even burns 14 gallons an hour when its idle.

This along with the commercial fleets converting (police, taxi, med. heavy load trucks, auto rental, buses) will have a dramatic impact on the price of hybrids since the economies of scale will collapse the price difference.